How rare is man?


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One of the interesting things to me about science is that outside of this earth there has never been any direct indication of life. Never-the-less it does seem reasonable to believe that there is indeed life somewhere else in this universe. But I am wondering about what others may believe about our universe and life. I have been meditating on this for some time. Is this earth the only place where man created in the image of G-d lives out a mortal existence?

I know there are other worlds with life and this earth seems to have had life for billions of years but only in the last about 6,000 years has man created in the image of G-d been present on this earth. I guess I am wondering – how unique are we? Are we the highest mortal life form in the entire universe? Is man really the best of G-d's creations?

The Traveler

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Personally, I think life is plentiful. One possible reason why we haven't detected life elsewhere is simply because the universe is so large, and the speed of light is comparatively slow. Life could be shouting directly at us, but if they're 100M light-years away, it's going to be a long time before we receive the memo.

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I am not talking about life or just life - I am asking about other human life that are the spirit children of our Father in Heaven that are in the Image and Likeness of G-d - not almost, not close, but actual individuals undergoing a mortal experience to become G-d.

I know there are worlds without end. I understand the infinite vastness of the universe. But I am asking for any indication, scientific or religious that indicates there is people; (spirit sons and daughters of the Father) undergoing mortal probation somewhere other than this earth (not including the City of Enoch and such things). Is it possible mankind as we understand man and the plan of salvation - Is it possible that this earth is it - the only possible place for the spirit sons and daughters of the Father to fulfill their probation? I am beginning to believe it is possible. I am thinking if there are other places the inhabitants are descendent of Adam and Eve.

The Traveler

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Science will never provide the answer to a religious question. We're also taught that we're given the information we need for our own salvation, so I doubt the details of other worlds meet that requirement. We're all given the ability to receive personal revelation though- have you prayed about it? What was the answer?

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I am not talking about life or just life - I am asking about other human life that are the spirit children of our Father in Heaven that are in the Image and Likeness of G-d - not almost, not close, but actual individuals undergoing a mortal experience to become G-d.

I know there are worlds without end. I understand the infinite vastness of the universe. But I am asking for any indication, scientific or religious that indicates there is people; (spirit sons and daughters of the Father) undergoing mortal probation somewhere other than this earth (not including the City of Enoch and such things). Is it possible mankind as we understand man and the plan of salvation - Is it possible that this earth is it - the only possible place for the spirit sons and daughters of the Father to fulfill their probation? I am beginning to believe it is possible. I am thinking if there are other places the inhabitants are descendent of Adam and Eve.

The Traveler

Moses 1:34 makes it sound like there are others, "And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many." (I guess you could argue that the Lord is saying that "Adam" signifies "many", but that's not a very popular reading). So how do we fit all these Adams in the Universe? We could say that God places these Adams veeeeeeerrrrrrrry far apart so they don't interfere with each other (or maybe they do, but we're the ones in the armpit of the Universe). Or we could say that it works on an Epoch model and each timeline only gets one Adam. Or we could go with a Sagan model and have only one Adam per Universe, and several Universes in a Cosmos.

As to evidences, SETI is 50 years old and only has a single WOW moment. And there's too many unknowns in the Drake equation for me to take it seriously.

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More questions: Why is Satan and all his host here on earth? Or are there other Satans with their host scattered all over the Universe. If so is this place really that important (just another place of endless many – Why then, did Jesus come here? I know the answer – that nowhere else would put him to death. This seem to be missing the point – why is all the action here? Or is it?

The Traveler

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One very interesting thing to me is that the very definition of life as we know it here on earth is a war for survival. Every species that survives is at war just to eat and provide another generation. There is no evidence that this war of survival just started 6,000 years ago with the fall of Adam. Pre-history indicates that most species that once lived are now gone, in other words extinct. The grand majority of species did not survive.

Religious theology indicates that mortality is but a small fraction (infinitesimally small) of existence. Yet there is no indication at all of any species capable of existing in paradise.

Most of what we understand is because of what we experience. Eating is such and essential part of our existence but eating alone is the major single contributor to competition and war between species; including the competition between plants and animals.

In another thread there is discussion concerning obesity and the word of wisdom. But then how can someone that consistently demands more than they need ever find place in a paradise society?

But here is the point I keep making over and over – how can it be that the rest of our universe be anything like what we experience here on earth? Are there really unnumbered worlds like this – only not quite as “wicked”? What does that mean? Is mortality and the war for survival unique to earth or is the earth and life here basically the same for all life throughout the universe? How rare is this experience.

Again I am beginning to wonder and ponder – mortality on earth is indeed a rare and unique opportunity, both in time and space.

The Traveler

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Why then, did Jesus come here? I know the answer – that nowhere else would put him to death.

I've always been taught that Earth is the wicked of all the worlds created and that's why Christ came here.

Jesus was not just the redeemer for our world, he was the redeemer of many worlds. Our world was the only one cruel enough to kill him. Jesus redeems people, so other worlds must have people. Ours is a cruel world, others must avoid us.

I've heard this before, and it seems to be a very popular idea. Does anyone know where it came from? I've seen 2 Nephi 10:3, but that only applies to the wickedest portion of this world.

Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should bcome among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

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More questions: Why is Satan and all his host here on earth? Or are there other Satans with their host scattered all over the Universe.

Maybe I understand "one eternal round" in the wrong way, but I imagine that when one "generation" is done, then you start on the next (just like singing Row, Row, Row Your Boat). I haven't been so bold as to settle whether the "generation" should be associated with Christ or Adam. If we associate the Grand Council with the generation of Christ, then Satan does indeed go around and torment other earths. If, on the other hand, we associate the Council with Adam and his posterity, then Satan is probably only on this earth.

The question of a Satan on other earths gets a bit more fuzzy since we need to account for his myriad roles. Let's start with daily temptations. That one is simple in my mind because I can find plenty in life to tempt me without an imp or dark prince coercing me. I'll sum it up by saying we don't just have heavenly and hellish beings enticing us, but our own minds as well (should probably be a different thread if we want to go there).

When Satan acts as the accuser (think Job), that role may be filled by other children of Adam (of that other hypothetical earth). The one that I don't have a simple answer for is when he gives the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve. If no one rebelled in the Council, then who takes this fallen role? Maybe it's not even needed. Although innocent, perhaps the primordial parents can choose mortality without a tempter (we made a similar decision to leave Father's presence and enter mortality - I don't think we necessarily needed a tempter). Or perhaps a clever God has a backup plan for a Satan-less Fall.

If so is this place really that important (just another place of endless many) – Why then, did Jesus come here? I know the answer – that nowhere else would put him to death. This seem to be missing the point – why is all the action here? Or is it?

I like to think sometimes that Area 51 is a tourist stop for the aliens before shuttling to Jerusalem :D.

Your line of thinking reminds me of the anthrocentric notions of the Universe. Because we are here, we wonder if they are out there. But if the sludge didn't align right, there wouldn't be a mind in the whole Universe to entertain such ridiculous thoughts.

So the action is here because we are here. Let's suppose that after the Ascension, Christ took up residence on Earth[Awesome]. In fact, he's been living there the whole time with all the descendants of Adam[Awesome]. Let's even crank it up a notch and say that anytime a prophet from this earth was taken up to an unknown mountain, that mountain was on Earth[Awesome]. Then while you are sitting at your computer wondering why all the action of the life and crucifixion of the Son of God happens here, some dude[Awesome] is wondering why he gets the privilege of living in the neighborhood of Christ - which is so popular that alien prophets come to visit. On a Universal scale, where is the action really happening?

I hope I got my points across English is my second language - I started with baby talk, and now can't even remember that anymore.

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I have really enjoyed the input and thoughts. When I am talking about action – I am talking about mortal action. There may be many worlds with people created in the image of G-d but how many are having a mortal experience? When we consider the life span of a mortal compared to the eons of years immortal live – there would have to be many places for immortals but not so many for mortals.

If we just look at numbers there would of necessity need to be many worlds for all the immortal souls – else thing would get very crowded. Also the L-rd told Abraham that only life that he will make know to us are the mortals that live here, lived here or will live here – no other life will be made known. Well that is interesting and leaves a lot to be pondered.

Science tracks all knowledge that is possible for us to observe. In theology we only track that knowledge that G-d lets us know about. It is interesting to me that we can observe many things other than what G-d lets us know. In science anyone looking can find the latest and greatest information – in theology only that which relates to our stewardship is made known by G-d according to covenant. There does not appear to be a one to one mapping of science to theology. In fact, I am still trying to figure out which is the greater volume of stuff.

The Traveler

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I've heard this before, and it seems to be a very popular idea. Does anyone know where it came from? I've seen 2 Nephi 10:3, but that only applies to the wickedest portion of this world.

I read something just recently on this while working on a project for TheMoreGoodFoundation. Let me see if I can find it again.

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Okay this is one man's perspective but he pretty much lays out what I have always been taught. This is from a question and answer forum so I will just quote all of it.

Gramps,

What is meant by the earth being the Lord’s footstool?

Rachel & Grant, from Stansbury Park, Utah

Dear Rachel. & Grant,

Think of it!! Of all the infinite number of worlds in the universe, the Savior chose this world, our earth, in which to take upon himself a mortal stature and work out the great atoning sacrifice, by which he suffered fully for all the sins of all mortal humanity that have ever lived or will ever live on all of those infinite worlds! The great infinity of that number was expressed by Enoch, who said—

And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there (Moses 7:30).

And the Savior declared that of all those infinite worlds, this earth is the most wicked of them all—

Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren (Moses 7:36).

As a matter of fact, He came to this earth to work out the great atonement because it was the most wicked of all the worlds.

He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth (D&C 88:6)

When the earth is purified it will become a fit celestial abode for the Savior himself to dwell upon—

“It assures me that God lives; and if I am faithful, I shall obtain the blessings of the celestial kingdom. The earth will become purified and made a fit abode for heavenly beings and for the Lord our God to come and dwell upon, which he will do during the millennium” (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, October 1968, p.125).

I imagine that after the millennium when the earth will have attained its celestial glory that it may even be the residence of the Savior. Since the earth was the most wicked of all creations, I would imagine that it will become the most righteous of all creations–among the brightest stars of the universe. This thought is consistent with the proliferation of opposites in the Lord’s doings. (We see that in the great density of chiastic [opposite] arrangements in the scriptures).

So the earth being the Lord’s footstool is a euphemism for the fact that the Lord will plant his feet upon the earth, i.e., He will dwell here.

Gramps

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Okay this is one man's perspective but he pretty much lays out what I have always been taught. This is from a question and answer forum so I will just quote all of it.

Gramps,

What is meant by the earth being the Lord’s footstool?

Rachel & Grant, from Stansbury Park, Utah

Dear Rachel. & Grant,

Think of it!! Of all the infinite number of worlds in the universe, the Savior chose this world, our earth, in which to take upon himself a mortal stature and work out the great atoning sacrifice, by which he suffered fully for all the sins of all mortal humanity that have ever lived or will ever live on all of those infinite worlds! The great infinity of that number was expressed by Enoch, who said—

And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there (Moses 7:30).

And the Savior declared that of all those infinite worlds, this earth is the most wicked of them all—

Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren (Moses 7:36).

As a matter of fact, He came to this earth to work out the great atonement because it was the most wicked of all the worlds.

He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth (D&C 88:6)

When the earth is purified it will become a fit celestial abode for the Savior himself to dwell upon—

“It assures me that God lives; and if I am faithful, I shall obtain the blessings of the celestial kingdom. The earth will become purified and made a fit abode for heavenly beings and for the Lord our God to come and dwell upon, which he will do during the millennium” (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, October 1968, p.125).

I imagine that after the millennium when the earth will have attained its celestial glory that it may even be the residence of the Savior. Since the earth was the most wicked of all creations, I would imagine that it will become the most righteous of all creations–among the brightest stars of the universe. This thought is consistent with the proliferation of opposites in the Lord’s doings. (We see that in the great density of chiastic [opposite] arrangements in the scriptures).

So the earth being the Lord’s footstool is a euphemism for the fact that the Lord will plant his feet upon the earth, i.e., He will dwell here.

Gramps

ok so why are we the lucky ones to have to deal with Satan?

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One of the interesting things to me about science is that outside of this earth there has never been any direct indication of life. Never-the-less it does seem reasonable to believe that there is indeed life somewhere else in this universe. But I am wondering about what others may believe about our universe and life. I have been meditating on this for some time. Is this earth the only place where man created in the image of G-d lives out a mortal existence?

I know there are other worlds with life and this earth seems to have had life for billions of years but only in the last about 6,000 years has man created in the image of G-d been present on this earth. I guess I am wondering – how unique are we? Are we the highest mortal life form in the entire universe? Is man really the best of G-d's creations?

The Traveler

If only we could look across to the either our own galaxy trailing arm, we can find life forms of equal dimension.

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If only we could look across to the either our own galaxy trailing arm, we can find life forms of equal dimension.

We are near the outer rim of our own galaxy. Generally it is believed that the inner part of our galaxy is more "mature". At least we know the stars are older and more mature. It should be that "intelligent" life is more likely to have been developed in the inner part of our galaxy. But there are no intelligent radio transmissions coming from the inner parts of our galaxy. And yes - if intelligent human like life developed at the same rate as on earth - we should be receiving these signals by now. With the assumption that other worlds are more enlightened (less apt to crucify their G-d) then they should develop even sooner?

At least in our galaxy it would appear that intelligent man is quite unique and very much out of the ordinary.

The Traveler

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I think both. I don't think you can have one without the other. The one brings the need for the other. Without the first the second is not needed.

I think of them as being separate generations because D&C 76 tells us that "the inhabitants [of other worlds] are begotten sons and daughters of [Christ]." And I mentioned earlier that I tend to think that each of these earths have their own Adam. So I see multiple Adams for one Christ.

Edited by mordorbund
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Never-the-less it does seem reasonable to believe that there is indeed life somewhere else in this universe. But I am wondering about what others may believe about our universe and life. I have been meditating on this for some time. Is this earth the only place where man created in the image of G-d lives out a mortal existence?

Is man really the best of G-d's creations?

The Traveler

Someone else quoted this, but I will again:

" And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

Without number, i.e. an infinite number of worlds

And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

The first man on each of these worlds was is and will be called "Adam," and up till now there has been "many". For The Father to call something "many" it is more than you can comprehend.

But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.

You really don't need to know about them other than the fact that they exist because they aren't pertaining to your salvation.

For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

Self explanatory. Many have come to an end, and there are currently an innumerable amount of populated worlds that "now stand".

And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

...

And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

Just a recap on the vastness of our Fathers works and creations. Innumerable.

And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

When one ends another comes. He never stops creating.

"Is man really the best of G-d's creations?"

The only reason for the creation of the universe is for Man to have a home and a proving ground. He does everything for us.

Yes, man really is the best of His creations.

"The worth of a soul is great in the eyes of God."

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