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I have a couple questions about the church. From what I understand, if I have a daughter getting married to another Mormon man in the temple, and I am an avid member on my church except that I have not paid my 10% tithing, I cannot attend her own wedding. Wouldn't Jesus Christ want her wedding to be a celebration with her entire family? Also, if I do not pay my tithing, I will not go into the Celestial Kingdom. So is this in a way, buying your way into Heaven?

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I have a couple questions about the church. From what I understand, if I have a daughter getting married to another Mormon man in the temple, and I am an avid member on my church except that I have not paid my 10% tithing, I cannot attend her own wedding. Wouldn't Jesus Christ want her wedding to be a celebration with her entire family? Also, if I do not pay my tithing, I will not go into the Celestial Kingdom. So is this in a way, buying your way into Heaven?

Tell me this: are you here to learn or to accuse us?

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I have a couple questions about the church. From what I understand, if I have a daughter getting married to another Mormon man in the temple, and I am an avid member on my church except that I have not paid my 10% tithing, I cannot attend her own wedding. Wouldn't Jesus Christ want her wedding to be a celebration with her entire family? Also, if I do not pay my tithing, I will not go into the Celestial Kingdom. So is this in a way, buying your way into Heaven?

I have a limited knowledge of heaven, i'm assuming most of us do. However I do know that I can not buy my way in.

Yes Jesus Christ does want weddings to be a celebration with the entire family present, and to accomplish this he has given us commandments that when we keep qualify us all for temple attendance. I really get tired of the tithing argument. Its a commandment from the bible, not one the church made. If you take issue with it maybe you should talk with God about it.

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Let's keep this simple, shall we? The temple is a sacred place where sacred ordinances are performed. Marriage for eternity is one such thing. To gain entrance to a sacred and holy place, one must be worthy. The marriage celebration can easily be shared with loved ones in the form of a reception. Don't get your feelings hurt because your daughter believes in certain truths that has given her the blessing of an eternal companion. If you care to share in her joy for these blessed abilities, I encourage you to learn more. Otherwise, you are only condemning your daughter and her beliefs.

TITHING-- If tithing is the only thing that is keeping you from the Celestial kingdom, Then sir, you are not very far from the top of the mountain ;) However, I am assuming, and maybe wrongfully so, that you are not a member. To take issue with a commandment that is thousands of years old is the least of your worries. Let me just state that before you scorn, it might be adventitious for you to do some serious study of scripture on your own, and kneel down in prayer to ask if Heaven really has a toll attached to it. The mere concept of Tithing is to show the Lord that you recognize His hand in all things to your temporal survival, and giving him a portion back of what he has given you. Abel did it. Although, it did cause a bit of sibling strife. Now that is indeed a heavy price to pay.:cool:

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Also, if I do not pay my tithing, I will not go into the Celestial Kingdom. So is this in a way, buying your way into Heaven?

That is correct. We also pray our way into heaven. And proselyte, and preach, and testify our way into heaven. We also abstain, and forsake, and repent our way into heaven. We also serve, and minister, and administer our way into heaven. We also praise, and rebuke, and forgive our way into heaven.

If tithing is all that's holding you back, I think I'd like to trade vices with you.

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The Bible tells us the importance of tithes. Malachi condemned his people for "robbing God" because they were not paying their tithes. Christ insisted that the tithes should continue, in conjunction with the weightier matters of the gospel.

Temple marriage is sacred. You not only have to fully pay tithes, but also be a member in good standing. That said, there's nothing to prevent your daughter and her fiancee from having a second ceremony afterwards where everyone is invited in another venue. Many do it to give non-LDS family members a chance to celebrate with the newlyweds.

For us, it isn't an issue of just opening up a banquet house where the family members can celebrate and get drunk. The temple marriage is a sacred ordinance between the couple and God. This is very different from most marriages, which are mostly focused on the couple, etc.

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Read chapter 3 of the book of Malachi in the Old Testament. That's one of the most oft-cited doctrinal references for tithing. The Lord does not need our money. He tests our faith by asking that we pay tithing. Faithful latter-day saints obey the law of tithing.

Tithing, in a sense, represents everything about the gospel. The test of life is whether we'll rise to faith in an unseen God and be obedient or whether we'll allow doubt to cheat us of his blessings. When we don't pay tithing, we allow our doubts to win. In Malachi, the Lord said:

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.

There are great promises associated with tithing. In essence, a person will pay for what he believes in. By the payment of tithing, Joseph Field Smith said, you know who is for the Lord and who is against him.

These seem to be hard words. The Lord recognized this and addressed this in the continuation of Malachi chapter 3:

13 ¶ Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?

14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of hosts?

Up until now, you considered it unimportant to pay tithing and keep it as an ordinance. Now, the blessings of tithing are unavailable and you "walk mournfully" before the Lord. Maybe you even consider the wicked who appear prosperous to be a model to emulate. Malachi continues:

15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

But to those who fear the Lord and are obedient, including those who repent and obey, the Lord makes great promises that they will be his "jewels" when he comes again.

16 ¶ Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Tithing is one of the ways we can discern the righteous from the wicked, between those who serve God and those who don't.

I don't mean to sound judgmental, but your question itself reveals that you're not ready to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances. They only have value to those who are properly prepared and who have made the appropriate sacrifices.

Because of the atonement of Christ, you can still repent and receive the blessings of tithing and those of the temple. Repentance is a wonderful thing and it brings peace and closeness to the Spirit.

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That said, there's nothing to prevent your daughter and her fiancee from having a second ceremony afterwards where everyone is invited in another venue.

That's only sort of true, church policy specifically forbids such a second ceremony, unless it's a simple "ring" ceremony, but a second wedding ceremony is not sanctioned by the church. The only exception is in countries where a civil wedding is required first, then they go to the temple afterwards.
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OP, Heavenly Father asks us to give HIM back 10% of everything HE gives us. That a small price to pay to be worthy to enter HIS house.

My brother was in your position. When his daughter got married, his bishop offered him a recommend on the promise he would start paying his tithing. I'm very proud of him, he refused. He said I've not paid it and I'm not worthy to be there. He met the family outside later. His wife (now ex) lied and was there. Her sin was worse a lot worse than not paying tithing. She's not only left her family but the church. Not paying tithing can be the first step to apostacy.

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Isn't becoming a new member all about learning about the church, and the question comes up, so why are you jumping down my throat? It's not an accusation, it's just a simple question. And if you get tired of answering this question, then you must not fully believe in it or understand it. Why must it be 10% though? Isn't God accepting of any sum? And for the temple ceremonies, why are they so secretive? Shouldn't a new member understand, probably what most regard as the most important aspect of the church?

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That's only sort of true, church policy specifically forbids such a second ceremony, unless it's a simple "ring" ceremony, but a second wedding ceremony is not sanctioned by the church. The only exception is in countries where a civil wedding is required first, then they go to the temple afterwards.

Actually I think the word "simple" might need to be defined first. I've read some posts on RFM and MADB and it appears that the LDS church (or should I say leaders in the church) have given members a lot of freedom when it comes to planning their ring ceremonies. Which is great, IMO.

M.

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I have a couple questions about the church. From what I understand, if I have a daughter getting married to another Mormon man in the temple, and I am an avid member on my church except that I have not paid my 10% tithing, I cannot attend her own wedding. Wouldn't Jesus Christ want her wedding to be a celebration with her entire family? Also, if I do not pay my tithing, I will not go into the Celestial Kingdom. So is this in a way, buying your way into Heaven?

In providing some thoughts here, did the Savior pay tithing? If He did, wouldn't we as Christians follow the same path?

However, receiving the fullness of the Priesthood or sealing of eternal marriage, tithing is a lesser concern to which she and her beloved companion, will covenant with GOD and the Savior, they will give their talents, riches, time, and physical abilities in building the Kingdom of GOD on this earth and to HIS Son. The Savior may require of them a greater charge than you...

Do you remember in the Book of Acts, when a couple was told by Peter to sell all of their goods and give it to the church? What happen to this couple when they sold their goods?

Even the members of the kingdom may be required from time-to-time to follow the same path. Paying ten percent of one's income pales in giving it all to the Savior - following the exemplar manner of the Widow's mite. Who in the end receives the greater blessing? What was the Savior's words concerning this widow?

Edited by Hemidakota
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The young woman that calls me her daddy is 17, she'll get married in the temple in a couple of years. We've talked a lot about it and she know i will not be at her wedding. She knows i would do anything to be there with her on that wonderful day, but she also knows that i do not agree with the church. Out of respect for her faith and the other members of this faith i will not try and get around the dictates of her church, nor will i whine because i am not willing to follow their doctrines. If you do not like or want to follow the things that are set before you then that is a choice, that being said you can not complain about the results of these choices in the future course of your life including attending temple weddings.

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. Why must it be 10% though? Isn't God accepting of any sum?

Tithing by its very definition is 10%. As to why this is, I don't know, I suggest you ask God, as He is the one who commanded it.

And for the temple ceremonies, why are they so secretive?

They are not secret, they are sacred. There is a big difference between the two. A determined person could easily find transcripts of the temple ceremony on the internet. We don't talk openly about them because of the sacred nature of the ceremonies, signs, and symbols used in the temple. I will say this much: you will find that the more you study the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is much symbolism contained in it, and there are multiple layers of understanding to be gained depending on your level of spiritual growth. Regular temple attendance helps you understand and see those signs and symbols, and how they pertain to your individual quest for working out your salvation. Much personal revelation can be received in the House of The Lord, but you must be worthy and ready to receive it to fully understand it.

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Sorry for the double post, but you Applepansy, you are proud of your brother for not attending his own daughter's wedding?

I'm proud of my brother for being honest about his worthiness to enter the House of the Lord. We were all sad he couldn't be there for the sealing. But he was there for everything else.

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I have a couple questions about the church. From what I understand, if I have a daughter getting married to another Mormon man in the temple, and I am an avid member on my church except that I have not paid my 10% tithing, I cannot attend her own wedding. Wouldn't Jesus Christ want her wedding to be a celebration with her entire family? Also, if I do not pay my tithing, I will not go into the Celestial Kingdom. So is this in a way, buying your way into Heaven?

I'm a little confused. Are you LDS?

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Why must it be 10% though? Isn't God accepting of any sum??

We could claim all kinds of arguments for this based on historical precedents and entymology, but the relevant answer for why this church dictates this amount is that Joseph received a revelation on it. See D&c 119:3-4

And for the temple ceremonies, why are they so secretive? Shouldn't a new member understand, probably what most regard as the most important aspect of the church?

There's a great quote from Joseph Smith that members like to quote. "God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 149). About three years later, he gave a similar quote. "There was nothing made known to these men (well-known church leaders) but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days." (History of the Church 5:2) This remark was given after the Prophet gave the Endowment for the first time.

So I chuckle on the inside at the perception that the temple ordinances are secret, since they're secrets we want to let everyone in on (in the proper context of course).

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Isn't becoming a new member all about learning about the church, and the question comes up, so why are you jumping down my throat? It's not an accusation, it's just a simple question.

You obviously think you're insanely clever for having come up with this pretend-I'm-an-honest-inquirer-just-looking-for-the-truth shpiel.

You aren't the first, you won't be the last, and we can all smell it a mile away.

And if you get tired of answering this question, then you must not fully believe in it or understand it.

And if you get tired of hearing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" played twenty times a day, you must either not fully believe in it or understand it.

Why must it be 10% though? Isn't God accepting of any sum?

I don't know about your god, but the God of the Bible can be pretty darned picky.

And for the temple ceremonies, why are they so secretive? Shouldn't a new member understand, probably what most regard as the most important aspect of the church?

Only about five minutes' worth of the ninety-minute endowment ceremony are secret, and there really isn't that much to "understand" about that part.

The rest isn't "secret". It's just very, very special to us; and we feel no compulsion to explain it in detail to disingenuous chuckleheads whom we know would only want to tear it apart.

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Isn't becoming a new member all about learning about the church, and the question comes up, so why are you jumping down my throat?

Because your question is worded similarly to any number of ages-old antimormon cut-and-paste criticisms. I'm not saying that's what you're doing. I'm happy taking you at your word, that you're just looking for information. But we're a little 'once-bitten-twice-shy' around here. It's like when someone walks into a room full of Jews and asks them what they think about who killed Christ - they're going to be a bit touchy and on guard.

It's not an accusation, it's just a simple question. And if you get tired of answering this question, then you must not fully believe in it or understand it.

See, following a claim of innocence with an accusation, is sort of what's making some of us touchy.

Why must it be 10% though? Isn't God accepting of any sum?

Here is a chapter from an introductory Sunday School course on the subject - perhaps it can help. But basically:

In modern times the Prophet Joseph Smith prayed, “O Lord, show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing” (D&C 119). The Lord answered: “This shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:3–4). The First Presidency has explained that “one-tenth of all their interest annually” refers to our income.

So you see, one thing about us Mormons, is we have modern revelation that occasionally pretty straighforwardly clears up confusion on certain topics.

And for the temple ceremonies, why are they so secretive? Shouldn't a new member understand, probably what most regard as the most important aspect of the church?

Absolutely. If you're interested, there are no shortage of sources of information if you want to know all about them. Chapters 38 and 40 of the link above, for example, give a very brief overview. A book called The Holy Temple is available for eight bucks on Amazon.com, including shipping. Amazon.com suggests a dozen other books for people interested in the subject, with names like "Endowed from on High: Understanding the Symbols of the Endowment" and "Prepare Now for the Temple" and "Temple Worship: 20 Truths That Will Bless Your Life" and "300 Questions LDS Couples Should Ask Before Marriage"

Yes indeed, a new member should understand that LDS folks are big on temples. And there's absolutely no good reason for a potential member to keep themselves in the dark about who mormons are or what we do.

But if you're looking for quickie message board answers about some pretty deeply held and sacred subjects, then you might be a little dissapointed in our ability to provide them.

Hope this helps,

LM

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Brother Keefe,

No one is "jumping down your throat." You say you are a new member. If you've already related to others about your conversion, I beg your pardon if I am ignorant of your situation.

Nevertheless, I was once a missionary for the Church. I'm also a branch president today. I know that the missionary lessons explicitly teach that faithful members of the Church observe the law of tithing, that it means paying ten percent of one's income.

During the baptismal interview with the missionary district leader or zone leader, baptismal candidates are specifically questioned about their understanding of and their acceptance of various gospel principles. The interviewer specifically asks the potential member if he will promise to live the law of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, the law of chastity, keep the Sabbath day holy, etc.

I'm a convert myself. I recall the interview and the sobering weight of the commitments. It takes a testimony of the gospel to accept them and great faith to commit to live them. As a missionary, I had the privilege of doing baptismal interviews. Recently, I was asked to sit in as a translator for a baptismal interview of a brother who speaks Haitian Creole, French, and English. I was there to assist in case of any problems understanding. I found that the baptismal questions are the same, some 30 years after my mission.

Many people, especially those who convert from a "saved by grace alone" background who never came to terms with the idea that God expects obedience and sacrifice have trouble adjusting to them.

Brother Keefe, you've joined a people whose pioneer ancestors sacrificed everything for the gospel. They were driven from their homes, tarred and feathered, and were even murdered by anti-Mormon mobs in the 19th century. They walked across the Plains to a "God-forsaken" wilderness that nobody else wanted. They went out to the nations preaching without purse or scrip and built up the kingdom from nothing. They made those sacrifices in the depths of poverty.

There are still pioneers among us today. In America, as well as in distant nations, many people risk becoming disowned by their loved ones, fired from their jobs, receive harassment and ostracism from their neighbors and co-workers--all because they joined the Church. As a new member, you are now a pioneer in your own family. It is a privilege to be called upon to sacrifice for the kingdom of God. God's greatest blessings rain down from heaven upon those who forsake the world and follow him.

I would encourage you to regard the payment of tithing as an honor and a privilege. Doing so enriches your soul, fills your faith with power, and pulls down blessings upon your head and those who will follow after you.

From personal experience I can say that a person cannot pay tithing and fail to come to a personal witness that God is real and is mindful of his needs.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a couple questions about the church. From what I understand, if I have a daughter getting married to another Mormon man in the temple, and I am an avid member on my church except that I have not paid my 10% tithing, I cannot attend her own wedding. Wouldn't Jesus Christ want her wedding to be a celebration with her entire family? Also, if I do not pay my tithing, I will not go into the Celestial Kingdom. So is this in a way, buying your way into Heaven?

if you are not an LDS with an active temple recommend you wil not be able to attend what is called the sealing ceremony in the temple (where a couple are united for all time even after death).

Many LDS people like to have an additional wedding ceremony outside the temple for everyone who can't be in the temple, both for the family and also so that they can be officially recognised as being married.

And no paying tithing doesnt buy your way into heaven... you get many blessings from it, but that is not what it guarentees.

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  • 1 month later...

Isn't becoming a new member all about learning about the church, and the question comes up, so why are you jumping down my throat? It's not an accusation, it's just a simple question. And if you get tired of answering this question, then you must not fully believe in it or understand it. Why must it be 10% though? Isn't God accepting of any sum? And for the temple ceremonies, why are they so secretive? Shouldn't a new member understand, probably what most regard as the most important aspect of the church?

Hi Don,

I agree becoming a new member is all about learning. But a serious investigator must be a good student, and good students do their homework in addition to raising their hand in class. I strongly urge you to first spend time on Mormon.org to read up on the fundamentals, where things like tithing and temple ceremonies are covered.

You'll ask much better questions here if you start from a position of fundamental knowledge. No forum can't substitute for self study on the fundamentals.

Now to your questions:

- The OT said 10%, and you do have the choice of giving 0-100%.

- Temple answers

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We could claim all kinds of arguments for this based on historical precedents and entymology, but the relevant answer for why this church dictates this amount is that Joseph received a revelation on it. See D&c 119:3-4

Sorry to be picky, but entomology is the study of insects, while etymology is the study of the history of words.

Absolutely. If you're interested, there are no shortage of sources of information if you want to know all about them. Chapters 38 and 40 of the link above, for example, give a very brief overview. A book called The Holy Temple is available for eight bucks on Amazon.com, including shipping. Amazon.com suggests a dozen other books for people interested in the subject, with names like "Endowed from on High: Understanding the Symbols of the Endowment" and "Prepare Now for the Temple" and "Temple Worship: 20 Truths That Will Bless Your Life" and "300 Questions LDS Couples Should Ask Before Marriage"

The booklet Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple, which is linked to above, is available through LDS Catalog online for free. It can be found here. Another reference I thought of was Temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has photographs and drawings of the inside and outside of many temples all over the world, as well as articles about the significance of temples and things associated with them. It is available for $2 here.

Edited by Wingnut
I'm an idiot
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