Please explain the Godhead


Recommended Posts

I'm aware of the flame war that this thread could potentially start, so I'm asking that only Latter-day Saints post and that they remain respectful of people of all faiths (including their own).

I've seen many threads where a pos(t)er will ask us to explain a Bible verse (usually in Isaiah) and it ends in an argument about whether the Trinity is bogus and how presumptuous we are to think we can become gods. I have seen in these threads that not every Christian believes the same thing (thanks PrisonChaplain for your many useful posts), and it got me wondering if we do too.

(This is the last part of the intro I promise). I've observed that there are 7 statements that most Christians (including LDS) believe regarding God (I know there's some who don't believe 4-6, but we do so I'm keeping them :)):

  • The Father is God
  • The Son is God
  • The Holy Ghost is God
  • The Father is not the Son; nor is the Son the Father
  • The Son is not the Holy Ghost; nor is the Holy Ghost the Son
  • The Holy Ghost is not the Father; nor is the Father the Holy Ghost
  • God is one

How do you reconcile the 7th statement with the other 6? What does that mean to you? What does your answer mean for God's children?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 76
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Purpose ? I would say in short, they give and save humans lifes, that is my logical thinking but you want answers with some verses from scriptures, I think ? Please, give first some of your details and explain, how you think before I or anyone answers you on your question ? And I don't wan't to wrangle here that is not my point becase there will not be answers on your questions from me! Thank you

Edited by Gerasim
corections
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can understand some reticence to engage in this dialogue since it is often a cover for more nefarious motives (and I am fairly new here - so you won't know me from Lucy). I'll proceed and hope that trust and discussion pick up in the morning. I'll start, just to prime the pump.

So the way I think of each member being God, while still there being only one God is that "God" is an overloaded operator. It has two different meanings within the same sentence. So the first three statement I listed above used the term "God" as being a member of the Godhead, while the seventh used the term "God" as a synonym for Godhead. Our priesthood presidencies are patterned after the Godhead in a similar manner. We refer to all three members of the First Presidency as "President", when there really is only one president of the Church. Yet each one can be given the fulness of the Presidency when they go out and visit solo (similarly Christ had the fulness of the Godhead while on earth).

There are other ways that I think the 7th statement is reconciled with the other 6, but I'll wait for a few more posts before I share those because I'd love to hear some other perspectives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

mordorbund,

Hey there. There is a flurry of similar questions on the forums currently. But I don't mind engaging you here. What do you make of the following scripture? In it the Lord commands the saints to "be one". What does He mean by that?

And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. (D&C 38:25-27)

Regards,

Vanhin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

mordorbund,

Hey there. There is a flurry of similar questions on the forums currently. But I don't mind engaging you here. What do you make of the following scripture? In it the Lord commands the saints to "be one". What does He mean by that?

And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. (D&C 38:25-27)

Regards,

Vanhin

I think it's talking about a concern for each other's welfare. Much like Enos or Mosiah's sons, who were not satisfied at their own assurance of forgiveness but then pled and worked on behalf of others so they could enjoy the same blessings.

I don't think that's the same oneness the Godhead have, but that's probably because I don't understand how it applies to them. The most analagous relationship that I can think of is that just as the members of the Godhead have concern for us, so we should have concern for each other and develop that godly trait.

As I was writing this, I saw that this trait is indeed one way that the Godhead is one (I do think that their unity extends to their character). This concern/love is displayed by all 3 members of the Godhead in the scriptures - the Father so loved the world... the Son weeps over Jerusalem as a mother hen... and the Spirit broods upon creation.

Vahnin, do you think the oneness in the scripture you cited has other application with respect to the Godhead?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the reason why I started a fresh thread is because the others seemed to be an attempt to explain the Godhead to people of different faith who have a different foundation from us. I thought it might be nice to have a discussion that starts on the same page, and doesn't require anyone knowing what ousia is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's talking about a concern for each other's welfare. Much like Enos or Mosiah's sons, who were not satisfied at their own assurance of forgiveness but then pled and worked on behalf of others so they could enjoy the same blessings.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I think having that kind of concern for one another is certainly a feature of being one with each other.

I don't think that's the same oneness the Godhead have, but that's probably because I don't understand how it applies to them. The most analagous relationship that I can think of is that just as the members of the Godhead have concern for us, so we should have concern for each other and develop that godly trait.

As I was writing this, I saw that this trait is indeed one way that the Godhead is one (I do think that their unity extends to their character). This concern/love is displayed by all 3 members of the Godhead in the scriptures - the Father so loved the world... the Son weeps over Jerusalem as a mother hen... and the Spirit broods upon creation.

Vahnin, do you think the oneness in the scripture you cited has other application with respect to the Godhead?

I do indeed. The last two sentences in the scripture confirm my belief. Notice the boldface in the quote:

Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

In otherwords, if we are to be as God is, we must be unified in our efforts, together with God. That is what the oneness means to latter-day saints. Clearly it does not mean that we are combined into a single being, but something more profound. Take the preceding verses from the same chapter:

But, verily I say unto you that in time ye shall have no king nor ruler, for I will be your king and watch over you. Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand? (D&C 38:21-22)

What makes the Son one with the Father, is his complete obedience to the will of the Father. Because of His perfect obedience to the Father, Jesus Christ does not say or do anything that is out of harmony with the will of the Father- His will being swallowed up in the will of the Father. So when the Savior speaks, it is as if the Father is speaking. Likewise, if we will act in complete obedience to the commandments and example of the Son, we are also acting in complete obedience to the will of the Father, and what we say and do, is as if the Father had said or done it. To Lord puts it this way:

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. (D&C 1:38)

When the prophet receives direction from God the Son, the lawgiver, and teaches it to the Apostles and they in turn teach it to the other general authorities on down to the Bishops of the wards and further to the families in the world, and if there was perfect obedience at every level, then would we not be considered one with the Father? We would!

Unfortunately we are not there as a whole right now. We are not yet "one". However, individually we can be one with the Lord. The Godhead, already enjoys this perfect unity, and it is what they desire for us. Consider these words of the Savior, as he prayed for his disciples:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:20-24)

What do you think?

Regards,

Vanhin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm aware of the flame war that this thread could potentially start, so I'm asking that only Latter-day Saints post and that they remain respectful of people of all faiths (including their own).

I've seen many threads where a pos(t)er will ask us to explain a Bible verse (usually in Isaiah) and it ends in an argument about whether the Trinity is bogus and how presumptuous we are to think we can become gods. I have seen in these threads that not every Christian believes the same thing (thanks PrisonChaplain for your many useful posts), and it got me wondering if we do too.

(This is the last part of the intro I promise). I've observed that there are 7 statements that most Christians (including LDS) believe regarding God (I know there's some who don't believe 4-6, but we do so I'm keeping them :)):

  • The Father is God
  • The Son is God
  • The Holy Ghost is God
  • The Father is not the Son; nor is the Son the Father
  • The Son is not the Holy Ghost; nor is the Holy Ghost the Son
  • The Holy Ghost is not the Father; nor is the Father the Holy Ghost
  • God is one
How do you reconcile the 7th statement with the other 6? What does that mean to you? What does your answer mean for God's children?

Hello, mordorbund;

I am LDS and am not here to "flame," so I hope this qualifies me to address your quetion. :)

The best scriptures that have answered this question for me are John 17 and 3 Nephi 19:23.

As you've already heard, the Godhead is one in purpose and intent. I take this to a possibly cosmic level. I believe they perceive everyone's thoughts and emotions (including each other's) and so are one in thought as well. I really believe that because they are infinite and eternal, we cannot truly understand how they operate as "one." I think it is a process that is beyond our capacity to think or know.

I believe that we can become "one" with them, given the scriptural passages I just gave you. Also, that we can become "joint-heirs" with Christ in receiving exhaltation~ Romans 8:17. I believe this means just what it says, that because of the atonement we can receive all that Christ has. I believe that it actually puts limits on what Christ has done for us and undermines the power of the atonement to save and redeem us to say that we cannot become as He and Heavenly Father are; namely gods (and goddesses for those who are female). I believe they have no problem with giving us the same power and authority as they have. But, please don't misunderstand, I believe that I will always worship them as God's over me.....

Anyway, these are just my deductions. Best of wishes on your thread.

Dove

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I'll post the obvious as well. Yes, they're one in purpose, but what does that mean to you? What is that purpose? Is that the only qualification for being in the Godhead? etc

I believe it all hinges on accepting Christ as the Savior or Messiah.

In order to obtain perfection and exaltation one must accept Christ. Not just the person or Being Christ, but the philosophy and "eternal plan" that is Christ. "Christ" represents a mortal probation period where One who is chosen is sent to redeem children from sin, and allow them the ability to become pefected and exalted.

The Father chose this method.

The Son chose this method.

They are One.

All who choose this method are One. You cannot be saved unless you choose this method and rely on Christ, not only for your own personal redemption, but more importantly, for the redemption of your children once you gain eternal life.

Some spirits do this in the First Estate, or pre-mortal realm. Those are the ones who are the elect, who are sent to be prophets and apostles, also those who only need to obtain a body... like those who do not live to the age of accountability, or those who do, but never become accountable for their choices because of physical limitations.

Some spirits do this during their second estate, which is where we are now.

Some do it after this life, but before the last resurrection.

All are One if they chose this way of salvation for themselves and for their children.

Christ is the tie that binds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Christ is the tie that binds.

Though I don't belive in "multiple christs" as you suggest in some of your language in the above post, I do agree with the above statement.

Jesus Christ, and His At-one-ment is what makes it possible for us to be one with God in the end.

Regards,

Vanhin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm aware of the flame war that this thread could potentially start, so I'm asking that only Latter-day Saints post and that they remain respectful of people of all faiths (including their own).

I've seen many threads where a pos(t)er will ask us to explain a Bible verse (usually in Isaiah) and it ends in an argument about whether the Trinity is bogus and how presumptuous we are to think we can become gods. I have seen in these threads that not every Christian believes the same thing (thanks PrisonChaplain for your many useful posts), and it got me wondering if we do too.

(This is the last part of the intro I promise). I've observed that there are 7 statements that most Christians (including LDS) believe regarding God (I know there's some who don't believe 4-6, but we do so I'm keeping them :)):

  • The Father is God
  • The Son is God
  • The Holy Ghost is God
  • The Father is not the Son; nor is the Son the Father
  • The Son is not the Holy Ghost; nor is the Holy Ghost the Son
  • The Holy Ghost is not the Father; nor is the Father the Holy Ghost
  • God is one

How do you reconcile the 7th statement with the other 6? What does that mean to you? What does your answer mean for God's children?

Adding to others already posted, to simplify the last statement, GOD is one in purpose with the other two counselors of the GODHEAD (Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost). We are one in the same purpose when we surrender our ‘will’ unto HIM. It is more like a collective of a family, having the same purpose in bringing about the glory and eternal life of HIS children.

Last, what is quite unique with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the church does not ask you to take our word or even the scriptures as the final answer to what is given. The church will ask, to go forth upon your knees, in humility and with sincerity, seeking the answer from GOD directly. GOD respects and show great mercy to HIS children who seek truth with a real intent. The answer given, will be thus, confirmed by the Holy Ghost. This way, your final answer is given.

May GOD direct you in finding your answers in life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is this oneness what makes them the Godhead, or is there something else?

What makes the Son one with the Father, is his complete obedience to the will of the Father. Because of His perfect obedience to the Father, Jesus Christ does not say or do anything that is out of harmony with the will of the Father- His will being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

So when we give our will over to God, to we then partake of the Godhead? I tend to think so, but I'm not entirely sure what that means.

So when the Savior speaks, it is as if the Father is speaking. Likewise, if we will act in complete obedience to the commandments and example of the Son, we are also acting in complete obedience to the will of the Father, and what we say and do, is as if the Father had said or done it. To Lord puts it this way:

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. (D&C 1:38)

When the prophet receives direction from God the Son, the lawgiver, and teaches it to the Apostles and they in turn teach it to the other general authorities on down to the Bishops of the wards and further to the families in the world, and if there was perfect obedience at every level, then would we not be considered one with the Father? We would!

But that doesn't mean that we would be one of the Godhead, just one with the Godhead (I'm not complaining about that by any means). So there's another property of Godhead that we haven't touched on yet that makes a person a member.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you've already heard, the Godhead is one in purpose and intent. I take this to a possibly cosmic level. I believe they perceive everyone's thoughts and emotions (including each other's) and so are one in thought as well. I really believe that because they are infinite and eternal, we cannot truly understand how they operate as "one."

So one step we can take to partake of the Godhead is to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 2:16

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

And your comment on their knowledge of everyone's thoughts makes it sound like omniscience is a pre-requisite to being in the Godhead.

Alma 7:13

Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

But it sounds like experiential omniscience is not a requirement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Use this statement found in 3rd Nephi chapter 19; what did the Lord ask the twelve to seek first? THE HOLY GHOST. This should be the foremost the first desire before anything else. Mastering the technique of listening and knowing the promptings, aided the twelve in teaching both the Lamanites and the Nephites.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is this oneness what makes them the Godhead, or is there something else?

So when we give our will over to God, to we then partake of the Godhead? I tend to think so, but I'm not entirely sure what that means.

But that doesn't mean that we would be one of the Godhead, just one with the Godhead (I'm not complaining about that by any means). So there's another property of Godhead that we haven't touched on yet that makes a person a member.

That is ultimately what exaltation is all about. In order to be exalted we must obey the will of the Father, by receiving the ordinances of salvation and being true to the associated covenants, including being sealed in the temple to our spouse. If covenants are kept, we will be made one with the Father, like the Son is.

Of the new and everlasting covenant. It is given to us to "...multiply and replenish the earth, according to [God's] commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by [the] Father before the foundation of the world, and for [our] exaltation in the eternal worlds, that [we] may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of [the] Father continued, that he may be glorified." (see D&C 132:63)

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D&C 132:20)

Regards,

Vanhin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So one step we can take to partake of the Godhead is to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 2:16

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

And your comment on their knowledge of everyone's thoughts makes it sound like omniscience is a pre-requisite to being in the Godhead.

Alma 7:13

Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

But it sounds like experiential omniscience is not a requirement.

Yes, I think "receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost" is about the only option available to most of us to partake of the Godhead. I say this because I don't hear of the average member (like me) seeing angels or receiving the "second witness" of Jesus Christ. I believe this is mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants, where it is outlined about one's calling and elections being "made sure."

Key elements I've been learning about to become closer to the Holy Ghost are the purification and sanctification processes. I love the scriptures in the Book of Mormon, Helaman 3:33-36, which talk about the humble members of the church being persecuted by those who "professed to belong to the church of God." Here is the verse that outlines their purification and sanctification proces;

35 Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God.

It's a beautiful passage to me. I acknowledge that while this process requires that we "yield our hearts unto God," it so often seems to come with suffering to fulfill that.

I also think of the people of King Benjamin, who "have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things."

In the chapter preceding King Benjamin's address, it is recorded that they were diligent in their obedience to God. It seems that strict obedience to His will for us is a requisite to becoming one with Him.....

I agree with you that perhaps experiential omniscience is not a requirement to be a member of the Godhood. I feel that we would have to be pretty darn close to qualifying to be a member of the Godhood in order to have experiential omniscience, though. Moses was allowed to see the whole of our world, as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price.

What excites me is that woman are not excluded from this process. I know, I know, we are considered "equal" with our brethren; but, it's nice to hear of the rare recorded event about women being allowed the "gift of prophecy" themselves...

Thanks :)

Dove

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I think "receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost" is about the only option available to most of us to partake of the Godhead.

I like what Vahnin posted earlier:

That is ultimately what exaltation is all about. In order to be exalted we must obey the will of the Father, by receiving the ordinances of salvation and being true to the associated covenants, including being sealed in the temple to our spouse. If covenants are kept, we will be made one with the Father, like the Son is.

For me it brings to new light the phrase "they will know, even as they are known". We will enjoy the same mind that the Father and the Son have. We will have the same concern for others that they (the Godhead) have for us.

I agree with you that perhaps experiential omniscience is not a requirement to be a member of the Godhood. I feel that we would have to be pretty darn close to qualifying to be a member of the Godhood in order to have experiential omniscience, though. Moses was allowed to see the whole of our world, as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price.

What I mean by experiential omniscience is the difference between the Spirit telling you "you really shouldn't do this thing that damages your spirit" because he has knowledge of such, versus the Son testifying to you "It was really hellish when I felt the consequences of the action you're contemplating." It also means that the Son is especially able to judge us because we can never tell him "you don't know what it's like to be me." He proxy-walked in each of our shoes.

I think we've covered the aspect of oneness that we can attain to if we are faithful (joining the cause, mingling in the assembly of the gods). I'm convinced there has to be an exclusive aspect of the Godhead to limit it to just the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Do you think there is more to the exclusive aspect than just the legalese that the Godhead is comprised of these three and no more? Or is there an attribute/qualification that makes them such?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

God the Father is married. He is the Man of Holiness, is He not?

Regards,

Vanhin

So, where did His wife come from?

Did she exist forever with Him?

Or, is she one of His creations?

If they existed forever together, when did they get married?

If she is His creation (because He couldn't have children without a wife) how can that be explained?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share