Is this blasphemous?


PV2004
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So I had a hour or so drive the other day and I was thinking about things and I came across the thought that God can't do everything. We all think he can because he is all powerful but I realized he can't. My reasoning is that God is bound by laws just like we are. A perfect example of this is the Law of Justice. We learn from the study of the atonement that mercy shall not rob justice and that even God himself can't break this law. Therefore an atonement had to be made, so Christ satisfied the law of justice so that mercy could be satisfied as well. Therefore we can conclude that God himself could not break the law of justice and therefore he is bound by laws as well, which means there are things had can't do. In addition, there must be other laws as well (ie laws of physics and science) Please correct me if my thinking is not correct here. I am open to being wrong.

When I think about it though, it only strengthens my testimony that we are as God was and God is as we can become and that hed is our Heavenly Father.

In addition I started to think about an experience a friend had told me. He said his mom was suffered from a tumor in her head (if I remember correctly) and that it was very tough time for his family. During the examination process and trying to determine the seriousness of the situation and whether it was cancerous or not, his family had a family fast that his mom would heal and things go well. Well some time after the fast his mom went into the doctors to get another scan of the tumor. When the scan results came back the doctor said the tumor was completely gone. The doctor wasn't ever sure if he had diagnosed the tumor correctly and had two or three other doctors looks at the scans to be sure (original and the new one) and they all concured that she did in fact have a tumor and that it was now gone. This was a mircle in their lives. As I thought about this and the nature of our Heavenly Father, I thought again that Heavely Father is bound by laws and the limiations of our bodies.. I personal don't know how the tumor disappared, but I can only guess that our Heavely Father knew how to manipulate (for a lack of a better word) the body to remove the tumor itself. He knew the right chemicals the body needed to release, the cells that would remove the tumor, and all the other fuctions of the body that needed to work together in order to remove the tumor. In all honesty the tumor could have disappeared and I conceed that God's understanding is way beyond mine, however I also believe there are aspects of the human body we don't understand that God only understands and I personally believe the body (with the help of our Heavely Father) removed the tumor itself. This in no way is intened to downplay the role of Heavenly Father in this miracle. If it wasn't for Him, she would not have been blessed. From my friend's story I realized and began to believe there is a cure for cancer. Our Heavely father knows what it is without a doubt. Then I realized the question regarding the cure for cancern is not when will we find the cure for cancern, but when will God grant us the knowledge of the cure for cancer.

One last note. When I say God is bound by laws, please remember he is bound by his knowledge of the laws, which is perfect and far greater than ours. Some may say the human body if not capable of curing itself from cancer. To them I say that is according to our limited knowledge of the body. God knows the things the human body is capable of and sometimes he just needs to assist in helping it to do what it is capable of, because we don't know how to.

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One last note. When I say God is bound by laws, please remember he is bound by his knowledge of the laws, which is perfect and far greater than ours. Some may say the human body if not capable of curing itself from cancer. To them I say that is according to our limited knowledge of the body. God knows the things the human body is capable of and sometimes he just needs to assist in helping it to do what it is capable of, because we don't know how to.

I heard it once said that a miracle is something we cannot explain only because we do not understand the law(s) on which it is predicated. I believe that God understands all laws, and can effect what are to us, miracles. I believe it was Elder Dallin H. Oaks that I heard explain a miracle in this way once, in a CES broadcast. He went on to say that computers and cell phones were miracles to him, because he didn't understand the laws upon which they were predicated. It made sense to me.

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Very good comments you two. And, very good topic.

PV2004, I learned that quite some time ago. The way I see it is God CAN do anything in the physical world. He speaks and elements obey Him. Yet, He is glorified and perfected, and His work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. So, everything He does, even if it doesn't seem like it to us, is for the benefit of man.

What power and control He has over spiritual elements has not been revealed. What I do know is that He has all knowledge needed and required to redeem man. He will not learn anything new about how man can be saved. He is doing it the only way it can be done.

Those are my thoughts.

Thanks for the topic.

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One of those laws must be that glory comes from accomplishing certain things, that it doesn't come from just the potential to do something. This is why God's glory comes from "...to bring to pass...". If it wasn't so, we wouldn't be here, we would be just a thought or a plan. From that we can be sure that faith alone does nothing.

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So I had a hour or so drive the other day and I was thinking about things and I came across the thought that God can't do everything. We all think he can because he is all powerful but I realized he can't. My reasoning is that God is bound by laws just like we are. A perfect example of this is the Law of Justice. We learn from the study of the atonement that mercy shall not rob justice and that even God himself can't break this law. Therefore an atonement had to be made, so Christ satisfied the law of justice so that mercy could be satisfied as well. Therefore we can conclude that God himself could not break the law of justice and therefore he is bound by laws as well, which means there are things had can't do. In addition, there must be other laws as well (ie laws of physics and science) Please correct me if my thinking is not correct here. I am open to being wrong.

When I think about it though, it only strengthens my testimony that we are as God was and God is as we can become and that hed is our Heavenly Father.

In addition I started to think about an experience a friend had told me. He said his mom was suffered from a tumor in her head (if I remember correctly) and that it was very tough time for his family. During the examination process and trying to determine the seriousness of the situation and whether it was cancerous or not, his family had a family fast that his mom would heal and things go well. Well some time after the fast his mom went into the doctors to get another scan of the tumor. When the scan results came back the doctor said the tumor was completely gone. The doctor wasn't ever sure if he had diagnosed the tumor correctly and had two or three other doctors looks at the scans to be sure (original and the new one) and they all concured that she did in fact have a tumor and that it was now gone. This was a mircle in their lives. As I thought about this and the nature of our Heavenly Father, I thought again that Heavely Father is bound by laws and the limiations of our bodies.. I personal don't know how the tumor disappared, but I can only guess that our Heavely Father knew how to manipulate (for a lack of a better word) the body to remove the tumor itself. He knew the right chemicals the body needed to release, the cells that would remove the tumor, and all the other fuctions of the body that needed to work together in order to remove the tumor. In all honesty the tumor could have disappeared and I conceed that God's understanding is way beyond mine, however I also believe there are aspects of the human body we don't understand that God only understands and I personally believe the body (with the help of our Heavely Father) removed the tumor itself. This in no way is intened to downplay the role of Heavenly Father in this miracle. If it wasn't for Him, she would not have been blessed. From my friend's story I realized and began to believe there is a cure for cancer. Our Heavely father knows what it is without a doubt. Then I realized the question regarding the cure for cancern is not when will we find the cure for cancern, but when will God grant us the knowledge of the cure for cancer.

One last note. When I say God is bound by laws, please remember he is bound by his knowledge of the laws, which is perfect and far greater than ours. Some may say the human body if not capable of curing itself from cancer. To them I say that is according to our limited knowledge of the body. God knows the things the human body is capable of and sometimes he just needs to assist in helping it to do what it is capable of, because we don't know how to.

I believe he can do all things (I would like to note that can do and will do are two completely different things). The catch is, what is "all"?

-If you have a set say [1,2,5,9] then all for the set would = 1,2,5, and 9.

I believe its the somewhat the same for this part of our existence, that its more like a set that is larger than we can comprehend, and that we do not know all the points in the set. - in my own rambling opinion.

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Anything that can be done, God can do it.

Regards,

Vanhin

Indeed. I've always read all-powerful as the power to do all things. The caveat being all things that are possible, the impossible doesn't magically become possible by virtue of possessing all-power as by definition they are not possible (though the list of the impossible for us is much greater than the list for God).

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So I had a hour or so drive the other day and I was thinking about things and I came across the thought that God can't do everything. We all think he can because he is all powerful but I realized he can't. My reasoning is that God is bound by laws just like we are. A perfect example of this is the Law of Justice. We learn from the study of the atonement that mercy shall not rob justice and that even God himself can't break this law. Therefore an atonement had to be made, so Christ satisfied the law of justice so that mercy could be satisfied as well. Therefore we can conclude that God himself could not break the law of justice and therefore he is bound by laws as well, which means there are things had can't do. In addition, there must be other laws as well (ie laws of physics and science) Please correct me if my thinking is not correct here. I am open to being wrong.

When I think about it though, it only strengthens my testimony that we are as God was and God is as we can become and that hed is our Heavenly Father.

In addition I started to think about an experience a friend had told me. He said his mom was suffered from a tumor in her head (if I remember correctly) and that it was very tough time for his family. During the examination process and trying to determine the seriousness of the situation and whether it was cancerous or not, his family had a family fast that his mom would heal and things go well. Well some time after the fast his mom went into the doctors to get another scan of the tumor. When the scan results came back the doctor said the tumor was completely gone. The doctor wasn't ever sure if he had diagnosed the tumor correctly and had two or three other doctors looks at the scans to be sure (original and the new one) and they all concured that she did in fact have a tumor and that it was now gone. This was a mircle in their lives. As I thought about this and the nature of our Heavenly Father, I thought again that Heavely Father is bound by laws and the limiations of our bodies.. I personal don't know how the tumor disappared, but I can only guess that our Heavely Father knew how to manipulate (for a lack of a better word) the body to remove the tumor itself. He knew the right chemicals the body needed to release, the cells that would remove the tumor, and all the other fuctions of the body that needed to work together in order to remove the tumor. In all honesty the tumor could have disappeared and I conceed that God's understanding is way beyond mine, however I also believe there are aspects of the human body we don't understand that God only understands and I personally believe the body (with the help of our Heavely Father) removed the tumor itself. This in no way is intened to downplay the role of Heavenly Father in this miracle. If it wasn't for Him, she would not have been blessed. From my friend's story I realized and began to believe there is a cure for cancer. Our Heavely father knows what it is without a doubt. Then I realized the question regarding the cure for cancern is not when will we find the cure for cancern, but when will God grant us the knowledge of the cure for cancer.

One last note. When I say God is bound by laws, please remember he is bound by his knowledge of the laws, which is perfect and far greater than ours. Some may say the human body if not capable of curing itself from cancer. To them I say that is according to our limited knowledge of the body. God knows the things the human body is capable of and sometimes he just needs to assist in helping it to do what it is capable of, because we don't know how to.

I believe you are in harmony about the laws and agency that GOD must allow from own viewpoint.

Was your friend's mother given a priesthood blessing prior to the fasting or as you stated, they fasted over this medical alignment?

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Indeed. I've always read all-powerful as the power to do all things. The caveat being all things that are possible, the impossible doesn't magically become possible by virtue of possessing all-power as by definition they are not possible (though the list of the impossible for us is much greater than the list for God).

In another thread (maybe another forum) someone asked the age old question, "Is God so powerful that He can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?" To that question, my brother (Finrock) answered, "If such a rock can be created, then yes."

Vanhin

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It is not my purpose to discourage anyone or to encourage anyone incorrectly. However, often when we do not understand something we think that G-d was the cause or the reason. For myself I tend to shy away from the G-d does whatever we do not understand attitude. At the same time ->I do believe that G-d has a hand in all things and that all things will turn out for the good.

The main reason that I am posting is to simply state that if we do not understand a thing we cannot say with clarity how it is or why it occurred. The only thing we can state is that we do not understand. Often the L-rd will not make every detail known but will let us know through his spirit that he has given a blessing because of our fasting and prayers.

What I do not think we need to conclude is that we can alter the will of the L-rd by our fasting and prayers – but that some blessings require fasting and prayers but that the will of the L-rd will always roll forth and that our first intension in fasting and prayer is to become mindful and acceptable of divine will.

The Traveler

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So I had a hour or so drive the other day and I was thinking about things and I came across the thought that God can't do everything. We all think he can because he is all powerful but I realized he can't. My reasoning is that God is bound by laws just like we are. A perfect example of this is the Law of Justice. We learn from the study of the atonement that mercy shall not rob justice and that even God himself can't break this law.

I believe God can do all things. I see this as being an extension of the argument over the culpability of the Savior. Could he sin? Yes, but then he would immediately lose his ability to Save. Did he sin? Of course not. Similarly can God ignore justice? Yes, but then he would "cease to be God."Does God ignore justice? Of course not. As soon as God breaks a god-law, we can no longer have faith in him. But this won't happen because of his nature (Jesus doesn't sin because of his same nature).

Regarding your statement on physical laws, I believe God is above them. I don't think God physically resides in this universe. I don't think he is subject to the laws of this universe.

And regarding miracles, I think there are indeed some miracles that are the use of unknown laws (clearly the grape applies laws that turns water to wine, but Jesus may have applied more laws to speed it along). But I also think there are some miracles that are nothing short of divine intervention. I tend to subscribe to CS Lewis' description of miracles, that a true miracle has a super-natural cause and is then carried to its natural conclusion.

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If it is said that God cannot do something, it is not always meant literally. For God's plan to work, there are things that he must do and things he cannot do. Sure, he could do them if he wanted, but he can't if His plan is to work.

There is one thing He cannot do which is realize that something has been done until it actually has been done. Now, before anyone throws that out as being a 'cute' statement or some odd exception to the rule or an attempt to just find some odd thing that He couldn't do, I think that statement is important for the basis of our religion and why we are here.

If Gods work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, what that means is that there is no glory in potential. The act has to be completed to mean something, it can't just be a thought or intention.

This applies to our life in knowing that we actually have to go through the motion to have our intentions be meaningful. Even if I believe in the gospel and have faith in Jesus, I still have to keep the commandments. God's power means little without Him actually "bringing to pass" his intentions. We know this is true also because we believe in a God with passions. If He felt everything before it was completed then He would never weep or be joyful because He would have already felt and received all the feelings associated with future acts before they were completed. So, we know that He could not receive the glory for a future act, He cannot receive the glory for a particular act (at least in full) until it is actually accomplished.

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Snoozer, because I believe that God exists outside this universe, I also believe that he exists outside of time.

Let's play god for a moment. Let's say that you are god of the stick people (these are the stick people drawn on a piece of paper that are living. We will even grant them free will so there may be some "suprises"). Now, these stick people exist as animations, a series of still frames that you can fully see. You know the end from the beginning. Also, due to your god status, if you change something in one frame, all subsequent frames are updated. Finally, let's say that it is your work and glory to have the stick people finish an obstacle course with two walls. Oh, and we'll also say that in the rules of godhood over stick people you lose your glory if you intervene the same way twice, and you can't tear down any walls (this covers the "sure, god can, but he binds himself to his own laws" argument).

So you're looking at all the still frames, and you see where a stick person comes to the first wall. In fact, in subsequent ones, you see that there's a pile up at this wall. So you go back to an earlier frame and you draw a doorway in the wall. Now you move forward to where the first stick person comes to the wall (that now has a doorway) and you see it is followed by that person walking right through it. You check the later ones and you see there never was a pile up because everyone is moving through this wall smoothly.

Now you look at the still frame where a stick person comes to the second wall. He arrives there with a friend. You think for a minute and draw a rope going over the wall (in an earlier frame). For the stick people, this rope has always been observably there. Now when you look at subsequent frames, you see that the first person climbs the rope and makes it over. The second one decides this wall is too tough and sits down and gives up.

Do you see what just happened? Because you're working outside of the stick people's time, you can freely move backwards and forwards. Also, you are free to optimize it as much as possible (if the second person gave up because he didn't have strong enough muscles, maybe you draw smaller walls for him to climb to build his muscles). All this happens outside the stick people's frame of reference. It's not until you are finally finished and the animation is run that the stick people actually experience anything. But in this scenario, you can actually say you achieved your work and glory before any animation is run. You know how many stick people will complete the course and if you have a boss, you could be promoted based on the still frames alone.

Now when (according to stick people time) do you weep that some of them didn't complete the course? All the time. There is never a stick person time when you weren't weeping, and there was never a time when you weren't celebrating those that did complete it. When (according to stick person time) did a stick person observe you weeping? When you interacted directly with one of them and they recorded it.

Now this is just an illustration and not meant to describe the reality of how God works. I just want to show that there are conceivable ways for God to work outside of time, and so we should be careful with assumptions about God taking up residence in our natural laws.

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Hey mordorbund,

I actually really thought your analogy was quite interesting. Thanks for typing all that out.

In holy places we make covenants that are in effect through "all generations of time" and "and throughout all eternity", as if eternity and the generations of time were not the same thing. What you wrote made me think of the 130th section of the Doctrine and Covenants about the residence of God:

But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. (D&C 130:7)

We are part of all eternity, though for a moment we reside in a temporal sphere. It is the change and decay of this world that gives me the perception of time, and though I feel like I did when I was a child inside, I only feel older because of frailty of the flesh.

We are gnolaum, and I thank God that He has placed me in this sphere of time to work out my salvation with fear and trembling before him, and to obtain a body that I may have a fullness of Joy. Though I do not feel older in my heart, I feel enlarged in spirit from the experience of mortality.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

Regards,

Vanhin

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Interesting concept of God living outside of the universe. Is there any quote in the scripture or statement made by any prophet? Just curious.

We can start with Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. For me that means the universe. And we can continue to The Book of Mormon -

And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.

For me that means that God is above nature, and that includes the universe. And finally we'll move on to President Hinckley as quoted in the Sep 2007 Ensign -

Do I know [the gospel is] true? I want everybody in this hall tonight to realize that you each heard me say to you that I know that God our Eternal Father lives. I know that He lives. I know that He is a being of substance. I know that He is the great God of the universe. I know, however, that I am His child and that you are His children and that He will listen to and hear and answer our prayers.

So God is the God of the universe, and I take that to mean that he has complete control of the universe.

Now, I guess it could be possible for God to create the universe and take up residence there (we know the Savior did just that on a temporary basis). But I fail to see how he can do this without truly existing outside the universe. In other words, let's say God set up a throne in the middle of the sun. Let's even say that we can point a telescope to the sun and consantly see God sitting in his throne. So it looks very much like he lives in the sun. But then on earth, the prophet steps out of the temple and announces that he has just spoken with God face to face! How did he do it?

  • He didn't. God must obey physical laws that require him to be in one place at a time.
  • God applied physical laws that we are unaware of (maybe some special quantum mechanics on the large scale).
  • God is not bound by physical laws and performed a supernatural (meaning above nature or physics) miracle.
  • Great are the mysteries of God!!!

  • This shows the difficulty of confining God to the limits of his creation.
  • The problem I have with this is that it says God is just smarter than I am. So if I learn the right physical laws, I can bypass the whole obedience thing and build my own tower to omnipotence.
  • This is what I'm arguing. But what it's also saying is that what is observable by the telescope and the prophet are really just shadows of God. Imagine in my stick people example that God was a double cone with the points touching (something like an hourglass). When God interacts directly with a stick person, he passes through the piece of paper and looks like either a cirlce, ellipse, or a hyperbola. If he lay completely on his side, he could be two hyperbolas in two different places! Saying God is any of these shapes is not completely accurate, but understandable given the limitations. In the case of the two hyperbolas, God is not a hyperbola in one place and a hyperbola in another place. God is a double cone outside the stick people universe, and the two hyperbolas are only shadows of the real. (For more on this paradigm, you can brush up on Flatland by Edwin Abbott)
  • This is true (and may even be the truest of the four), but doesn't help us explain what happened.
Are you familiar with any scriptures/prophets stating that God resides within the universe?
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We can start with Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. For me that means the universe.

That's not what the scriptures say. God defines what "heaven and earth" are for us so we'll have no question. Joseph Smith taught that God started with physical element of some kind, because it cannot be created from nothing, nor can it be destroyed.

Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

All you have to do now is learn what firmament is.

10 And God called the dry land Earth;

All you have to do now is learn what dry land is.

Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the firmament and the dry land.

The scriptures never claim God created the universe from nothing, but that he started with element to create this earth:

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Here, before God spoke a single word of creation, He moved upon the face of the waters, or the face of the deep. With water already present, there are only 2 things left to "create:" firmament and dry land.

This is supported in the Pearl of Great Price:

Moses 1:

40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.

Moses 2:

1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.

See also Abraham 3:5-7.

This also sheds light on how the "Creator" is called the beginning and end.

I'm not saying He's not the God of the universe, I'm saying He has only told us about the creation of THIS earth.

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I'm not saying He's not the God of the universe, I'm saying He has only told us about the creation of THIS earth.

I don't disagree by any means. But as far as this universe is observed, every planet follows the same physical laws as this earth. So when it comes to the miraculous, it comes down to the four statements I listed earlier. Either God (or his representatives) is a fraud, or his omnipotence is not so omni, or he does actually have all power because he is outside this system, or there is some other unknown (to me) explanation. Making God a local God over this specific earth (or even the Milky Way Galaxy) still leaves us with the four statements and sounds like the second.
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Agreed. I believe God has all power where the physical is concerned. He speaks and physical element obeys. This allows His the ability to do anything in the physical world. As many have stated, just because He can do a thing, doesn't necessarily mean He should, or He would.

I wanted to mention that the scriptures do not inform us how the universe was created, but how this earth was created. This tells me the focus is on man, and the worlds that man needs to be redeemed. God creates them one at a time as they are needed to redeem His children.

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I don't disagree by any means. But as far as this universe is observed, every planet follows the same physical laws as this earth. So when it comes to the miraculous, it comes down to the four statements I listed earlier. Either God (or his representatives) is a fraud, or his omnipotence is not so omni, or he does actually have all power because he is outside this system, or there is some other unknown (to me) explanation. Making God a local God over this specific earth (or even the Milky Way Galaxy) still leaves us with the four statements and sounds like the second.

Good morning Mordorbund. Thanks for the answer. Though, we may not agree on the same interpretations that are written, it reveals that members are thinking beyond the ‘black box’ and allow the Spirit to work greater miracles.

Could GOD live in the Universe and still be Omnipresent? I believe HE could. It is done through the world HE resides on is nothing more than an Urim Thummim. I believe you already know the operating principle of a UT. One can view the past and present. If I was GOD, I could sit on my throne; still view my creation from where I sit. It is true; HE has messenger, watchers, and vast army of intelligence that honor this great MAN. They even gravitate to HIM and what to be next to HIM. Yet, HE lives under the laws of the Celestial realm and not physical as us. HE is not bound by any physical law but uses it to do HIS bidding. Even Christ walking across the water is a witness of one overriding our physical laws. There means of travel, communications, and living, is bound by this celestial law. Even our physical light, could not be in HIS present. Considering in our own galaxy, there is over more worlds (stars) than the sand of the seashore. To me, that is a lot worlds to watch over.

It is true as you stated, this is a telestial world and we live in a telestial belt of worlds, apart from those worlds considered to be terrestrial or even celestial in measure. I believe, the closer we get to the core of Milky Way; we see the colorization and size of the stars change. Close to the core, there is debris field that maybe considered spent worlds, element to fashion new worlds. Between this field and what the Astrophysics called a Black Hole (I don’t see it as that now), are yet more stars (seen by our latest X-Ray space imagery). This stars who illumination and size, comparably, would shun our telestial Sun. Beyond that, we see, what I term, dark energy (Black Hole) of a measure of two million light years across. Even with our latest X-Ray imagery, one could faintly see a massive bright light. When GOD gives us technology to invent to see beyond the cosmic range spectrum, this paradigm will be rewritten. Then we could now ask who resides at the very core?

If anyone in our day would know it all among the living prophets, Joseph Smith would be the one I would rely on for a depiction of the universe. Only disagreement I have with his perception, based on his observation location, Joseph believes the universe is infinite. In my opinion, I don’t believe it is. There is a boundary at the very edge of this universe. Even Abraham and Moses did not see the whole universe but only the creation that belong to our FATHER. The difference now, they were only shown our own galaxy and its creation, not the universe. Seeing Abraham and Moses were not Astro-physicists, I can understand their reasoning in trying to describe what was being shown. It resembles the same issue with John in describing our day technology, witnessed in his vision. The best part, Abraham described what was seen at the core of our own galaxy and wrote it down (see the papyrus). I believe, it was Abraham who taught the Egyptians in his day of what was taught to him.

Question is, if the Universe has boundaries, could GOD still be outside of such? I don’t believe it is so. I believe, we are part of the collective of GOD, which GOD is part of a bigger collective them HIMSELF.

Thanks again for your warm response...

Edited by Hemidakota
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Good morning Change...I was not referring to time but his statement of GOD being outside of the physical Universe. Here is why I didn’t mentioned space and time. In respect to your post, in the Doctrine and Covenants to Joseph Smith, in the 1800s, prior to the support for understanding of the theory of relativity is remarkably seen in the D&C section 3. Space and time equivalence in a celestial sphere is indicated in verse 2, "For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round." To me, this verse implies that the shortest distance between two points in a 4-D realm is a curved path. Notable this is also the basic concept of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

The concept of physical time, telestial world, Joseph was familiar with Alma's teaching that "time only is measured unto men" (see Alma 40:8). In D&C 88:110, Joseph writes, "…there shall be time no longer…" Turning to D&C 84:110 it reads, "…time is no longer", which refer to the end of man's mortal probation prior to the end of the Millennium. It may have further implication about the vanishing of time as suggested by Einstein's Special Theory, when travel velocities reach the speed of light. There is another similar D&C statements (See D&C 88:109-10, 84:100) may suggest the vanquish of physical space and time.

Change, using the full possibilities of the theory of relativity involving infinite space-time contractions in a 4-D space is clearly manifested in D&C 130:7, where Joseph Smith writes, angels "reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord." Speaking of God, it reads, "He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him" (D&C 88:41).

Obviously, we clearly see GOD is not limited by physical time or physical space as telestial man limitation. Using some of known theories today, able to see the past, present and future, is a science phenomenon when traveling approaching and exceeding the speed of physical light. Again, this postulation is for a celestial glory description only and not to be construe of anything resembling telestial based.

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Good morning Mordorbund. Thanks for the answer. Though, we may not agree on the same interpretations that are written, it reveals that members are thinking beyond the ‘black box’ and allow the Spirit to work greater miracles.

Oh you flatterer :wub:

Could GOD live in the Universe and still be Omnipresent? I believe HE could. It is done through the world HE resides on is nothing more than an Urim Thummim. I believe you already know the operating principle of a UT. One can view the past and present.

Since you bring up the Urim and Thummim, I'll go ahead and mention a thought or two on it.

The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

The difference between how the two of us read this I think comes down to location. Sounds like you think it's somewhere in this galaxy (the center?), whereas I think it's outside the universe (in the Cosmos, as Sagan calls it).

This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

I think we agree in applying the principle of celestialized earth to the place where God resides. Just as UT earth is able to view all things pertaining to lower kingdoms, so God's residence enables him to view all things pertaining to lower kingdoms (including this earth).

Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

You state that God is part of a bigger collective, so if he is viewing higher kingdoms (higher than his, not ours), he is probably using his own personal UT. So if God resides in the middle of the Milky Way, where are these higher kingdoms? Are they in the middle of the universe, or outside the universe? Or are there higher orders of galaxies? For me, this personal UT is what we will use to view God's true residence because his residence will always be a greater kingdom than our own. I will explain with one more verse.

And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

This verse, in connection with an image in Carl Sagan's Cosmos, gave me an understanding of God's kingdom in relation to our current kingdoms in relation to any future kingdoms we have. The image was a representation of a man passing between universes as part of a larger cosmos. If you haven't seen the image, you can probably relate better to the end scene of Men in Black. SPOILER ALERT! At the end of the movie, you find out that the sought-after galaxy was located right here on earth inside a cat's pendant. As the camera zooms out, you find out that our own universe is just one of many marbles in a larger cosmos.

God looks around the kingdom where he resides and finds that there is space there (of course there's space there, it's a kingdom). So he goes down and organizes the kingdoms he finds in that space (of course there's kingdoms there, it's a space). In time, one of these kingdoms is celestialized (this earth) and one of the inhabitants looks! and there is space there (of course there's space there, it's a kingdom). That inhabitant can then organize the kingdoms within that space (of course there's kingdom's there, it's a space). Because the inhabitants earth is celestialized, that person can view the lower kingdoms in the space. And because the inhabitant has a personal UT, that person can peek into God's kingdom.

If I was GOD, I could sit on my throne; still view my creation from where I sit. It is true; HE has messenger, watchers, and vast army of intelligence that honor this great MAN. They even gravitate to HIM and what to be next to HIM. Yet, HE lives under the laws of the Celestial realm and not physical as us. HE is not bound by any physical law but uses it to do HIS bidding. Even Christ walking across the water is a witness of one overriding our physical laws. There means of travel, communications, and living, is bound by this celestial law.

But this goes back to what I was saying. There are two separate laws coming into play here. We can say that
  • These celestial laws are still laws of our universe, but we haven't learned to take advantage of them.

    In this case, if ever I learn to travel at the speed of light - look out God.

  • These celestial laws are outside our universe.

    In this case we can only take advantage of these laws by moving outside our universe.

  • Neither one of us is right and we need to keep looking.

Question is, if the Universe has boundaries, could GOD still be outside of such? I don’t believe it is so. I believe, we are part of the collective of GOD, which GOD is part of a bigger collective them HIMSELF.

Thanks again for your warm response...

I know it might not seem this way, but the key takeaway that I get from your post is that you truly think God is all-powerful. That is the main reason why I jumped in this thread to begin with. When given an option, I tend to side with a more powerful God rather than a less powerful one. We both agree that he is not bound by the physical laws. Where we differ is whether these laws are supplanted by "higher" laws in the center of the galaxy or outside of our universe altogether.
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Interesting concept, but I don't know if god is bound by anything. I think that whatever he does, or does not do, is his own choice.

God is bigger, faster, tougher, stronger, smarter and far more powerful than any of us, by a LONG shot. He answers to no one, and nothing. He runs the show. He makes the rules. Doesn't matter if we think the rules are fair or not. None of us are big or powerful enough to argue. This world and this universe belong to him. The rules are set in place because they are HIS standards and preferences. They represent the way HE wants things to be.

Everything that has ever happened, happened for only one reason-- God wanted it to. Perhaps not directly, I'm sure God doesn't want children to be kidnaped and murdered, or anything. But God made it so that those things CAN happen. He wants us to be responsible for what we do, but he's not mean enough to nail that burdon against us without giving us free will (he could, and there are sick-o's who would, but he doesn't). And unfortunatly, when you give everyone free will, bad things happen. But still, God set it up that way, because that is what he wanted.

Likewise, he wants us to have faith. He wants us to be tested, and he wants to judge us for our actions. So what if some people think its all pointless, this is his world, and its going to happen weather we like it or not. The reason he will follow through with justice, is because he wants to. And the reason he is not around when impure things are happening, or when impure people are around, is because he does not wish to be.

Nothing is forcing him, he just has his own preferences. Like me-- its not that I "can't" go in a bar. I just don't want to.

And why would god create something that could develop into Satan, or hell? Why would he allow them to exist? Heck, I don't know... Maybe he's bored! lol. Planet earth is more than 4.5 BILLION years old. And the universe, much, much older. Can you imagine being around for that long? For Pete's sake, what would you do?!!!! That's enough time for every hobby, action, interest, and adventure imaginable to completely run itself into the ground, a trillion times over!

What do you do, when you've already tired yourself of everything you can possibly take an interest in? I'll tell you what you do-- you create something with a mind of its own, something that will work, grow and develop by itself in an unpredictable manor, to make things more interesting. Aka--- us!

Same reason I like to do vegetable gardening every year. I'm kinda bored with how long, uneventful, and repetative life is, so I like to set things up around me that will surprise me by changing randomly. No two season crops are alike, you never know what's going to spring up! lol. Anything to break up the monotony.

Edited by Melissa569
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