Question about going through proper channels


secretsister
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Hi,

I haven't posted in quite awhile. I've been going through a very tough situation with an abusive marriage.

I'm struggling with the fact that my abusive (ex)husband is being enabled by local leaders. What I read from prophets and from church doctrine and what I see happening are two very different things.

I strongly believe that enabling someone to continue in sin does a disservice to that person as it does not lead to being humbled and seeking repentance. I also feel it does a disservice to those who may be the next victim.

I have spoken to my stake president. I am not satisfied with what I was told nor with what is being done about the situation. I am having no luck in finding out who I can go to next. I am thinking that it would be the area president, but I can't find out who that is or how to write to him. I discovered that writing to Church Headquarters only gets your letter sent right back to your stake president, which feels like a betrayal.

President Gordon B. Hinckley

I quote from our Church Handbook of Instructions: “The Church’s position is that abuse cannot be tolerated in any form. Those who abuse … are subject to Church discipline. They should not be given Church callings and may not have a temple recommend.

I simply need to write a letter to someone of authority and get an explanation as to why it is OK to abuse me. I was told that because he answered the temple recommend questions correctly, he was given the recommend. The fact that they know he lied made no difference. To me, it means I am not important, as a woman in the Lord's church.

Does anyone know how to reach the area authority for NY?

Thanks,

Secretsister

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If you're out and safe, what your ex does is no longer part of your sphere. If he lies to get his recommend, and lies to avoid consequences in the short term, he will face long term consequences that are much greater.

I can't imagine what it's like to see him "get away with" abuse. :( I'm sorry things aren't more fair. It probably feels like your local leaders don't have your back, which is really sad. I pray you have family or close friends who can help you through.

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Guest mormonmusic

As much I feel pain for the unjustice you must be feeling, it would be best for you inner peace to leave your husband's temple recommend status to the Lord. If he's your ex, it sounds like he's not imuch n your life anymore, so focusing on whether he has a temple recommend will only disturb your inner peace.

Now, I don't want to appear to be dismissing your sense of rightness about what kind of men should hold temple recommends in the Church. Or seem to dismiss how seeing such apparent injustice can irk a person.

At the same time, I undersatnd how focusing on things outside of your control can be maddening. So, I think you might consider letting go of it.

And you're right, letters up the food chain usually are sent right back to the appropriate local leader. My wife wrote about injustice that happened in our Church experience years ago (to Church headquarters) and she got a 'form letter" back. That was just as disconcerting as the issue she wrote to the headquarters about. It only inflamed the issue for her.

I'd hate to see the same happen to you.

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My wife's ex was abusive and did many things during and after the marriage worthy of church discipline. However, many of his bishops and stake presidents did nothing about it. We learned to not worry about it, as long as it did not directly affect us. Eventually, his sins caught up with him and he was excommunicated, etc.

You have done your part in discussing it with Church leaders. Leave it to them and God now. If God chooses not to do anything about it right now, he will eventually.

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He is my ex as of a week ago. He was abusive in our marriage. He came highly recommended by my priesthood leaders when I began dating him. Now, I find out that he was very abusive to his first wife and children.... no church leaders believed her.

They say they believe me, but the do nothing to stop him. I worry because we teach our daughters, from the time they are 12 to "look for a man who can take you to the temple." What we allow, we promote. I feel like the prophets are trying to speak out against abuse but it is not filtering down to local leaders.

They seem to be saying that it is OK to keep the gate open wide letting the wolves in to eat our sheep.

I understand the need to let it go and let the Lord deal with it. I also feel a responsibility to the next dear sister who will trust in that recommend when he takes her to the temple on a date. I can tell you that his abuse was NOT the most damaging thing to me. The way the church has handled it is shaking my faith like never before. It has become difficult for me to feel the Lord will take care of it, after all, he is a man too. They seem to really stick together.

If I can simply make sure the area president is aware of what has happened, then I can let it go and move on.... regardless of what is done. Is that too much to ask?

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Sister? I'm sorry that you're feeling like the church is flawed because of the stance taken here.

However, unless you have proof or witnesses to the abuse, the church cannot act on a single disgruntled spouses accusations.

You're right - What happened to you was inexcusable. A husband and wife have to work together, but now that they are separating, it is important for the church to only take sides if incontrovertible proof is brought forth.

Too many people would take advantage of the situation and make claims against their ex in order to make their soon-to-be-exes life miserable. It doesn't make it easier on you, but it should let you know that it's nothing personal. The church cannot and must not act upon a single persons words.

I wish you luck.

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I understand the need to let it go and let the Lord deal with it. I also feel a responsibility to the next dear sister

Are not those two back-to-back statements contradictory? Honestly, I'm not convinced you understand the need to let it go. If you can't let it go now, I question if you really can let it go when the Area President is written. I'm sorry, but I don't think you truly see how this is cankering you.

I also feel a responsibility to the next dear sister who will trust in that recommend when he takes her to the temple on a date.

Well, therein lies the problem. Relying on a checklist approach rather than truly courting and getting to know him. If she fails to do her own due diligence, then that is her problem, not yours. And whatever you may say will likely be discounted as a disgruntled ex with an ax to grind, and you will only be shooting yourself in the foot. If the next woman is not wise enough to avoid the "checklist approach", then she will end up following the same path and marrying him also. That is her problem, not yours. It's not just about him. It is also about the women that choose to marry him and his personality/style.

I can tell you that his abuse was NOT the most damaging thing to me. The way the church has handled it is shaking my faith like never before.

Blunt reality check time sister. Not because I enjoy being harsh, but that I feel you likely won't see it without bluntness. What a mortal organization does or does not do cannot make choices for you and how you feel. Only YOU can make the choices of your reactions, your feelings, your doubts. What the organization does (remember - the church is just a mode for the perfect gospel - that doesn't mean the church is perfect) is not what is shaking your faith. It is your choices of how you react that is shaking your faith. And until you see that, you will continue to push yourself away. It is a slippery slope you are on. Humility and meekness are in order.

It has become difficult for me to feel the Lord will take care of it, after all, he is a man too. They seem to really stick together.

Ouch! Not a very nice judgment - esp to the men that have already responded with sympathetic-towards-you and condemning-towards-ex posts. That you would choose to think of the Lord - who has descended below them all - in such a manner is the root of the problem, not a symptom of the problem.

The coddling and sweet (and very good) replies didn't seem to get your attention. Perhaps a different perspective will help. It's up to you sister. You have your agency, you have your choice. You can choose to continue to let this destroy you, or you can actually let it go, and focus on YOU.

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Guest mormonmusic

I understand the need to let it go and let the Lord deal with it. I also feel a responsibility to the next dear sister who will trust in that recommend when he takes her to the temple on a date.

Secretsister -- I hope what I'm about to say isn't offensive to you. I mean it kindly.

I've also been really disturbed by the behavior of other people in Church and non-Church contexts, and have wanted to go up the chain of command to get a satisfactory answer at times. One has to look closely inside and decide -- am I really doing this for the good of other sisters? Or am I mostly meeting my desire to see him punished, or to otherwise validate my feelings (which, I may add, I already consider valid, and don't condemn you for feeling in any way).

I believe you are probably hurting a lot right now, and coping with a lot of changes, and this desire to continue up the ladder may well be partly a result of that, and possibly, less of a desire to benefit some other sister who may encounter your ex-husband.

I can tell you that his abuse was NOT the most damaging thing to me. The way the church has handled it is shaking my faith like never before. It has become difficult for me to feel the Lord will take care of it, after all, he is a man too. They seem to really stick together.

If I can simply make sure the area president is aware of what has happened, then I can let it go and move on.... regardless of what is done. Is that too much to ask?

If you feel it will help you move on, you could try this, but I'm afraid it will only lengthen the amount of time you spend reliving your disagreement for the decision to give him a temple recommend. You will invest emotional energy in writing the letter, finding who to send it to, and then waiting for a response. Thoughts that are currently affecting your inner peace will be fueled by the investment you make in trying to bring a sense of justice to the situation.

You might not even get one, for all I know, and that will even make you angrier. Or you may get a neutral response citing the same thing you've already heard here -- that it's in the hands of your local leaders, in which case you'll feel even worse that another attempt at justice hasn't been successful.

Also, if telling the area presidency is enough for you to just tell them and let it go -- can't simply knowing the local leaders know be enough? Regardless of their decision?

Finally, regarding the men sticking together -- try not to let this slip into blanket loss of faith in men. These leaders have to try to make sense out of what both sides of the story are saying, often when the ideas are in conflict. And ultimately, the Lord will be the judge of both the priesthood leader and your ex-husband.

Finally, regarding your faith. I hear you. I too have experienced challenges to my faith when leaders don't behave the way I think they should have given their espoused values. It hurts.

Reflect on the goodness of the Church that attracted to you in it the first place, the positive influence it can have on your kids, and all the other personal reasons you were attracted to it in the first place -- that don't bear on this situation. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I hope you take my comments as they are meant -- with sensitivity to your tender feelings during this difficult time, but also with a view to helping you get your inner peace back more swiftly than perhaps the course of action you're considering.

By the way, I don't know who the Area Presidency are -- but I would try calling the church head office in Salt Lake to see what information they will give. If I knew it, I'd give it to you, because ultimately, you will do what you decide to do -- and then draw your own conclusions.

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Secretsister ~ I have read your postings and the replies you’ve received and I see great points in both. It is very difficult to live through an abusive relationship and then watch them continue to remain in good standings and hold something as dear and precious as the priesthood.

I know you understand it is simply your word against his regarding this abuse. However I noticed you wrote your history with him was the same as his first wife.

In church discipline one question that is asked (regarding a hearing) is if the case is a difficult one.

When someone comes forth with a full confession and desires to repent, it is not considered a difficult case. However, when the person has two or more witnesses and he continues to deny the charges, it is deemed difficult.

Have you spoken to the first wife? Are there civil (police or court) records of his abuse? Are there any court actions (counseling or restraining orders) on him?

My brother came out of a very abusive relationship. His ex-wife moved on and married a return missionary almost ten years her younger. She continues to mentally abuse/manipulate their children and the church. She lies at every turn and unfortunately, the bishop has done little more than talk with her about the allegations. My brother refuses to take the paperwork he has to the church to show her true colors. He says by doing so it would only make things worst for the kids, (they are all teenagers).

I’m just as mad at him as I am her Bishop, but she is so good with her lies and manipulation.

The kids see through her and know how to lay low. I know come that Day of Judgment, she will have to stand and face her lies.

Good luck with what you are going through.

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Thank you for the replies. You may have no idea what it means to be abused and I will try to understand when your advise seems callous. Of course, you do not have the details and it is difficult for me to give a comprehensive explanation in such a forum. I apolagize if my statements seemed "not nice" or contradictory. Again, if you have not been in my situation, you can't possibly understand.

For those who spoke of leaders needing proof: I am the 2nd wife he's done this too (with the same stake president.) He admitted physical abuse to our branch president, there are police reports and I've needed church welfare assistance. The stake president went to him about paying the bills and meeting his obligations and he refused. They also have a copy of the state's findings from the child abuse. They also have a copy of a letter he wrote to me which was very abusive as well as a tape recording of his verbal abuse. We also saw a church counselor who witnessed some things.

To those who say it isn't my business to worry about the next victim or that I should let it go and let the appointed authorities handle it, I wonder what would happen to our world if we took that attitude with everything in life. Maybe we should not stand up and speak out against any injustice we see in our life? Just because I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true and Jesus is the Christ doesn't mean I should not stand up for what is right and speak out for what is wrong with how the organization of the church is actually functioning.

The whole "checklist" post is uber naive. I certainly did not marry someone simply because he had a temple recommend. He is a sociopath. If you have never been made aware of knowing one, then you have no way of understanding. They are very good at deception. They play the part very, very well and are slippery. They can convince just about anyone of how truly good they are. Yes, it is true that another woman will have to make her own decision about him. I just don't see how it can be justified to allow him one more tool in his arsenal. Men like him "hide in the light." They behave in Christ-like ways, serving others, dressing the part, even shedding a tear at the appropriate moment. Then, when the hook is in, they let their wrath out on you.

It seems that WmLee may understand such a person. They are hard to pin down and hard to catch. To me, just one more reason to do something about it when at last you do have enough evidence to do so.

President Gordon B. Hinckley quoted:

“The purposes of Church discipline are to (1) save the souls of transgressors; (2) protect the innocent; and (3) safeguard the … integrity … of the Church” (General Handbook of Instructions, March 1989, page 10–11).

I believe that ignoring the evidence and not pursuing this, the local leaders are failing all three of these purposes. 1) In spite of all of it, I do love him. He is ill and refuses to see it. He needs to be humbled, to even have a chance at seeing the need for repentance. He is being allowed to "live forever in his sins." 2) I have not been protected and his next victim is not being protected. To the one who seems to think it is "her problem", President Hinckley didn't seem to agree with you. 3) When the bottom begins to crumble, the top is in jeopardy of falling. Whether or not I want "revenge" as some of you judge, doesn't change the fact that the government of the church, in such a case, is not functioning the way the Lord wants it to. If individual saints do not care about the integrity of the church, it leaves me wondering why.

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Maybe we should not stand up and speak out against any injustice we see in our life?

Their point is that you shouldn't let your righteous indignation lead you away from the church, and it does happen. From the minor he insulted me and the Bishop didn't take him to task to the more serious as your situation. People can't do anything about the situation on the ground so to speak, so people are offering what advice they can towards your spiritual health, and considering you took a pot shot at the Savior with one comment it is hard to not see you as being eaten alive inside by all this. What are they going to suggest? Focus even more on your suffered injustices, let them canker in your soul? What are you going to do if you never see a resolution that is satisfactory to you?

Edited by Dravin
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I completely understand where you are coming from, I have never been in an abusive relationshiip, but I am actually getting that its less to do with him and more to do with concern for anyone else caught up with him?

My daughter was abused at church, I was told that by informing my local leaders I had done all I can, but its not enough it can happen again to another child especially as the person concerned is the Primary President. I have no anger or hate for her but my heart sinks that she is still teaching primary on her own or with her daughter in a room without glass in the doors and until i have done all I can to prevent another child experiencing it i haven't done enough. I feel the same way about my abusive neighbours it has to be stopped for as many people as possible/

Edited by Elgama
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Hi,

I haven't posted in quite awhile. I've been going through a very tough situation with an abusive marriage.

I'm struggling with the fact that my abusive (ex)husband is being enabled by local leaders. What I read from prophets and from church doctrine and what I see happening are two very different things.

I strongly believe that enabling someone to continue in sin does a disservice to that person as it does not lead to being humbled and seeking repentance. I also feel it does a disservice to those who may be the next victim.

I have spoken to my stake president. I am not satisfied with what I was told nor with what is being done about the situation. I am having no luck in finding out who I can go to next. I am thinking that it would be the area president, but I can't find out who that is or how to write to him. I discovered that writing to Church Headquarters only gets your letter sent right back to your stake president, which feels like a betrayal.

President Gordon B. Hinckley

I simply need to write a letter to someone of authority and get an explanation as to why it is OK to abuse me. I was told that because he answered the temple recommend questions correctly, he was given the recommend. The fact that they know he lied made no difference. To me, it means I am not important, as a woman in the Lord's church.

Does anyone know how to reach the area authority for NY?

Thanks,

Secretsister

PM me your city/state. If you comfortable, you can talk to your Stake President.

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Thank you for the replies. You may have no idea what it means to be abused and I will try to understand when your advise seems callous. Of course, you do not have the details and it is difficult for me to give a comprehensive explanation in such a forum. I apolagize if my statements seemed "not nice" or contradictory. Again, if you have not been in my situation, you can't possibly understand.

For those who spoke of leaders needing proof: I am the 2nd wife he's done this too (with the same stake president.) He admitted physical abuse to our branch president, there are police reports and I've needed church welfare assistance. The stake president went to him about paying the bills and meeting his obligations and he refused. They also have a copy of the state's findings from the child abuse. They also have a copy of a letter he wrote to me which was very abusive as well as a tape recording of his verbal abuse. We also saw a church counselor who witnessed some things.

To those who say it isn't my business to worry about the next victim or that I should let it go and let the appointed authorities handle it, I wonder what would happen to our world if we took that attitude with everything in life. Maybe we should not stand up and speak out against any injustice we see in our life? Just because I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true and Jesus is the Christ doesn't mean I should not stand up for what is right and speak out for what is wrong with how the organization of the church is actually functioning.

The whole "checklist" post is uber naive. I certainly did not marry someone simply because he had a temple recommend. He is a sociopath. If you have never been made aware of knowing one, then you have no way of understanding. They are very good at deception. They play the part very, very well and are slippery. They can convince just about anyone of how truly good they are. Yes, it is true that another woman will have to make her own decision about him. I just don't see how it can be justified to allow him one more tool in his arsenal. Men like him "hide in the light." They behave in Christ-like ways, serving others, dressing the part, even shedding a tear at the appropriate moment. Then, when the hook is in, they let their wrath out on you.

It seems that WmLee may understand such a person. They are hard to pin down and hard to catch. To me, just one more reason to do something about it when at last you do have enough evidence to do so.

President Gordon B. Hinckley quoted:

“The purposes of Church discipline are to (1) save the souls of transgressors; (2) protect the innocent; and (3) safeguard the … integrity … of the Church” (General Handbook of Instructions, March 1989, page 10–11).

I believe that ignoring the evidence and not pursuing this, the local leaders are failing all three of these purposes. 1) In spite of all of it, I do love him. He is ill and refuses to see it. He needs to be humbled, to even have a chance at seeing the need for repentance. He is being allowed to "live forever in his sins." 2) I have not been protected and his next victim is not being protected. To the one who seems to think it is "her problem", President Hinckley didn't seem to agree with you. 3) When the bottom begins to crumble, the top is in jeopardy of falling. Whether or not I want "revenge" as some of you judge, doesn't change the fact that the government of the church, in such a case, is not functioning the way the Lord wants it to. If individual saints do not care about the integrity of the church, it leaves me wondering why.

I can attest, you need support right now.

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I completely understand where you are coming from, I have never been in an abusive relationshiip, but I am actually getting that its less to do with him and more to do with concern for anyone else caught up with him?

My daughter was abused at church, I was told that by informing my local leaders I had done all I can, but its not enough it can happen again to another child especially as the person concerned is the Primary President. I have no anger or hate for her but my heart sinks that she is still teaching primary on her own or with her daughter in a room without glass in the doors and until i have done all I can to prevent another child experiencing it i haven't done enough. I feel the same way about my abusive neighbours it has to be stopped for as many people as possible/

I'm not sure you have done all you can. If we are talking physical abuse, then you should have gone to the appropriate civil authorties. Believe me this gets the Church's attention like nothing else. I'll also apply advice this to the OP.

In the past the Church has been subject to many lawsuits where physical or sexual abuse has been ignored by Church authorities. BUT you must report the abuse to civil authorities.

Edited by mrmarklin
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SecretSister, Its good to hear from you again. But I'm heartbroken that everything has gotten worse.

I do not understand how Melchezedik Priesthood holders get away with some of what they do. My sister is in a similar situation. Her Stake President recongnizes the problem but seems powerless to stop the continued abuse. (He can't abuse her to her face so he's using the courts to abuse her.) My husband has an exfriend who openly had an affair with the wife of a family he was Home Teacher to. His family was destroyed. Her family was destroyed. Nobody was disciplined.

I would make the problems as public as possible. I would also write to the First Presidency and explain the issues with the Stake President ...at least try again. I don't know how to find out who your Area Seventy is but I'll look into it.

applepansy

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To the OP:

I'm sure that your ex puts on a pretty good act when he's being interviewed. Think blubbering and tears among other indicators of "true confessions".

However the inexperience of church leaders in your area, as well as their desire to see the best in people, and wanting to accept "true repentance" seems to be overwhelming their judgement. These types of behaviors are not easily stopped or repented of.

Locally we had a Stake President who was on a major metropolitan police force, and none of the above happened AFAIK with him tolerating abusers. One in particular whose case I know about personally will have to wait until a new Stake president or judgement day. The then current president was having none of his act.

You have done all you can, unfortunately, and will be blessed for it.

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I'm not sure you have done all you can. If we are talking physical abuse, then you should have gone to the appropriate civil authorties. Believe me this gets the Church's attention like nothing else. I'll also apply advice this to the OP.

In the past the Church has been subject to many lawsuits where physical or sexual abuse has been ignored by Church authorities. BUT you must report the abuse to civil authorities.

its not physical - it involved things like trapping her in a toilet cubicle and telling her how bad she was, humiliating her in class, telling her not to talk to Mummy about it etc. It was a year ago and my daughter is only 6, by the time she really let us have a small idea of what had happened she was also starting move on and recover, my daughter is safe right now, and whilst I have to consider others she comes first and I don't think reopening it for her by making her go to court etc would be helpful to her. This time last year she was having panic attacks that were investigated as seizures they were so severe. Now we don't have them, she is beginning to smile again the little girl I had at 2 is returning. She endured nearly 3 years of this and we had no idea.

Edited by Elgama
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To the OP:

However the inexperience of church leaders in your area, as well as their desire to see the best in people, and wanting to accept "true repentance" seems to be overwhelming their judgement. These types of behaviors are not easily stopped or repented of.

In speaking with my stake president, this is exactly what I felt. He is a very caring, giving man who loves to see the good in all people. That is admirable, but it can be damaging to all involved. As with our children, we need a healthy balance between mercy/ love and discipline. If we did not hold them accountable for their actions, they would not learn to be responsible adults.

If I felt that I have done all I could, I would let this go. As I've tried to say before, after I put it in the hands of a higher priesthood authority, then I can let it go.

Secretsister

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Their point is that you shouldn't let your righteous indignation lead you away from the church, and it does happen. From the minor he insulted me and the Bishop didn't take him to task to the more serious as your situation. People can't do anything about the situation on the ground so to speak, so people are offering what advice they can towards your spiritual health, and considering you took a pot shot at the Savior with one comment it is hard to not see you as being eaten alive inside by all this. What are they going to suggest? Focus even more on your suffered injustices, let them canker in your soul? What are you going to do if you never see a resolution that is satisfactory to you?

Yes, I am upset, hurt and angry. Yes, I am in the midst of grieving and recovery after severe abuse. Yes, I have anger even at Heavenly Father for the fact that He confirmed this marriage was "right" to me. (That is another topic, in which I do not need advice. I am successfully working through my grief.) I do not recall ever saying anything about leaving the church. I am NOT being eaten alive inside. In fact, I am beginning to heal now that I have gotten myself out of the abusive situation. Being told to "stay and forgive" almost destroyed me. In fact, my last step in this healing process is to know, in my heart, that I have done ALL in my power to see the government of the Lord's church work properly. Thus the request for help in contacting the area president.

Secretsister

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SecretSister, Its good to hear from you again. But I'm heartbroken that everything has gotten worse.

I do not understand how Melchezedik Priesthood holders get away with some of what they do. My sister is in a similar situation. Her Stake President recongnizes the problem but seems powerless to stop the continued abuse. (He can't abuse her to her face so he's using the courts to abuse her.) My husband has an exfriend who openly had an affair with the wife of a family he was Home Teacher to. His family was destroyed. Her family was destroyed. Nobody was disciplined.

I would make the problems as public as possible. I would also write to the First Presidency and explain the issues with the Stake President ...at least try again. I don't know how to find out who your Area Seventy is but I'll look into it.

applepansy

Hi Applepansy! I do miss our chats. Life just got too difficult to handle for a bit. When we last spoke, I didn't think it could get worse, but it did. The divorce process was even worse. I'm in counseling for domestic violence and that is helping a lot.

I do not expect church leaders to have any sort of super human power to stop the abuse or wave a magic wand and make him repent. Nor do I expect they could change the way abusers manipulate the courts (that is happening to me too). They can only hold the abuser accountable within the authority they are given. That's all I would like to see....

(I believe our area authority is David L. Cook. I'm just not sure how to contact him.)

Secretsister

Edited by secretsister
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They also have a copy of the state's findings from the child abuse.

Wow, he abused his own child as well? My goodness, my heart goes out to you. I am so happy that you and your little ones are now safe. I think you have EVERY POSSIBLE RIGHT to ensure that he is held accountable for his actions so he does not hurt anyone anymore.

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