Exaltation vs Love for Christ.

[ronism99403]

When I was investigating the Church, there was one missionary I did not like very much because I thought him haughty and arrogant. During one of our discussions, I asked him why he chose to do good. His answer was so that he might gain exaltation, which was the answer I expected from him. I then told him to ask me the same question, which he did, and to which I answered, "Because I love Jesus." This made him very angry with me and he let me have it with both barrels. My problem is that I still cringe when I hear Latter Day Saints talk about trying to gain exaltation. In my mind, it seems to be for selfish reasons that some LDS members follow the commandments rather than doing so because of their love for Christ. What am I getting wrong here?

Sincerely,

Ron

[Suzie]

I think people in general (and we can put kids as examples) tend to do good when they know there is a reward there waiting at the end. Granted, it would be nice for people to do the right thing out of love for Jesus Christ and their fellowmen, that's the ideal...Unfortunately, not everyone have reached that level of both love and spirituality. I suppose we are all a work in progress.

[Moksha]

What am I getting wrong here?

Sincerely,

Ron

Nothing. Your's was the superior answer and that is perhaps why the missionary reacted so strongly. You have to forgive both young and old people for we sometimes get things wrong.

[john doe]

Why can't you both be right? God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, or exaltation. That exaltation comes through Jesus Christ, who is our savior and redeemer.

[Onhech]

I think it has a lot to do with motivations. Obedience is good, but why we do it really determines what it means. Looking at a motivation spectrum

MOTIVATIONS:

Fear

Reward

Duty

Love

Fear is the weakest motivation. It is conformity like a sponge, it will change but as soon as the pressure is released the sponge pops back into the natural shape with no apparent change. Love is why we should be doing things, that is what Christ came a taught. It provides that lasting change, this motivates what we do when we think no one else is watching. If we do perfectly love, we will obey all the commandments!

[applepansy]

I don't think you can attain Exaltation without Loving Christ. IMHO, the versus doesn't fit. It should be Exaltation AND Loving Christ.

[martybess]

I think there's a big difference between the two answers however the missionary might love the Savior as well but gave you the answer he thought might cause you to think the most. Exaltation is a blessing when understood by investigators brings great joy and excitement while to love the Savior as an answer might not as all christians profess that. You dont know if that missionary didn't love the Savior and I'm guessing that was his reply as well. In my mind I might say the same thing as he said thinking to myself that if I become exalted I will be with God and Christ and that is the only place I want to be with those I love more than life itself.

I do believe though love comes from gratitude and knowledge and once true love is manifest is the greater of the two.

Edited June 17, 2010 by martybess

[Obolus]

My problem is that I still cringe when I hear Latter Day Saints talk about trying to gain exaltation. In my mind, it seems to be for selfish reasons that some LDS members follow the commandments rather than doing so because of their love for Christ. What am I getting wrong here?

We're dealing with a king and his kingdom. Paul says that we are "joint heirs with Christ", meaning that we will share his inheritance. Christ is the same guy who used the parable of the talents to explain his rationale in dealing out stewardship and reward. The revelations Joseph Smith received concerning the breakdown of the Kingdom of God in Section 76 of the D&C is where Latter Day Saints get their fixation on the Celestial Kingdom as the ultimate end to Christ offering us this loving relationship in the first place.

So it's Jesus and Joseph Smith who are at fault for your cringing.

Relationships are rewarding, period. There is no way around this principle of "gaining" from interacting with others, because if you love someone you will always gain something. It's the law of the harvest; sewing and reaping. Even between people. Asking mormons to split Exaltation and their love for Christ into a dichotomy is like telling them to choose between cereal and milk.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Obolus

[Traveler]

When I was investigating the Church, there was one missionary I did not like very much because I thought him haughty and arrogant. During one of our discussions, I asked him why he chose to do good. His answer was so that he might gain exaltation, which was the answer I expected from him. I then told him to ask me the same question, which he did, and to which I answered, "Because I love Jesus." This made him very angry with me and he let me have it with both barrels. My problem is that I still cringe when I hear Latter Day Saints talk about trying to gain exaltation. In my mind, it seems to be for selfish reasons that some LDS members follow the commandments rather than doing so because of their love for Christ. What am I getting wrong here?

Sincerely,

Ron

To be honest - I think you both have missed the point, although I believe you are closer than the missionary. Jesus said, “In as much as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren you have done it unto me”.

Our goodness and devotion to Jesus does not matter so much to him. He asks us to devote ourselves and love him for our benefit. But the truth is that as we devote ourselves to him we become more like him and the true benefit is in others we encounter along the way to our salvation. So it is that we seek salvation so that others may benefit and be glorified – from our forgiveness of them, our love for them and our sacrifices for them; especially because they do not deserve it. This is the secret of the peace that Christ gives – that as he lived and died for us – we live and die for others.

The Traveler

[ronism99403]

We're dealing with a king and his kingdom. Paul says that we are "joint heirs with Christ", meaning that we will share his inheritance. Christ is the same guy who used the parable of the talents to explain his rationale in dealing out stewardship and reward. The revelations Joseph Smith received concerning the breakdown of the Kingdom of God in Section 76 of the D&C is where Latter Day Saints get their fixation on the Celestial Kingdom as the ultimate end to Christ offering us this loving relationship in the first place.

So it's Jesus and Joseph Smith who are at fault for your cringing.

Relationships are rewarding, period. There is no way around this principle of "gaining" from interacting with others, because if you love someone you will always gain something. It's the law of the harvest; sewing and reaping. Even between people. Asking mormons to split Exaltation and their love for Christ into a dichotomy is like telling them to choose between cereal and milk.

Good answer. As an investigator, the LDS emphasis on exaltation seemed to me,at first, to be different than Jesus' statement that the last shall be first. The missionary's example (his demeanor, the dismissive way he dealt with my questions and concerns) didn't help my misconception much. The answer I gave him to my posed question caught him by surprise because, for him, it was an afterthought, or so it seemed. He angrily claimed afterward that I was basically an anti-Mormon--even though my questions and concerns were brought up only because I truly wanted to know what Mormons believed--and yes, I was testing the spirit behind his faith. I wanted to know if altruism was the foundation for Mormon behavior rather than a desperate grabbing for an exalted state (the desire to rule, that is). After our encounter, I told him to leave my home. He called back later to apologize to me as I, in return, did so to him. But the longer I knew him, the more obvious it was that he could not receive correction from others regarding the things he said and believed. He believed he was much smarter than his companions. His first companion, however, was his opposite in every way, (very Christlike) and that, in part, was why I chose to be baptized.

Since my baptism, I met many members who exemplified Jesus' statement that the last shall be first, and I saw, first hand, that many lived lives of service and love to others, apparently understanding that exaltation comes from giving, serving and loving others as Christ had and does. But, I wonder, doesn't the focus on being worthy enough to attain the Highest kingdom breed, in many, a sense of self-righteousness rather than the humility that would come from acknowledging that apart from Christ we can do nothing? That is where my answer comes in. I love Christ for making it possible for me to do good and for me to become good. So if I'm ever exalted, it would all be because of Him. And with that knowledge my paramount reason for doing good would be because I love Christ.

Am I too far out in left field on this one?

Edited June 17, 2010 by ronism99403

[ronism99403]

Perhaps, I'm the one being self-righteous here.

[Obolus]

But the longer I knew him, the more obvious it was that he could not receive correction from others regarding the things he said and believed. He believed he was much smarter than his companions.

Huh. Sounds like about a few guys I knew when I served.

But, I wonder, doesn't the focus on being worthy enough to attain the Highest kingdom breed, in many, a sense of self-righteousness rather than the humility that would come from acknowledging that apart from Christ we can do nothing?

I think it breeds such possibilities in all who are taught the doctrine. Especially when paired with the Smith's contiguous claim that ours is the only true and living church upon the earth. The ego/Natural Man is omnipresent amongst the range of continuously developing/faltering testimonies, and such doctrine is superficially self-inflating. But Traveler's post above answers the point:

This is the secret of the peace that Christ gives – that as he lived and died for us – we live and die for others.

It is impossible to follow Christ's lead without stepping into his shoes. All sheep are made into shepherds. Likewise, it is impossible to serve others without serving him. He is essentially saying that each human being is a direct conduit to the Godhead. So when you do unto others, you literally do it unto the Lord. Hence, for a testimony to progress, it is impossible to simply bask in the light of revelation. One must act. And to act correctly, one must learn to be humble.

I love Christ for making it possible for me to do good and for me to become good. So if I'm ever exalted, it would all be because of Him. And with that knowledge my paramount reason for doing good would be because I love Christ.

Am I too far out in left field on this one?

No. You're in right field. But the types of doctrines we're talking about are closer to the infield, meaning that they are necessarily more complex and more dangerous.

If the body is a temple... and Christ said it is... then all action is temple work. And if we're talking about temples, then we're talking about covenants. And covenants mean ordinances, and ordinances mean authority. Therein lies the danger of Joseph Smith and his doctrine.

[Hemidakota]

When I was investigating the Church, there was one missionary I did not like very much because I thought him haughty and arrogant. During one of our discussions, I asked him why he chose to do good. His answer was so that he might gain exaltation, which was the answer I expected from him. I then told him to ask me the same question, which he did, and to which I answered, "Because I love Jesus." This made him very angry with me and he let me have it with both barrels. My problem is that I still cringe when I hear Latter Day Saints talk about trying to gain exaltation. In my mind, it seems to be for selfish reasons that some LDS members follow the commandments rather than doing so because of their love for Christ. What am I getting wrong here?

Sincerely,

Ron

Good morning Ron...

Ron, we do it for Christ and not for ourselves. Using my own life as an example, I am only here to build and serve in the kingdom for Christ and bring glory to Him, that He may bring glory to the FATHER (GOD). We simply serve Him and no other. Now, if I serve Him, I serve His servants, the brethren. It is my goal and desire for my life, being centered on the Savior, to be with Him into the externalities. It is my only desire to serve my Master forever and to glory Him. In our home, we used the same motto that was stated by the Prophet Joshua;

“Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Josh. 24:14–15.

It is Christ whom we truly love and serve.

Ron, in order to be with our beloved Savior in the eternities, we need to rise to a level of glory by utilizing various ordinance of the Gospel provided by Savior, we can be exaltated in order to be with Him. The emphasis is not for our own exaltation but our desire to be with the Savior.

The missionary may have offended you by his action but what is your spiritual desire, to please the Lord? I truly believe it is. Ron, spiritual maturity may vary among members in the church, even on this forum that I have seen since my inception in 2008. But our cause is to show our love to others, even those who despise us and would seek to honor themselves and not the Savior. Ron, surely it pleases the Lord when we, His brothers and sisters, reach out to one another, to give help along the way, and to bring another closer to the Master (Jesus Christ). The Savior taught,

“[When] ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me” (Matt. 25:40). He wants us to “mourn with those that mourn[,] … comfort those that stand in need of comfort” (Mosiah 18:9), and “by love serve one another” (Gal. 5:13).

Even in the arrogance of a few members, we still remain focus on the gospel path and the brethren (Prophet, the Apostles, Seventies). Again, our mortal and spiritual goal, regardless others actions or mincing of words, to center our life on the Savior that we serve Him forever. Even through trials of fires by others, we walk the narrow path the Lord has given us.

Let me end now with beautiful scribed words that was put to music by Susan Evans McCloud:

Savior, may I learn to love thee,

Walk the path that thou hast shown,

Pause to help and lift another,

Finding strength beyond my own. …

I would be my brother’s keeper;

I would learn the healer’s art.

To the wounded and the weary

I would show a gentle heart. …

Savior, may I love my brother

As I know thou lovest me,

Find in thee my strength, my beacon,

For thy servant I would be.

(“Lord, I Would Follow Thee,” Hymns, no. 220)

[ronism99403]

If the body is a temple... and Christ said it is... then all action is temple work. And if we're talking about temples, then we're talking about covenants. And covenants mean ordinances, and ordinances mean authority. Therein lies the danger of Joseph Smith and his doctrine.

Thank you Obulus for your fine answer to my query. Your posts have been challenging and thought-provoking. I liked Travelers answer as well--succinct and true, as I see it. Thank you Hemidakota for your encouraging post. It feels like I'm investigating all over again, but this time I get to ask the questions I was too afraid to ask before, and to say what I really think on some issues. I look forward to more of these exchanges.

[Hemidakota]

Ron, even us members who been around awhile, still investigate many aspect of the church.

[NeuroTypical]

I think it has a lot to do with motivations. Obedience is good, but why we do it really determines what it means. Looking at a motivation spectrum

MOTIVATIONS:

Fear

Reward

Duty

Love

I don't see this nearly as intuitively as Onhech.

People take duties upon themselves, for reasons good or bad. Sometimes for selfish reasons. I have duties at work, so I can make money. There's nothing inherent to Duty that places it higher than reward on any scale I can think of.

Love is an emotion, and emotions are tricksy and sometimes false. Sometimes relevant, sometimes irrelevant. Love is not a constant, whereas duty is. There's nothing to basic fallable error-prone emotional love that places it higher than anything else. Jails are full of bad guys with mommies who love them and would gladly do anything, legal or illegal, to get their poor helpless babies away from the bad jail people. Divorced people occasionally have bitter lists of the dumb things they chose to do for love.

I don't see anything wrong in working for one's own 'enlightened self-interest' (that's the term a professor at BYU assigned it). If God wants what is best for me, why am I supposed to suddenly feel guilty for wanting what's best for me?

If we do perfectly love, we will obey all the commandments!

I strongly reject that statement. We're fallible, agenda-driven, blinder-wearing, error-prone humans. There's nothing about strong emotion that makes us perfect. This sort of nonsense is what drives people away from the church when they take a look at the distance between themselves and perfection. The attraction of the gospel, is that through the atonement of Christ, ALL mankind may be saved. Even us sinners just doing the best we can and repenting when we fall short, which we all will, no matter how much we love Christ. Even people with addictions and bad character traits and permanent wounds.

All that said, that missionary was a jerk, and his reaction was not helpful, destructive, and innapropriate. But there's nothing wrong with shooting for exhaltation because exhaltation rocks. Or in other words, why put up with so much being last if you're not that hot on being first?

LM

Edited June 17, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[ronism99403]

"Love is an emotion, and emotions are tricksy and sometimes false. Sometimes relevant, sometimes irrelevant. Love is not a constant, whereas duty is. There's nothing to basic fallable error-prone emotional love that places it higher than anything else. Jails are full of bad guys with mommies who love them and would gladly do anything, legal or illegal, to get their poor helpless babies away from the bad jail people. Divorced people occasionally have bitter lists of the dumb things they chose to do for love." Loud Mouth_Mormon.

The love I'm talking about is not emotion. Let's call it Charity (1 Cor 13) or altruism, or "doing it unto the least of these, my brethren." If love is not that important, then the Apostle Paul was wrong in saying of faith, hope, and love, that the first two would pass away, but love would remain.

"If we do perfectly love, we will obey all the commandments!"

I strongly accept this statement as true. What are we striving for, if not to learn to love perfectly? What did the Apostle Paul mean when he wrote "Perfect love casts out all fear?" And why write it if he didn't expect us to pursue the goal of loving perfectly?

Finally, if I tithe only because I want to receive the blessings that come from tithing (in faith, mind you), then my tithe is only a clanging symbol. If I serve only to gain exaltation, then my service is dross.

Edited June 17, 2010 by ronism99403

[pam]

To me exaltation and love for Christ go hand in hand. If I want to live with Him again, I must do good to reach exaltation.