Sign in to follow this  
Seminarysnoozer

Body without spirit

Recommended Posts

Is it possible to have a "live" body without a spirit? Such as what happens when someone is on life support and there is a general feeling that the person has already passed and so it is time to stop life support. Is it possible that there could be an alive body without the spirit present? Yes, we would call it "dead" in terms of the body without the spirit is dead. (James 2:26) But the tissue is alive, artificially alive just like there can exist faith (momentarily) without works. Or does it mean by definition that when the body is alive, even if it is in a very primitive way, such as heart rate, blood pressure and brain waves are present but no purposeful activity or interaction observed that the spirit has to be there?

This was of course apply to the other end of life which is if the zygote is alive, the spirit is there?

And also when God formed man before breathing in life, the body was "dead" or live tissue?

It could also apply to recent threads pertaining to the flood and what is deemed "dead." (i.e. - the spirits were taken from all those animals left on land during the flood and yet the body remains, ready for the next generation.)

Or, do we take that in a strict sense, with any hint of life there has to be a spirit present for that individual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to a urologist I go to Church with, yes. He deals with technically dead people on life support regularly as part of harvesting the organs for transplantation.

But he'll also be the first to tell you that his own personal opinion and observation is hardly binding on the matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And also when God formed man before breathing in life, the body was "dead" or live tissue?

I don't understand this quote. All men have been born. That Adam was created from the dust of the ground is true of all men who are born.

So...

I don't think we understand "birth" (from our perspective) as much as we think we do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand this quote. All men have been born. That Adam was created from the dust of the ground is true of all men who are born.

So...

I don't think we understand "birth" (from our perspective) as much as we think we do.

I know, this has been discussed in other threads, whether Adam was "born" or created ... that wasn't the focus of the question.

Even if you believe Adam was born like everyone else, fine, there is a point in which the zygote or the embryo becomes a separate entity. At that point, the cells are alive but is there an "intelligence" within that grouping of cells from the moment it is formed or later as is sometimes called the "quickening" or at birth? If one says it is later, then that suggests a believe that there can be a "body" without a spirit for a period of time. Unless, one believes the spirit is there from the moment a zygote is formed. That, along with the opposite side of life, the possibility of sustaining cells alive, a "body", after the spirit has already left as when the body is kept alive via life support (ventilator, cardiac pump etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, then you consider that the umbilical cord is unique to "birth."

I only mention it that way because once you understand they were born, and not made from a lump of clay, it changes everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, then you consider that the umbilical cord is unique to "birth."

I only mention it that way because once you understand they were born, and not made from a lump of clay, it changes everything.

That would be a great discussion, if you could tell me exactly what would change. What would be the difference between Adam and Eve's body being created by some manner from the elements of Earth versus them being born via the umbilical cord method?

In both cases, they could be spiritually born, so in both cases they are literal children of God. What difference does it matter where the body that is not part of their permanent, eternal existence come from?

We know "death" is used in various ways in the scriptures. The body without the spirit is death could simply mean that it is not eternal. That, in some way, implies that a body could exist without a spirit, just that it wouldn't expect to live long, just like a bag of red blood cells or a heart ready for transplant. Calling the body a formation from dust is more telling of its value than how it was made. It is something that can be discarded, that can be put down, that can be given. Why try to give the body some divine, eternal heritage when we are told it is dust? One of the main focus of our religion is to overcome this world. Why would I want to overcome something that is the seed of something or someone eternal? When I get my eternal body, then I will not want to give that up. But this dusty, corrupted temporary existence I easily give up in the example of Christ who gave everything. That, to me, is the value of knowing our body is dust and will turn to dust in order to later get the body that has the eternal heritage. I don't see the reason to press for an umbilical cord birth for Adam and Eve. Yes, tell me how that changes anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, then you consider that the umbilical cord is unique to "birth."

I only mention it that way because once you understand they were born, and not made from a lump of clay, it changes everything.

If you are trying to imply that "spirit" force is passed through an umbilical cord to give life, I don't think that is consistent with LDS beliefs. We believe that we existed as individual spirits before we receive a physical body. We have no knowledge of the spirit having to be injected into the body via an umbilical cord as if it was donated from the mother. ... just wanted to cover that possible interpretation of your statement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a highly speculative question and thus the answers will also be. Searching the scriptures for reliable answers, I came up with this on in Doctrine and Covenants Section 88. It discusses the "light of Christ."

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

Note that in verse 13, it says that the light of Christ gives life to all things. This light of Christ proceeds from the power of God and emanates in to space, touching all his creations. It is an influence of control or governance. It is not animate or alive--it is a property or attribute of the Living God.

Some people mistake this influence, which touches all of us, for God's presence itself, or the Holy Ghost. It is neither of those things. It is a medium by which God governs his creations and communicates his will to them. It also gives life, awareness, consciousness, understanding, order, etc.

Now, related to the topic at hand, can there be a body that is alive without a human spirit being present in it? I believe that it can be so. The light of Christ is capable of sustaining life independent of the presence of a human spirit.

Seeking another scriptural example, let's look at 3rd Nephi. The day before Jesus' birth, he spoke in a revelation to the prophet Nephi, telling him that his birth would take place the following day. Mary's child in her womb surely was alive, but apparently the Savior's spirit had not yet entered into it yet.

To me, that is one of the reasons why the Church has never said that a first trimester abortion is OK, but later one's aren't. The Church says that abortion, although it is a grievous sin, is not murder. It may be the case that the time that our spirits enter the mortal body varies. Perhaps some of us desire to begin our mortal existence in the womb from the moment of conception. Others may enter in somewhat later. There have been instances where "stillborn" children have come to life some 20 minutes after they entered this world. It may be our choice when we enter the mortal body. The body is alive all that time that it's in the womb, but there may be "nobody home." It gains its life force from the light of Christ.

I have not given much thought to how this applies to individuals at the end of life or in vegetative states. Like I said, this is highly speculative and I'm just trying to apply scriptures according to our best understanding.

D&C 88:15 tells us that the spirit and the body, joined together, form the "soul of man." A spirit and a body, inseparably joined in the resurrection can experience a "fullness of joy." (D&C 93:33-34)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are trying to imply that "spirit" force is passed through an umbilical cord to give life, I don't think that is consistent with LDS beliefs. We believe that we existed as individual spirits before we receive a physical body. We have no knowledge of the spirit having to be injected into the body via an umbilical cord as if it was donated from the mother. ... just wanted to cover that possible interpretation of your statement.

No, I'm referring to just the birth of Adam and Eve. I assume you already believe all other men and women were born, or not made from a lump of clay.

If Adam and Eve were born it shows the need for our bodies past this earth life. If God can just mold clay and breath on it to create bodies for His children, then there doesn't seem to be the need for a physical body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe even a better discussion is "what is spirit?"

Is spirit something that can't be seen, felt, or heard? Or, is it something tangible, that can be felt, seen, and heard?

Spirit is real. It is who we are. It's a body, though different from the physical body, but a real, tangible body all the same.

God is an actual Being; an actual Parent. He lives by law, like He commands us to do.

God *had to* send His Son to the earth to redeem man. He had no choice. He is a glorified, perfected, Man, who is doing all He can to save as many of HIs children as possible. But, in His effort, He is bound by law.

Other than the fact that He has all power over the physical world by speaking, He is not all that unlike us. Of course, He is immortal, glorified, and perfected, but is a Man with a wife and children, doing His all to provide for His children.

Adam is His son born with an immortal body. Adam chose to fall to bring about Father's plan of redemption.

This helps us see that God is a Real Person. He exists in space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to have a "live" body without a spirit? Such as what happens when someone is on life support and there is a general feeling that the person has already passed and so it is time to stop life support. Is it possible that there could be an alive body without the spirit present? Yes, we would call it "dead" in terms of the body without the spirit is dead. (James 2:26) But the tissue is alive, artificially alive just like there can exist faith (momentarily) without works. Or does it mean by definition that when the body is alive, even if it is in a very primitive way, such as heart rate, blood pressure and brain waves are present but no purposeful activity or interaction observed that the spirit has to be there?

This was of course apply to the other end of life which is if the zygote is alive, the spirit is there?

And also when God formed man before breathing in life, the body was "dead" or live tissue?

It could also apply to recent threads pertaining to the flood and what is deemed "dead." (i.e. - the spirits were taken from all those animals left on land during the flood and yet the body remains, ready for the next generation.)

Or, do we take that in a strict sense, with any hint of life there has to be a spirit present for that individual.

Consider it is a merely a shell that houses the spirit soul, my answer would be no. Even the simplest form of organic life, has intelligence. But, in defining what is life and what is an ego, even a dead person physical body can be on respirators. Is there true spirit intelligence within? Not from what I am defining what life is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe even a better discussion is "what is spirit?"

Is spirit something that can't be seen, felt, or heard? Or, is it something tangible, that can be felt, seen, and heard?

Spirit is real. It is who we are. It's a body, though different from the physical body, but a real, tangible body all the same.

God is an actual Being; an actual Parent. He lives by law, like He commands us to do.

God *had to* send His Son to the earth to redeem man. He had no choice. He is a glorified, perfected, Man, who is doing all He can to save as many of HIs children as possible. But, in His effort, He is bound by law.

Other than the fact that He has all power over the physical world by speaking, He is not all that unlike us. Of course, He is immortal, glorified, and perfected, but is a Man with a wife and children, doing His all to provide for His children.

Adam is His son born with an immortal body. Adam chose to fall to bring about Father's plan of redemption.

This helps us see that God is a Real Person. He exists in space.

Same what the Prophet spoke about in the funeral of King Follett;

The Immortal Intelligence

I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead—namely, the soul—the mind of man —the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don’t believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through; if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know that it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more. LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll take a stab:

Is it possible to have a "live" body without a spirit? Such as what happens when someone is on life support and there is a general feeling that the person has already passed and so it is time to stop life support. Is it possible that there could be an alive body without the spirit present?

Yes. Clinically dead, physical body alive. Possible and I am sure it occurs.

This was of course apply to the other end of life which is if the zygote is alive, the spirit is there?

I once heard that (speculative) we are given the choice to enter the physical body as soon as we wish once it is ready for our spirit to dwell therein. I would imagine that would be quick given how anxious we were to get a body. Immediately after fertilization? No, but soon thereafter.

And also when God formed man before breathing in life, the body was "dead" or live tissue?

Adam had a physical body. Initially it was an immortal body. The way appointed for the physical body of man to be created is through sex (with the exception of the resurrection because at that point it will be restored not physically created for the first time). Who the two parents were I do not know, but I guarantee Adam had a belly-button. Maybe "breathing life" into Adam was waking him out of a divinely induced coma...

It could also apply to recent threads pertaining to the flood and what is deemed "dead." (i.e. - the spirits were taken from all those animals left on land during the flood and yet the body remains, ready for the next generation.)

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Huh?

Or, do we take that in a strict sense, with any hint of life there has to be a spirit present for that individual.

No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[My opinion] There are two stories being presented in Genesis, one is ancient in nature, the other is reality, being metaphorically – as taught in the temple. Both are equaling as important as the other.

As to when the selective spirits enter into this world, it was determine by GOD. I am referring to those who stood with Abraham in that council (see Book of Abraham). GOD's premortal knowledge and foreordination of Jeremiah formed the basis of his selective role to act as God's spokesman:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee" (Jer. 1:5).

This is without question are for those were called in that council, each of them (male and female), were called forth at predetermined periods of the earth timeline, to come forth and fore filled their divine tasking.

Was Joseph Smith called to come forth in the last dispensation? Yes! “I believe”, he was called prior to the framing of this earth and the tasking was his, being the first among the seven (arch-angels) but last to holding the keys prior to the Lord’s return

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe even a better discussion is "what is spirit?"

Is spirit something that can't be seen, felt, or heard? Or, is it something tangible, that can be felt, seen, and heard?

Spirit is real. It is who we are. It's a body, though different from the physical body, but a real, tangible body all the same.

God is an actual Being; an actual Parent. He lives by law, like He commands us to do.

God *had to* send His Son to the earth to redeem man. He had no choice. He is a glorified, perfected, Man, who is doing all He can to save as many of HIs children as possible. But, in His effort, He is bound by law.

Other than the fact that He has all power over the physical world by speaking, He is not all that unlike us. Of course, He is immortal, glorified, and perfected, but is a Man with a wife and children, doing His all to provide for His children.

Adam is His son born with an immortal body. Adam chose to fall to bring about Father's plan of redemption.

This helps us see that God is a Real Person. He exists in space.

All of this I believe with the exception of Adam being "born" (not spiritually born and placed into a created physical body) with an immortal body. That, I am not sure about. In your previous post you say, essentially, if one believes Adam and Eve were born physically (not talking about their spiritual births previous to that) than that would explain the need for a body after this life. I don't grasp that logic. Why not say if we were first born spiritually then we should go back to living in spirit bodies forever? And if that is how we want to say it, then it doesn't matter where Adam and Eve's temporary bodies come from.

If Adam and Eve's bodies were created than, to me, that would be more consistent with a temporary existence. Are we not in a temporary existence? Yes, our spirits remain and are altered by this existence but are not lost and do not turn into dust in the end. Whereas, our physical bodies turn to dust at the end of this existence. So, I don't see the need for the physical body to have any direct divine ancestry.

I also don't see how defining how a temporary existence came into existence "helps us see that God is a Real Person." Whether Adam's body was created or "born" doesn't change the fact that God is a Real Person. How does that change that for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a highly speculative question and thus the answers will also be. Searching the scriptures for reliable answers, I came up with this on in Doctrine and Covenants Section 88. It discusses the "light of Christ."

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

Note that in verse 13, it says that the light of Christ gives life to all things. This light of Christ proceeds from the power of God and emanates in to space, touching all his creations. It is an influence of control or governance. It is not animate or alive--it is a property or attribute of the Living God.

Some people mistake this influence, which touches all of us, for God's presence itself, or the Holy Ghost. It is neither of those things. It is a medium by which God governs his creations and communicates his will to them. It also gives life, awareness, consciousness, understanding, order, etc.

Now, related to the topic at hand, can there be a body that is alive without a human spirit being present in it? I believe that it can be so. The light of Christ is capable of sustaining life independent of the presence of a human spirit.

Seeking another scriptural example, let's look at 3rd Nephi. The day before Jesus' birth, he spoke in a revelation to the prophet Nephi, telling him that his birth would take place the following day. Mary's child in her womb surely was alive, but apparently the Savior's spirit had not yet entered into it yet.

To me, that is one of the reasons why the Church has never said that a first trimester abortion is OK, but later one's aren't. The Church says that abortion, although it is a grievous sin, is not murder. It may be the case that the time that our spirits enter the mortal body varies. Perhaps some of us desire to begin our mortal existence in the womb from the moment of conception. Others may enter in somewhat later. There have been instances where "stillborn" children have come to life some 20 minutes after they entered this world. It may be our choice when we enter the mortal body. The body is alive all that time that it's in the womb, but there may be "nobody home." It gains its life force from the light of Christ.

I have not given much thought to how this applies to individuals at the end of life or in vegetative states. Like I said, this is highly speculative and I'm just trying to apply scriptures according to our best understanding.

D&C 88:15 tells us that the spirit and the body, joined together, form the "soul of man." A spirit and a body, inseparably joined in the resurrection can experience a "fullness of joy." (D&C 93:33-34)

What can this be termed in our current science field - the light of Christ that radiates every part of the creation - ? Could it be cosmic ray particles? Just food for thought…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What can this be termed in our current science field - the light of Christ that radiates every part of the creation - ? Could it be cosmic ray particles? Just food for thought…

It is light (possibly quite literally as you suggest) and it is truth, and it has always existed. The scriptures sometimes call it intelligence.

...Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29)

We can increase in this life giving light, until we know all things (perfect day, see D&C 50:24). As spamlds pointed out, it is the "divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things. It is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth." (see Guide to the Scriptures: Light, Light of Christ)

Regards,

Vanhin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeking another scriptural example, let's look at 3rd Nephi. The day before Jesus' birth, he spoke in a revelation to the prophet Nephi, telling him that his birth would take place the following day. Mary's child in her womb surely was alive, but apparently the Savior's spirit had not yet entered into it yet.

To me, that is one of the reasons why the Church has never said that a first trimester abortion is OK, but later one's aren't. The Church says that abortion, although it is a grievous sin, is not murder. It may be the case that the time that our spirits enter the mortal body varies. Perhaps some of us desire to begin our mortal existence in the womb from the moment of conception. Others may enter in somewhat later. There have been instances where "stillborn" children have come to life some 20 minutes after they entered this world. It may be our choice when we enter the mortal body. The body is alive all that time that it's in the womb, but there may be "nobody home." It gains its life force from the light of Christ.

I have not given much thought to how this applies to individuals at the end of life or in vegetative states. Like I said, this is highly speculative and I'm just trying to apply scriptures according to our best understanding.

spamlds,

I thought this was particularly insightful, and I have to admit that I had never thought of those passages in this way before.

Thanks,

Vanhin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Note that in verse 13, it says that the light of Christ gives life to all things. This light of Christ proceeds from the power of God and emanates in to space, touching all his creations. It is an influence of control or governance. It is not animate or alive--it is a property or attribute of the Living God.

Now, related to the topic at hand, can there be a body that is alive without a human spirit being present in it? I believe that it can be so. The light of Christ is capable of sustaining life independent of the presence of a human spirit.

Seeking another scriptural example, let's look at 3rd Nephi. The day before Jesus' birth, he spoke in a revelation to the prophet Nephi, telling him that his birth would take place the following day. Mary's child in her womb surely was alive, but apparently the Savior's spirit had not yet entered into it yet.

What prompted this thought process and posting this thread was recent discussion about evolution and the "first man". I had brought up the possibility that there were other hominids etc. before Adam and Eve but that those bodies had no spirit assigned to them. Nobody seemed to give that much attention so that is why I posted a new thread specifically about that topic.

So, if one believes "the light of Christ" can sustain life without having an individual spirit in it, then it would also be possible to have an evolution process for many years before the first "man" is created, the first "man" being by definition the first human who had the privilege of it also being combined with an individual spirit. This would satisfy the description that Adam is the first "man" on earth and yet there still be evidence of hominids and evolutionary change prior to the time we believe Adam was "created."

I would be curious what you think about applying what you just said about the light of Christ to the evolution discussion.

Thanks for your response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seminarysnoozer,

I don't think that what spamlds described means that creatures can actually function on their own (walk around, procreate, make tools, etc) without a spirit to give them "life".

Besides what you are suggesting still would mean that Adam's parents were not human. That a non-human species conceived and gave birth to a human. That's even more miraculous than a virgin birth.

I think it's more sound to believe that Adam's body was born to human parents and placed into the garden, if we don't want to believe that God simply formed the body like a potter forms clay objects. God "placed" animals and seeds of plants of every kind, presumably from other worlds, so the thought is not so far fetched in my opinion.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeking another scriptural example, let's look at 3rd Nephi. The day before Jesus' birth, he spoke in a revelation to the prophet Nephi, telling him that his birth would take place the following day. Mary's child in her womb surely was alive, but apparently the Savior's spirit had not yet entered into it yet.

Thanks Seminary Snoozer for capturing this, even I have missed it previously. The Savior's quote to Nephi was "Lift up your head and rejoice; be of good cheer, for this very night shall the sign be given, and tomorrow come I into the world." (3 Ne. 1:13) This pre-mortal birth statement made by the Savior, only stresses the nature and power of spiritual beings grand entrance into mortality. This statement gives credence to W. Cleon Skousen’s article and talk concerning the ‘The Real Meaning of the Atonement" (April 1977). Cleon perpetuates the answers by his personal search given by his mentor (Talmage) how the mortal body functions and why. Hearing the phrase, “…our bodies are a temple of GOD” now resonate with greater clarity. My opinion here, Cleon hit the hammer on the nail with great accuracy. Though, this is not light material to digest for any beginners and should always be read with an open mind in allowing the Spirit to guide the individual with discernment.

To sum it up, there is more than JUST ME that occupies this mortal shell.

Edited by Hemidakota

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seminarysnoozer,

I don't think that what spamlds described means that creatures can actually function on their own (walk around, procreate, make tools, etc) without a spirit to give them "life".

Besides what you are suggesting still would mean that Adam's parents were not human. That a non-human species conceived and gave birth to a human. That's even more miraculous than a virgin birth.

I think it's more sound to believe that Adam's body was born to human parents and placed into the garden, if we don't want to believe that God simply formed the body like a potter forms clay objects. God "placed" animals and seeds of plants of every kind, presumably from other worlds, so the thought is not so far fetched in my opinion.

Regards,

Vanhin

I think if you read through what I wrote again, I don't think I made mention of Adam's parents. Only that there could be enough of an evolutionary process of human like creatures to have enough of a substrate to sustain a "man" and then Adam and Eve could be introduced. Then there would be evidence of bodies around and yet those bodies never had individual spirits. So, there could be no "death" without an individual spirit for those bodies before there was actually a "man" with both body and spirit. That could be possible if life forms could be sustained with the light of Christ alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this