My Girlfriends Father Had A "Dream"

[jpayne39]

I have been dating a wonderful girl for 7 months. She is perfect. She is 24 and I am 28. We both are return missionaries and are trying to prepare for marriage.

Here is the problem: Her father had a dream when she was 14 where he "envisioned" the man she would marry and was told his name would be "Mark." My name is not "Mark." After we had been dating about 2 months, her dad called her up and basically said he could not sleep and the Spirit told him that I wasn't "the one" for her. Also, I didn't match any of the characteristics of his "vision." She has a respect for her father, so she broke up with me without telling me why. This lasted about 10 days before both of us were so miserable without each other that we got back together. She has not told her father that we have been dating for the last 5 months. When she visits on Sundays, her parents suspect we are dating and make sly comments like "We hope you aren't dating (insert my name). It would be a waste of time. Remember your fathers dream."

We are both completely temple worthy. I have received a confirmation that she is marriage material and I should be proposing soon. I can't because of her parents. I know for 100% certainty that her dads dream is bunk. It feels horrible and evil to me when we talk about it.

Another thing: Her dad is a bishop and tells her that he still has stewardship over her and can receive revelation for her even though she is 24, a return missionary, college graduate, and doesn't live at home.

So here is the question: How do her and I resolve this so we can move forward with an engagement?

[jpayne39]

Also, has anybody heard of any church talks that would help her dad?

[Mahone]

Wow... I've heard many reasons for breaking up with someone, but that's got to be up in the top ten somewhere, if indeed what she is saying happened is the truth.

Personally (and this is just my opinion) it sounds like her dad has his mind set on "I am right, and I will control my daughter accordingly". What you say won't make any difference, it'll most likely make him worse.

If she doesn't realise this, or refuses to do anything about it, you don't have a lot of choice but to move on.

[Suzie]

There are several red flags on this story:

1. Her willingness to dump you so easily the first time just because her father had a dream? And it's not like the dream was about you being a serial killer. What will happen when you two get married? Will she run to meet every wish and whim of her father? It's very concerning. Remember when you two get married, you will now become family. The rest, including her father will become relatives.

2. Personally, I think her father just does not want her to get married. I believe if the guy Mark comes around he will make a story saying it's not the Mark of his dreams or some sort of non-sense.

If you're willing to marry this woman despite all this AND she is TRULY willing to stand by you and no one else no matter what AND you happen to live MILES AND MILES away from her father then sure, go for it.

If not, run. It's trouble.

You need a VERY LONG talk with your girlfriend.

[JThimm88]

What a cruddy situation. Honestly, if my husband were in your position when we had been dating, I would have hoped he'd propose anyway. Keep in mind, that if I was 24 and also a returned missionary, I'd probably feel mature not only temporally but spiritually to be able to say yes or no to a proposal of my own choice. Isn't that what we have agency for anyway? Her father simply seems to be denying her the use of her agency by misusing his bishopric authority. I can see him coming from a fatherly standpoint as maybe "worrying," so to say, about her and her choices, but by him basically "pulling rank" and stating that he's the bishop is just silly, even if he might be able to receive revelation for her. She, being her own being, is also able to receive revelation for herself. So, in any case, I'd say pray, pray, and pray some more -- if she's absolutely sure that you're the one for her, and vice versa, then go for it. Only God can give you two the answers you're looking for, answers directed for YOU and HER, not her dad.

[jpayne39]

We have talked at length about it. We are on the same page. When we broke up, she had a very trusting view of her father and that he could do no wrong. She honestly believed in the vision. It was something that she has been told for 10 years. She honestly believed since she was a little girl that she would marry a brown haired man named Mark. She has now, because of the experience dating me, dropped all confidence in the "vision." She knows it is not right. She has talked to her singles ward bishop who has told her the same.

So now we are a team trying to approach her parents. So the question is, a letter? An email? Face-to-face? Her alone? Both of us?

[Suzie]

Face to face of course. BOTH of you. You're talking about somethings serious. You're 28, you really, really need to ensure you all are in the same page as you say because when the real pressure starts back with her father, there is where you will know for sure where she stands. All is nice when the pressure isn't there but when it comes you will know.

Personally, I believe the conversation should be about INFORMING them about the relationship and plans for marriage, not about asking what they think or asking their permission because it's obvious they don't agree with it. So basically you guys will be just fair and square by letting them know your plans.

Be ready for some pressure, specially the Bishop-Father taking over the conversation and trying to pulling it to his own agenda.

I advise that if the conversation quickly turns sour, both of you should leave. Don't stay there and create or continue an argument.

My two cents.

[Suzie]

Keep in my mind I am giving this counsel because I have been in a similar situation. I don't regret one bit of my decision but wasn't easy AT ALL. It took me years to recover and some family members never forgave me for my decision even though the person I married was a gentle RM, kind and honest man. Your girlfriend will needs LOTS of support from you if she is willing to go ahead with the plans despite her father's wishes.

[Wingnut]

The fact that her father is her father gives him the right to receive revelation on her behalf. It has nothing to do with his being her bishop. Neither, however, give him the right to rule her life or tell her she's not allowed to marry someone. At least not in this country. What a crackpot.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I suggest you dye your hair brown. Also do some research and see if your name can be justified as the name "Mark" in another language. Failing that, change your name to Mark legally, or put it in your middle name. Or, start using it as your nickname to keep it simple.

Let him know that this represents your respect for his dream, and for him as a father-in-law, and that the purpose of the dream was to see what lengths you would go to, given the love you have for his daughter.

I'm being a little tongue in cheek - I'm sorry. Your story reminded me of the movie "Only You" with Robert Downey Jr. The main character, a woman named Faith, has this spiritual experience that she will marry someone named Daemon Bradley. She goes searching for him and in the process, meets Downey Junior. They are madly in love with each other, but then she rejects him because he has the wrong name. I won't spoil the movie; it ends well and is one of my favorites.

Personally, I'm not convinced her father is on the right track. Father's have seen visions of their children's future; this has happened in the Book of Mormon, but I've never heard of this happening to a rank and file member of the Church; and it feels wrong.

And by the way, what are the odds your intended will actually find a brown haired person named Mark who meets all the other strict criteria a devote Mormon has for marriage? I honestly think his dream is limiting her choices. And also, what about Brigham Young's comment that "any two people can make a marraige work provided they live the gospel?".

And by the way, it wouldn't surprise me if he comes out with a different interpretation of his dream if she puts her foot down and marries you -- particularly if it works out.

Edited June 13, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Guest mormonmusic]

So here is the question: How do her and I resolve this so we can move forward with an engagement?

By the way, I did some work in interpretation of dreams when I was studying Psychology. Did you know that we often substitute people in our dreams for other people? And also, that we tend to dream in symbols and allegories?

Remember the tree of life in Lehi's dream? Dreams aren't always literal -- is it possible your girlfriend can help your father interpret the dream figuratively, and help hiim see you meet all the spiritual characteristcs? Or, is there someone in his past named Mark who has many of the characteristics any father would like to see in a son-in-law? And is it possible that you personally have these personal characteristics -- and your girlfriend could point this out to your intended father-in-law?

One thing, I'd try for a reasonable time to get the father on side. Prisonchaplain, a regular poster here, has his own story about what it took to bring in-laws into agreement on a marriage they initially disagreed with. Perhaps you could PM him to participate and share his thoughts.

I have to confess, this is probably the most fascinating opening posts I've ever read here.

Edited June 13, 2010 by mormonmusic

[hordak]

I would get scriptural on him and ask if Jesus wasn't the right one since he was prophesied to be called Emmanuel ? (a name never used for him)

[NeuroTypical]

This is the easiest thing in the world. You can't marry her unless she rejects her father's 'vision', and if she won't reject her father's vision, you shouldn't be marrying her anyway, unless you want him as a stepfather, which you don't. And for pete's sake, if she can't do it on her own, you shouldn't be marrying her anyway.

I know a whole lot of infatuation and yearning and emotion confuses the issue for you, but really, it is as simple as that.

LM

[Elgama]

My Father in Law knew my husband and I were going to get married before we did, we weren't even dating lol, but then we both had our own revelation on the mater that confirmed his,. Your prospective Father in Law doesn't have that. Have you both had blessings?

[MarginOfError]

Well, for starters, her father is a crack pot. His vision may have been totally accurate and spot on. The Lord may fully intend for her to marry a man named Mark. But his unwillingness to allow his daughter to choose her own path is unrighteous dominion.

He has the right to receive revelation about his daughter. He does not have the right to control his daughter's agency.

However, keep this in mind. Her father is a crack pot. If you marry her, you'll have to deal with a crack pot father-in-law the rest of his life. And odds are, he'll be just as involved in her life, your life, and your children's life for just as long.

Take a word from the wise: crack pots make lousy in-laws.

[jpayne39]

Holy smokes! I have to show her "Only You." Maybe I should play her dad's game and say,"Sweetie, I don't know what this movie is about, but the Spirit has told me that you and I need to watch it."

I agree with the counsel given by you guys that the meeting needs to be more of an "informing" meeting as opposed to a "permision-asking" meeting.

Edited June 13, 2010 by jpayne39

[JThimm88]

I feel as though what it comes down to is, are you both spiritually mature enough to know that you want to get sealed in the temple for time and eternity, despite what obstacles (her father's "vision," rough patches with family members) doing so might bring? I'm guessing that both of you, being mature adults and quite able to use your own agency, clearly having a desire to serve in the church (as you're both RMs), that you ARE spiritually mature about the situation. If you feel as though despite what happens temporally that marrying your girlfriend in the temple and being with her in the eternities is going to trump all of the problems it might cause in this life, then you two should be free to use your agency to make a decision that most directly impacts you and your possible eternal companion. It will impact your eternity, who you spend your life with, after all!

I think her father eventually will have to find it in his heart to be a better man about the situation and put aside his "vision" for his daughter. If you're what makes her happy, hopefully he'll be able to understand that and simply want for his daughter to be happy with someone who is clearly steadfast in the gospel.

I don't have children yet, and only got recently married myself, but I'm sure that down the road when I have children and they're grown up and facing this decision in their life, the only thing I'll expect of their prospective mate is that they're constantly learning and growing in the gospel. I'm surprised that her father is holding on to some vision of a guy who may or may not even be a member!

At any rate, LM makes a good point: if she can't reject her father's vision, thus using her own agency to make a choice that is going to impact her most directly, then she probably isn't right for you. Often times, when we get married, we generally make sacrifices. Making the sacrifice of letting her dad down by telling him she doesn't believe in what he sees for her future won't be easy, but if she's had her own revelation through prayer and through temple worship that she should be with you, then she should at least know that the Lord is on her side and she will make it through this rough patch with her dad.

[Gwen]

ok this may be out of place for me to say but since you opened it up on a public forum... lol

if you decide to go forward with plans to marry her get pre-marriage counseling. make sure you have a plan you both understand for keeping this guy in check. you don't want crazy in-laws without a plan before hand. lol

[Guest mormonmusic]

Yes -- that's one thing to consider -- the kind of inlaws they will be. This can be dealt with "somehwat" by putting physical distance between you and the in-laws though, after marriage. It sounds like the father is rather controlling.

If your experience is anything like mine, you'll find the influence of the in-laws doesn't end the day you get married, by the way. Your wife will probably be consulting her father on other issues that come up in your relationship, and their influence will be far reaching into your marriage. And her parents may well be offering advice on your decisons as a couple, even when you don't want it.

Will he also be receiving revelation for his daughter after she becomes your wife?

This was frustrating for me on a number of counts, particularly in the beginning of our marriage. I had a period of unemployment and her parents thought I should get a retail job at a local big box store -- just to keep working -- even though I'd just finished 5 years of schooling and had something different in mind. And working all the time at a low-income job would've left me with less ability to go after the big fish of a job. My wife started leaning on my to take a low-income job just to avoid the stigma of being unemployed -- the attitude of her parents. Well, I hung onto my guns and yes, was unemployed for a few months, but ended up with a pretty good job as a result of my search.

My point -- the in-laws attitudes will permeate your own family culture whether you like it or not. Also, look at the expectations your wife may have of you based on her father's role in the family -- she may well expect the same from you ....

Edited June 13, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Guest mormonmusic]

Also, how would your girlfriend's father-in-law react if she brought home a brown-haired non-member guy named Mark stinking of alcohol and tobacco, cracking bad Mormon jokes, with a set of nasal earrings? Would this change his mind?

Again, I'm being tongue-in-cheek -- sorry.

One thing -- you've been dating her on the quite side for a while -- I wonder what impact that will have on the parents when you two go public with it? Will they feel betrayed? I'm not disagreeing necessarily with the dating quietly, but the question has crossed my mind.

[Gwen]

hahaha i like the idea of playing with him about a guy named mark. i know some guys that would volunteer for the part just for laughs.

[Wingnut]

And also, what about Brigham Young's comment that "any two people can make a marraige work provided they live the gospel?".

I've never heard of Brigham Young making such a statement. I've only ever heard the Spencer W. Kimball one.

I would get scriptural on him and ask if Jesus wasn't the right one since he was prophesied to be called Emmanuel ? (a name never used for him)

Amusing. That almost deserves a laugh, but there isn't one in this forum.

Take a word from the wise: crack pots make lousy in-laws.

Are you saying you have a problem with your in-laws?

[pam]

Careful how you answer that last question MOE

[FairChild]

Yes her father may be given personal revelation for his daughter, but several factors may still come into play. She also may be given personal revelation for herself. Free Agency will allow her to chose if she should or should not follow any revelation. If you don't have, go get your Pat. Blessings. If the two of you decide to marry, go together to inform, not ask permission. Premarital counceling is a must so you can have a plan beforehand to deal with her parents. It will make everything much easier. Besides, what if he is dreaming about Mark, her second husband? Important yet strange thought of the day: Don't drop dead so that could become a possibility.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Besides, what if he is dreaming about Mark, her second husband? Important yet strange thought of the day: Don't drop dead so that could become a possibility.

One other thought -- you really don't know a person until AFTER you marry them. That's why Ben Franklin said "Before marriage, look at your spouse with both eyes wide open; after marriage, with both eyes half shut".

Couples run into difficulties as their marriage progresses -- I think this Mark issue needs to be dealt with in case you hit rough spots later on in your marriage -- you don't want your wife reflecting on the pull of her Dad, and wondering if she should've married this Mark person. People DO turn to their parents when things get rough in their marriage sometimes. Hopefully your wife gets a personal confirmation this is right, as you don't want this Mark your father's dream has created to place doubts in her mind years hence.

I say this because my mother went through this. She gave up an opportunity to marry a man we'll call Andrew. Then, when things got difficult with my Dad, good man that he is, she would always reflect on what would've happened had she married Andrew. I hope my mother's Andrew doesn't become your girlfriend's Mark....