Are there greater Gods out there.


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I don't see anything in any of the sources of latter-day saint official doctrine that suggests that God has not always been God. On the contrary, the scriptures teach that He is God from everlasting to everlasting.

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; (D&C 20:17-18)

If there are gods greater than the Most High God, latter-day scriptures make no mention of him. We are therefore oblidged and bound to accept that there indeed is no other God.

We, as offsprings of the Great Framer of the Universe, are by virtue of our existence gods in the sense that our spirits are co-eternal with God and our potential is to become heirs and join heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17) - kings and priests, and queens and priestesses unto the Most High God forever and ever, but we are not "The God". We are his children.

As to the origin of the Eternal Father we call God, we do not know. We do know that He is an exalted Man and has an immortal, glorified body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22), and therefore has completed a process of mortality whereby he gained a physical body, but like Jesus Christ, He was God before, during, and after his mortal experience.

On the origin of God and mankind, Joseph Smith taught the following:

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” (History of the Church, 6:310–12; capitalization modernized; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 7, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton; see also appendix, page 562, item 3.)

The above statement is in harmony with our current canon of scripture, concerning God.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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Nobody knows the answers to these questions. And when I say that, I will usually have somebody say that I don't know the answers to these questions, but that others have been blessed to know the answers. Usually hinting that it was they, themselves, who know.

Sooo true. Of course we are all in different places along the stretch of "line upon line" learning. I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that anyone is so far down this line that God would reveal the truth of such matters to anyone here in this life. Call me a simpleton, but all the pondering, praying, and meditating on such silly questions is never going to get THE answer. In all likelihood, God will tell you, "You are on a need to know basis, and you dont need to know."

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Justice, the OP asks a "choice" question - "Is it this or is it that?" and you answer by saying No. How does that help?

M.

The answer of "no" is just as helpful as every other "answer" that is going to be provided by anyone here. None of them are helpful as no one here as any insight to this question. Its silly.

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The answer of "no" is just as helpful as every other "answer" that is going to be provided by anyone here. None of them are helpful as no one here as any insight to this question. Its silly.

How is wanting to know who God is, or how his existence relates to us or "other gods" if they do exist, silly?

M.

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How is wanting to know who God is, or how his existence relates to us or "other gods" if they do exist, silly?

M.

That is not the same question. We know enough about God already. He is a personage of flesh and blood, he is our Father, and we were created in his image. We know we can become like him if we are obedient. Every endowed member could go on and on about his nature and his relevance to us. Those things are important and what we should be pondering on.

Whether or not we have a Grandpa god or Uncle god is a silly, irrelevant question.

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That is not the same question. We know enough about God already. He is a personage of flesh and blood, he is our Father, and we were created in his image. We know we can become like him if we are obedient. Every endowed member could go on and on about his nature and his relevance to us. Those things are important and what we should be pondering on.

Whether or not we have a Grandpa god or Uncle god is a silly, irrelevant question.

Of course its not irrelevant or silly, is your mortal Grandfather, Uncle etc irrelevant and silly? even if they are dead you still wonder and some of the stories you know will be wrong as they carry further down the line, but children brought up with even a false family tradition are believed to be more grounded

The First Presidency ask us to learn, be educated and enquire. Its something earlier prophets themselves discussed. For you it maybe irrelevant and silly but for another LDS at a different stage it maybe important. There are clues and impressions all around us, and each of us has the gift of the Holy Ghost Maybe at your stage you know enough but you can;t dictate that for another person who has a different education, different upbringing, different relationship with God

There is no such thing as secular learning everything we learn outside of church informs our beliefs and helps us grow as Latter Day Saints. So someone who has studied physics will muse on different things, someone who has studied biology or chemistry will have differnet understandings to a psychologist, historian or archaeologist. Someone who has studied law will read the scriptures differently.

And this is why discussions are important someone may read one post and use it to tweak their own personal beliefs and understandings

Edited by Elgama
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The answer of "no" is just as helpful as every other "answer" that is going to be provided by anyone here. None of them are helpful as no one here as any insight to this question. Its silly.

Truth be told, I have found Vahnin's posts on discussions like these to be very helpful. I'm sure we're all aware of the accusation that we aren't really Christian because we believe in a whole slew of Gods, including God and his father and his father (I would call them Godfather and Great-Godfather, but it seems almost blasphemous). Before I came to this site, I could very well see their side of things - that we only worship our God because he hasn't revealed anything about the others and what their relationship is with us. Vahnin has pointed out that this model of endless generations of Gods is not necessarily what we believe (it may be what you believe, but it is not a teaching of the Church).

I haven't fully aligned myself with Vahnin's way of thinking, but I am glad that he's pointed out that most of what we think we know about the origin of God is tradition/speculation built on a few quotes. We need to re-examine our foundations and see which are solid.

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That is not the same question. We know enough about God already. He is a personage of flesh and blood, he is our Father, and we were created in his image. We know we can become like him if we are obedient. Every endowed member could go on and on about his nature and his relevance to us. Those things are important and what we should be pondering on.

Whether or not we have a Grandpa god or Uncle god is a silly, irrelevant question.

I think the origin of God (including his genealogy) is very important. If God has always been God, and has always been as he is, then what hope do I have of ever becoming like him? Is it our claim that the Supreme Intelligence, out of the goodness of his heart, has extended equality to us (through his Son) through a program that was unavailable to himself? Or is he exposing a process that he's been through so that we can walk the same path and reap the same reward? Or is this a path that's been walked for eons and God had a guide to that path the same as us?

If we do not understand God, we do not understand ourselves.

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I think the origin of God (including his genealogy) is very important. If God has always been God, and has always been as he is, then what hope do I have of ever becoming like him? Is it our claim that the Supreme Intelligence, out of the goodness of his heart, has extended equality to us (through his Son) through a program that was unavailable to himself? Or is he exposing a process that he's been through so that we can walk the same path and reap the same reward? Or is this a path that's been walked for eons and God had a guide to that path the same as us?

If we do not understand God, we do not understand ourselves.

I believe that God has revealed enough on each of the questions that have been posed to satisfy our knowledge requirement for the purpose of our mortal existence. Why waste time on other matters when we can't learn to love our neighbors, do our home teaching, forgive one another, ask for forgiveness, exercise faith, pay tithing, set a good example, be slow to anger. . . etc, etc, etc. (Here is the part where everyone thinks to themselves, "Oh, I do those things already". Obviously this guy and I are on different levels.") Ought we not recognize that we need to get back to basics? Isnt that why the FP asked us to study Gospel Principles this year?

If you all have mastered these subjects, then by all means go ponder on whether or not Adam had a belly-button, whether Lilith preceded Eve, whether the flood covered the whole earth or just part of it, or the specifics of Christ's conception. Maybe we can even speculate on the date and time of Christ's second coming!

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I believe that God has revealed enough on each of the questions that have been posed to satisfy our knowledge requirement for the purpose of our mortal existence. Why waste time on other matters when we can't learn to love our neighbors, do our home teaching, forgive one another, ask for forgiveness, exercise faith, pay tithing, set a good example, be slow to anger. . . etc, etc, etc.

It was pointed out earlier that much of the knowledge we do have about the nature of God came because somebody pondered and asked. By your same line of thinking, why do we need the Book of Mormon when it states in the intro that the Bible contains the fulness of the gospel? Why should we care if God said anything to anyone else? His word in the Bible tells us everything we need for our salvation.

If you don't care about the topic, disengage. Otherwise, enjoy the variety of perspectives and insights of others.

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It was pointed out earlier that much of the knowledge we do have about the nature of God came because somebody pondered and asked. By your same line of thinking, why do we need the Book of Mormon when it states in the intro that the Bible contains the fulness of the gospel? Why should we care if God said anything to anyone else? His word in the Bible tells us everything we need for our salvation.

If you don't care about the topic, disengage. Otherwise, enjoy the variety of perspectives and insights of others.

The question about the Book of Mormon would be a good topic on its own. Go post it.

Obviously I do care about the topic, though differently than others, and therefor I am adding to the perspective and insight. Am I not free to do that?

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Justice, the OP asks a "choice" question - "Is it this or is it that?" and you answer by saying No. How does that help?

or has he always been God with no other greater than he?

No.

Sorry, I was directing my comment to the last portion of the statement.

We've had this discussion so many times on this forum already.

Many people place "what can't be understood" on God, when in fact, it should be placed on "eternal and infinte."

God reveals His will, and reveals His character and attributes to those who listen. It is revealed all throughout nature, all throughout the scriptures, and all throughout the life of Christ. We have to open our minds, and set aside the understanding of men, in order to see it. If we read scriptures with a pre-conceived notion, we will walk away from the reading with that pre-conceived notion. Many "read into" the scriptures what they believe.

Many want to believe that God cannot be understood. They think this makes Him more wonderful, more powerful, and more trustworthy. After spending 30+ years in the scriptures, I think the opposite.

God is a glorified, perfected Man (the Father of all men and women that will ever live on earth) who has a glorified, perfected Wife. We are His offspring and He is trying to give us what He has. He became glorified and perfected and is doing everything He can to make that happen for us.

One of the greatest evidences of this is that the Father sent His Son to suffer, bleed, and die for us. If God was "all powerful" in the way many think, and can set and create His own laws, He would not make that a condition. Also, He would make it so ALL His children would be saved. He cannot do either, and must abide eternal law while trying to perfect His children.

The fact that He sent His Son is proof God follows laws, just as He commands us to do, and by that we know that by following law is the only way we can be perfected.

God is real. He exists in space. He is corporeal. He has a body just as tangible as man's. He has children, and He is undertaking to perfect them.

Edited by Justice
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Was Heavenly Father first created a man like Adam by someone greater than himself, and did he need to go through a probationary period to obtain Godhood, or has he always been God with no other greater than he?

Why do you want to know? The problem I have learned, using Joseph Smith as an example. While translating the Book of Abraham, he asked the Savior about the multiply wives this great prophet had and how it was done. That was the problem. He asked about something that now, he must abide by the answer. Receiving this answer in 1831, he hid this scrap piece paper that contains the revelation from his wife - Emma. But, the Lord told Joseph now to live this patriarchal principle. It took ten-years and one destroying angel to force his hand. He asks and he received the answer; now, he had to live the principle.

We need always think before asking for something that may either emotionally impact our lives forever or told to live to a higher standard than the current state.

When in a conversation with one of my daughters this week, another older daughter asks to see something of the same nature. You know, some are stronger spiritually and mature enough in seeing an event [a veil moment] or receive dreams of greater magnitude. I told her, she wasn’t ready and that it may affect her emotions when viewing this [future events].

Again, are you truly asking for something that may affect you the wrong way? For what purpose will this aid your salvation in mortality? Food for thought…

God bless...

Edited by Hemidakota
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I believe that God has revealed enough on each of the questions that have been posed to satisfy our knowledge requirement for the purpose of our mortal existence. Why waste time on other matters when we can't learn to love our neighbors, do our home teaching, forgive one another, ask for forgiveness, exercise faith, pay tithing, set a good example, be slow to anger. . . etc, etc, etc. (Here is the part where everyone thinks to themselves, "Oh, I do those things already". Obviously this guy and I are on different levels.") Ought we not recognize that we need to get back to basics? Isnt that why the FP asked us to study Gospel Principles this year?

If you all have mastered these subjects, then by all means go ponder on whether or not Adam had a belly-button, whether Lilith preceded Eve, whether the flood covered the whole earth or just part of it, or the specifics of Christ's conception. Maybe we can even speculate on the date and time of Christ's second coming!

When we master the basics and mature enough to receive the greater knowledge, then yes...it would appropriate then to ask. I do agree your basic statement...

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Which is sillier. . . The fact that someone thinks someone here can answer questions like this, or the fact that some people here think it can be answered?

I asked the question to see how people would answer it. I was curious about what everyday Latter Day Saints may think about the topic. My question wasn't silly, nor do I believe that the honest attempts to answer the question are silly. I am learning something here.

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Why do you want to know? The problem I have learned, using Joseph Smith as an example. While translating the Book of Abraham, he asked the Savior about the multiply wives this great prophet had and how it was done. That was the problem. He asked about something that now, he must abide by the answer. Receiving this answer in 1831, he hid this scrap piece paper that contains the revelation from his wife - Emma. But, the Lord told Joseph now to live this patriarchal principle. It took ten-years and one destroying angel to force his hand. He asks and he received the answer; now, he had to live the principle.

We need always think before asking for something that may either emotionally impact our lives forever or told to live to a higher standard than the current state.

When in a conversation with one of my daughters this week, another older daughter asks to see something of the same nature. You know, some are stronger spiritually and mature enough in seeing an event [a veil moment] or receive dreams of greater magnitude. I told her, she wasn’t ready and that it may affect her emotions when viewing this [future events].

Again, are you truly asking for something that may affect you the wrong way? For what purpose will this aid your salvation in mortality? Food for thought…

God bless...

Years ago, in a meeting with my pastor, I asked, "If God knows everything, the past, present, and future then Adam partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was certainly no 'oops' moment for God, and since God is all-powerful didn't that mean that God intended for Adam to partake of the fruit?" My pastor's answer was that I endangered my eternal soul with such questions. Such an answer made me a little grumpy.

Imagine my delight at having that very question satisfactorily answered by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I've also had some well-meaning folk, in the Church, when I asked a difficult question, ask me in return, "How does that affect your salvation?" Which to me is like receiving a stone when I asked for bread. I prefer an honest answer to an honest question, and am grateful when they come my way. I may not agree with an answer, but it is in asking the question and testing the answers that I grow and learn. So, in my mind, this question has a great deal to do with my eternal salvation.

Edited by ronism99403
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Pseudo-doctrine is a passionate subject for many LDS members. I think pseudo-doctrine can potentially chase converts away and I strongly dislike it.

Nobody knows the answers to these questions. And when I say that, I will usually have somebody say that I don't know the answers to these questions, but that others have been blessed to know the answers. Usually hinting that it was they, themselves, who know.

But they don't. If the brethren with the keys to know those things knew it, it would no longer be pseudo-doctrine.

It would be doctrine.

Being a convert, had the missionaries who gave the discussions to me merely dismissed my many, and sometimes difficult questions, had they tried to redirect me from some of the more odd statements made by a few 19th century apostles, I would have become suspicious. As it were, with one exception, they engaged me honestly, and when they did not know the answer to one of my questions or concerns, they directed me to someone who did. When all was said and done, those things that still troubled me about Mormonism, were not enough reason for me not to get baptized. Today, there are still things that puzzle me about Mormon belief, doctrine, history etc with which I still wrestle. Therefore I ask questions.

Edited by ronism99403
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This resonate with the question about our universe. The question is always asked, "Is our universe infinite or not? I would reply, "...its depends on your point of observation. From sitting on the earth, it will appear to be infinite. From a person beyond the universe boundary, the universe may not be infinite." Seeing from this advantage point in a 4-D versus 3-D perspective, the whole image is different than the person seeing it in a 3-D world. "Observation view based on location is alter, thus knowledge is increased based on view of observation."

Educational reasoning in theology, when we can locate where our GOD [FATHER] resides within this universe, it will answer that question. If GOD can be found in the center of our own galaxy, we can academically reason here, call HIM the creator of such of that realm. But it leaves the open end question, whom is above HIM since HE is located in the galaxy? If HE can be found at the center of this universe, HE is the creator of it all. This reasoning will give a person logical assumption, there is but one GOD. In finding HIS residence, gives credence to what is before HIM, whether it is HIM only or more than HIM.

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I asked the question to see how people would answer it. I was curious about what everyday Latter Day Saints may think about the topic. My question wasn't silly, nor do I believe that the honest attempts to answer the question are silly. I am learning something here.

Fair response. I understand the desire to learn and perhaps I was hasty in my choice of words. I suppose from my perspective, there is no man on this earth that knows the answer to such questions. When you posed these questions, like this one, are you really expecting a stranger or a 19 year old missionary to give you the answer? Do you think that someone here knows? Suppose someone in this forum, or a missionary told you that God was indeed a son of another god, and he the son of another etc etc. That He was in fact a guy named Bill that live several trillion years ago on some other planet of gods and he has lots of brother gods and uncle gods. Would you stop and say to yourself, "sweet, I now know that the Mormon church is a)totally true or b)totally insane. I now am ready to start trying my hardest to be good so I can be a god too." Why is this question vital to your salvation? I dont think its necessarily wrong to ask the question, because of course the question is tantalizing. But for one to actually think that a straight, DIRECT answer to that question is going to be answered doesnt make any sense. And for one to whom the question is posed, what is wrong with simply saying, "I cant answer that because I do not know"? Even further, if you found out that god was indeed descended from other gods, you are still left with the same question you started with. . . who did they descend from? If God is the first, the only, and last God, you still still have the question of how did he become. Do you see what Im saying? The question will simply not ever be answered here. It does not need to be.

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I suppose from my perspective, there is no man on this earth that knows the answer to such questions...

The question will simply not ever be answered here. It does not need to be.

But it does.

Moroni 10:

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

It's sad to me when I hear people say these questions cannot be answered.

Does God know the answer?

Well, of course.

So, when I hear people say no man can know the answer, it sounds akin to Korihor and Nehor who taught that no man can know God. Which, all that is really saying is that God will not speak to man. Because if God knows the answer, either He can or cannot communicate it to man.

I believe He can... and does.

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But it does.

Moroni 10:

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

It's sad to me when I hear people say these questions cannot be answered.

Does God know the answer?

Well, of course.

So, when I hear people say no man can know the answer, it sounds akin to Korihor and Nehor who taught that no man can know God. Which, all that is really saying is that God will not speak to man. Because if God knows the answer, either He can or cannot communicate it to man.

I believe He can... and does.

You are completely missing the point. And btw, thank you for comparing me to such characters. Feel free to call me the antichrist too.

Im not stating that God cannot, will not, or does not answer prayers. I have a deep testimony that He does talk to man and reveals many truths to those who earnestly ask.

There are several examples in the scriptures that state that the heavens were opened certain individuals, like Nephi and Lehi. There is obviously a reason that certain truths have not been revealed to us, and a good chance that they will not be revealed to us in this lifetime. I believe that this question is one of them. It is not a matter of "either He can or cannot communicate to man". That is far to simple. You know that. As strange as it sounds, some prayers are answered, by not being answered. Some prayers may be answered partially.

This has turned into nothing more than a battle of wills, so Ill sign off.

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Fair response. I understand the desire to learn and perhaps I was hasty in my choice of words. I suppose from my perspective, there is no man on this earth that knows the answer to such questions. When you posed these questions, like this one, are you really expecting a stranger or a 19 year old missionary to give you the answer? Do you think that someone here knows? Suppose someone in this forum, or a missionary told you that God was indeed a son of another god, and he the son of another etc etc. That He was in fact a guy named Bill that live several trillion years ago on some other planet of gods and he has lots of brother gods and uncle gods. Would you stop and say to yourself, "sweet, I now know that the Mormon church is a)totally true or b)totally insane. I now am ready to start trying my hardest to be good so I can be a god too." Why is this question vital to your salvation? I dont think its necessarily wrong to ask the question, because of course the question is tantalizing. But for one to actually think that a straight, DIRECT answer to that question is going to be answered doesnt make any sense. And for one to whom the question is posed, what is wrong with simply saying, "I cant answer that because I do not know"? Even further, if you found out that god was indeed descended from other gods, you are still left with the same question you started with. . . who did they descend from? If God is the first, the only, and last God, you still still have the question of how did he become. Do you see what Im saying? The question will simply not ever be answered here. It does not need to be.

to me its sounds like most people want to increase their understanding rather than find exact ancestors. And I have known wise 19 year old missionaries who could have given an intelligent response.

And there is nothing wrong with saying this is my understanding at this stage in my life. Just because I may not get back to Adam in my family history doesn't mean I shouldn't start it

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It's sad to me when I hear people say these questions cannot be answered.

Does God know the answer?

Well, of course.

So, when I hear people say no man can know the answer, it sounds akin to Korihor and Nehor who taught that no man can know God. Which, all that is really saying is that God will not speak to man. Because if God knows the answer, either He can or cannot communicate it to man.

I believe He can... and does.

It always come back to faith and the desire of the individual in gaining the knowledge.

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Perhaps I should rephrase the question. Did Heavenly Father become God or has he always been God?

I believe God has always been God, is God, and will always be God.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Emphasis is mine.)

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