The LDS Industry

[Obolus]

I know that everyone needs to make money and we all rely on our talents and abilities to feed our families. BUT, I HATE the idea of people using our faith and out seeking after good things as an easy way to profit.

The "good things" have to come from someone. I think many of us run into this issue when buying books; is it written by one of the Lord's anointed, or is it a product of the world? The truth is that both groups must subsist by making a profit. "Print or perish", as the saying goes.

The LDS Industry, as you call it, provides a wide range of media. Some of it qualifies as "worthwhile" and some it doesn't, but the range of needs within our culture is wide as well. While you and I may be sickened by a film made by the Liken company, for instance, there may be a dozen others who can't get enough of that stuff and who extract great spiritual resonance from watching those films.

It is a matter of compassion to allow people to utilize the tools they see as fit for use until they are ready to move on to different ones on their own. Even if we think these tools are lame. Are there those who take advantage of this market for gain? Of course, and they would be fools not to. One man's squandering is a miracle to another, and not everyone has a subsidized retirement plan or a 401K. Yes, we could allow Mattel and Hasbro to control the action figure marketplace, and the result would be that those kids' consciousness would be tied to those mythologies instead of one more closely related to our culture. These markets are valid and valuable to more than just the artists producing them.

To me, every artist that is able to survive (or thrive) on their craft is one more individual removed from all the major industries in which they would otherwise be miserable. I'm a writer and a musician, but until one of my projects becomes a viable product I'm obligated to make my living as a servant to the business model and profits of someone else. But just like the manufacturer, the administrator and the entrepreneur, I am at some point obligated to make an accounting of my talents to the Lord.

As for the FP or the Q12 writing books, it is either billed as scripture or it isn't. They're allowed to fulfill both roles. When they write scripture, it is identified as such and added to the Standard Works. When they write their opinions on doctrine/ordinance/life and publish them, the books are either worth the money or they aren't. It depends on the individual.

The mere fact that we have a market wherein to negotiate and argue about such widely distributed texts as Mormon Doctrine, A Marvelous Work & a Wonder, Signs Symbols and Sacraments, or Jesus the Christ is a tremendous blessing that few generations before ours have ever enjoyed. The world went centuries without apostles, so even when one like McConkie is making public apologies in press conferences about erroneous doctrines I'm still glad that he was there to make a human mistake in the first place.

[ehkape]

wingnut and jd,

I don't want to argue with you on this topic that really isn't a big deal to me.

I was just trying to say that there ARE books we are encouraged to buy. You could call them basic necessaties or whatever, I don't care.

regards

ehkape

[john doe]

But you WERE making a big deal out of it. We were pointing out that your 'big deal' isn't really as big a deal as you were making it out to be. I imagine that your real stumbling blocks to the gospel go much deeper than the costs of buying a few books.

[bl8tant]

DeseretBook.com - Search for 'preach my gospel' I believe its 9 USD on Deseret Book

Deseret Book has Preach My Gospel for $9. The Church distribution center has it for $6.

If you look around a bit, you'll see that Deseret sells many of the same things that the official Church sales outlet sells: scriptures, pictures, and so on. The difference: Deseret marks it up 15% or more. You're paying for their advertising, their retail stores, and so on. That's what makes them a business. If you don't like it, you certainly don't have to shop there, as virtually everything they sell (from the Book of Mormon up to Tom Clancy and Harry Potter books) is available elsewhere for less money.

[beefche]

I must be misunderstanding this thread. Are LDS members really accusing the leaders of the church, including those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators, of priestcraft as condemned in the Book of Mormon? Really? And because they have to pay for scriptures, laundry of temple clothing, books written by prophets, etc?

Either the church is true as organized or it isn't. Either the PROPHETS OF GOD are honest and have integrity or not. Either we sustain them or not.

To accuse them of priestcraft is murmuring against the Lord's chosen and anointed and is not sustaining them.

[justaname]

I must be misunderstanding this thread. Are LDS members really accusing the leaders of the church, including those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators, of priestcraft as condemned in the Book of Mormon? Really? And because they have to pay for scriptures, laundry of temple clothing, books written by prophets, etc?

Either the church is true as organized or it isn't. Either the PROPHETS OF GOD are honest and have integrity or not. Either we sustain them or not.

To accuse them of priestcraft is murmuring against the Lord's chosen and anointed and is not sustaining them.

Oh please. Please tell me you arent taking this discussion this far! Really?? No one here is talking about priestcraft or murmuring. If a question is asked about the Lords annointed, are we immediately to be labeled as murmurers? Good heavens. Yes, you are misunderstanding the thread.

[justaname]

justaname,

Guess I'll have to ask again. How much do the prophets rake in and what do they do with the dough?

Ive noticed you are a rather blunt individual. No worries, I am too. You obviously know I dont know the answer to that question. I never suggested I do know. I dont think you know either.

[gabelpa]

I think Beefche has this thread licked.

[rameumptom]

I think there is a big difference between members walking into a Deseret Book to buy a book that someone wrote, versus the minister who makes his big money from the tithes of the people.

I've seen the same issue on my mission. My companion and I were asked by several pastors in the neighborhood if we would talk with one certain minister who was enriching himself on the backs of his flock. He owned several businesses, each paid for by the tithes of his people. He lived in a very nice home - paid for by tithes. We did talk to the man, and explained to him that the role of any pastor was to serve, not to enrich himself. We told him that Christ expected to give our wealth to the poor, not spend it on ourselves. He didn't like the discussion, btw.

I know of several GAs who have given all the proceeds from their books to charity. Other GAs who are not that wealthy have used the proceeds for personal living. They didn't ask to be a General Authority, it was thrust upon them. Many of them could have done very well in the private sector, but were asked to serve. In writing books, they help earn their own way. They aren't asking for charity. They aren't asking people to donate to them, so they can be rich. They work, and possibly people will buy their product.

Other members understand there is a market for things. Members want to beautify their homes with sculptures, paintings, etc. Others wish to enrich their minds with the understanding and learning of others. Why are these bad things? I just do not understand the problem.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I've spoken to a number of people over the years and I think you have to recognize that there are many members who find matters of money to be sensitive to them in the Church. To some, it's a real sacrifice to pay tithing, and some people have a really hard time doing it willingly, even though they may have a real desire to try to make the necessary material sacrifices to live the gospel fully.

To these people, issues of money can be very sensitive in the Church, and taken with some of the scandals over religious leaders their use of money in the past (like Jimmy Bakker, etcetera) they have a watchful eye for such things as merchandising gospel materials.

I can see their perspective -- a Church-owned coroporation marking up its own materials and selling them as part of a for-profit enterprise might raise some people's eyebrows if they find matters of money sensitive to them.

So, I think one needs to try to address the concern, rather than dismissing it outright.

On the other hand, I think the reasons many have given here are outstanding -- that Deseret Book provides an alternative to Christian Book stores that have nothing LDS to enrich the home. Or that the Church doesn't force us, or even encourage us to buy things from Deseret. I think the distribution center makes basic, gospel-oriented materials available at a reasonable price -- so it's not like we're mandated to buy from Deseret at top retail prices to line the pockets of the Church.

At the same time, those of you who said you don't see what the concern is perhaps need to try to see the Church-money duet from the perspective of someone who is struggling with the precedents set in so many other aspects of life, where people act out of self-interest, and make money their object. While I'm not saying this is the Church's orientation, it's one that the Church and members need to be sensitive to in others who have concerns in this regard.

[spamlds]

As an author of several LDS books, I can testify from experience that the market is indeed small. Hardly anyone makes a living from writing LDS books. Almost all LDS authors have some other line of work, like the professors of ancient scripture at BYU, medical doctors, businessmen, etc.

There is a need for LDS entertainment, literature, music, art, etc. That doesn't just mean the fine arts. Popular music, comedy, romance novels, fantasy and adventure, movies, videos need to be created as an alternative to their worldly counterparts. The challenge is for artists, writers, musicians, filmmakers, and others to produce quality products for such a small market.

If you ever want to see a blatant, shameless exploitation of a religious market, just go to any large Catholic shrine like Lourdes. The entire mile-long road leading into that site is lined with souvenir shops selling plastic Mary-shaped bottles to put holy water in from the spring. They even sold postcards of the dead Saint Bernadette in her glass casket! Deseret Book doesn't even come close to anything like that display of crass commercialism.

Regarding General Authorities and their books, these men do not receive a salary for preaching the gospel. They don't take a vow of poverty, however. Most of them were very successful businessmen in their fields. Many of them were leaders in their businesses, government, or in the military. Some of them owned extremely profitable businesses, were lawyers, professors, doctors, generals, etc. Many of them sacrificed significant opportunities to leave all and serve the kingdom. For example, N. Eldon Tanner was poised to become the Prime Minister of Canada. Others are merely retired executives, teachers, and businessmen who live off a pension or well-managed investments from their earlier years.

The world equates success with money and the attainment of social rank. Imagine what it takes for men of great stature in their industries to leave those opportunities behind and serve in an unpaid position for the rest of their lives?

Some of them receive renumeration from books they might write. This isn't the same as being a minister of the gospel for "filthy lucre." They're not selling "scripture." Perhaps it is the case that it is necessary for them to write and earn an honest royalty from a book so they might be able to continue their ministry. The New Testament tells us that Peter went fishing and that Paul worked making sails to pay his way that they might not be chargeable to any man.

The Lord opens up the way for them to continue to serve without getting a paycheck from the Church.

[Snow]

Ive noticed you are a rather blunt individual. No worries, I am too. You obviously know I dont know the answer to that question. I never suggested I do know. I dont think you know either.

No, that's right, you don't... which renders your entire point rather pointless.

If a prophet spent 600 hours writing a book that spiritually nourished the saints and taught important truths to them, which they thought enough of to spring for 25 bucks, and the writer's net take, after tithing was $1500 with which he took his wife to dinner and donated the balance to the Perpetual Education Fund, it would be quite a different scenario.

Your point, by contrast, pivots on the writer enriching themselves unjustly. Since you can no evidence your POV is even remotely true, you have no point. On the other hand, I am familiar with the LDS book market and know that most authors put way more effort into it, time and research and honest effort, than they get out of it. In short, it more like an act of charity and service than it is a paying gig.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Snow

[pam]

If a prophet spent 600 hours writing a book that spiritually nourished the saints and taught important truths to them, which they thought enough of to spring for 25 bucks, and the writer's net take, after tithing was $1500 with which he took his wife to dinner and donated the balance to the Perpetual Education Fund

To add to Snow' comment, can you imagine how long it would take to put that 600 hours of writing in? With the schedule that the Prophet keeps devoting almost every waking moment to serving the Church, I'm sure he doesn't have much time at the end of the day. Unlike other authors who devote full time to writing.

[beefche]

Oh please. Please tell me you arent taking this discussion this far! Really?? No one here is talking about priestcraft or murmuring. If a question is asked about the Lords annointed, are we immediately to be labeled as murmurers? Good heavens. Yes, you are misunderstanding the thread.

Nope, I'm not taking this discussion this far. I'm merely going by the posts in this thread including:

I suppose that was the first time it ever dawned on me that people get rich from religion. I have a real hard time with that concept. I used to think that stuff doesnt happen in our church, but little by little, Im recognizing the big money that is being made in our religion.

Each time I walk into a Seagull and Deseret Book, I feel a little bit bothered by how much money is being made by "selling the gospel".

am I the only one that feels strange about our leaders making a dollar on sales of their books? I know people that treat these books as "must haves" and buy them all. Yes, I believe in capitalism, but . . . it just doesnt sit right with me.

BUT, I HATE the idea of people using our faith and out seeking after good things as an easy way to profit.

Im also curious as to find out when our prophets started writing books for profit.

[beefche]

Just some other posts that I'm going by:

The Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't to be used for financial gain. While I don't see Church Leaders becoming wealthy from Deseret Book, there may be some who are making more than a nice living off of their art which is sold in the store.

At what point does an artist's talent become filthy lucre?

Why do I have to pay for the clothing when I go to the temple and don't bring my own stuff? And if I do, why are there different price ranges in pants, jackets, etc when the white clothing is supposed to symbolize that we are all equal? Just a thought that crossed my mind.

I'm sorry to say, but the first copies of the Book of Mormon were not handed out for free, but sold to the people. So it would have started right at the beginning of the restoration, I'd say.

ts not that people are not able to afford it (A full set would be around 7 EUR or 8.50 USD at the moment) It' s just the fact, that they charge the money. Why do you have to pay to be able to worship?

If a book is being authored by someone we sustain as a prophet, seer and revelator, I would like to see these books offered at a similar low dollar price. Its not the cost that bothers me. Its the concept of these individuals profiting from their positions.

[Wingnut]

Sounds pretty much like the definition of priestcraft to me. That exactly what the OP is accusing Church leaders of, and it's not "going too far" to point it out in those terms. Not at all. It's one thing to have concerns about huge profits being made off of art/literature by one in a leadership position. It's quite another to make accusations about the appropriateness of the activity and whether or not they are taking advantage of their positions.

[justaname]

This is interesting stuff. I never thought that asking questions would lead to accusations of declaring our leaders of having committed priestcraft. Nice stretch there Wing. I remember encouraging people to ask questions about the church, to research, study and pray about things. I never thought that there was such a thing as a question that was off limits or inappropriate. I still dont. Obviously some of you arent ok with raising a concern or asking a question.

In response to my questions and concerns, I got some great information from those of you who genuinely tried to answer it. From those posts, I actually feel my concern was resolved. So thank you! From others, I got comments that were offensive and belittled the question. What is interesting is the fact that those comments that were actually helpful came from members who have relatively few posts. Those that were argumentative, negative, and offensive seemed to come from the regulars here with thousands of posts. Interesting stuff.

[beefche]

Here's my observation, justaname (granted I'm a regular with thousands of posts and this will probably be viewed as negative, but such is life).

When someone asks why something is so, then that is questioning. When someone asks why something is so and then asks about the motives and questions the intent, it is accusation.

"Why do church leaders write books for profits?" vs. "Why do church leaders write books for profits...wouldn't this be filty lucre or aren't they using their position/the gospel to make money?"

Is that really that difficult to see the difference?

[Wingnut]

Here's my observation, justaname (granted I'm a regular with thousands of posts and this will probably be viewed as negative, but such is life).

You're also a moderator which probably makes you pushy and power-hungry.

[MarginOfError]

You're also a moderator which probably makes you pushy and power-hungry.

So why aren't I a moderator?

[Dravin]

So why aren't I a moderator?

See you've got your cause and effect backwards.

It's Moderator -> Pushy not Pushy -> Moderator.

That and you've yet to bribe those in charge of Mod selection with donuts.

[beefche]

So why aren't I a moderator?

We have a special place for you, MOE.

[Dravin]

We have a special place for you, MOE.

Future Moderator of the Advice Forum?

[justaname]

Here's my observation, justaname (granted I'm a regular with thousands of posts and this will probably be viewed as negative, but such is life).

When someone asks why something is so, then that is questioning. When someone asks why something is so and then asks about the motives and questions the intent, it is accusation.

"Why do church leaders write books for profits?" vs. "Why do church leaders write books for profits...wouldn't this be filty lucre or aren't they using their position/the gospel to make money?"

Is that really that difficult to see the difference?

This is great stuff man. Let me help you out a little bit. You could have helped yourself by actually reading the OP, but its apparent you didnt. Here are my questions:

What are the motives behind writing these books? Are they attempting to make a dollar, supplement the scriptures, or are (they) so pure that they are simply trying to make the world a better place?

Im also curious as to find out when our prophets started writing books for profit. Or do they?

Is it really that difficult to see that my questions are in no way related to making an accusation? Is it really that difficult to understand that many of the responses to these questions have not been helpful but give the impression that its not ok to ask questions? This was definitely not the type of response I expected.

I have to wonder if you guys are like this in real life.

"Let me provide another example of disconnecting gradually and physically from things as they really are. Today a person can enter into a virtual world, such as Second Life, and assume a new identity. An individual can create an avatar, or a cyberspace persona, that conforms to his or her own appearance and behavior. Or a person can concoct a counterfeit identity that does not correlate in any way to things as they really are. However closely the assumed new identity approximates the individual, such behavior is the essence of things as they really are not."

I hope not.

[beefche]

Yeah, I'm a poster with thousands of posts who is negative and argumentative. I should pay more attention to what Elder Bednar writes in the Ensign to see if it applies to me....

And nope, didn't read any posts whatsoever in this thread. That's why I took the time to go through and quote them when responding. Why should I read them? That's just a waste of time....I can get negative without them.

In case you were wondering, this post is provided to you from the Sarcastic Society of which I'm the negative, argumentative member.

edit: Since you claim I am not reading your posts and you aren't reading mine, I'll bow out of this "discussion." I have other threads to supply the negative, argumentative thoughts to.