Is this blasphemous?


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Or…perhaps, using other earth’s statistics, past creations having the same play but with different actors playing their parts. The probability becomes known after several worlds.:cool:

I agree that is the way, mostly, God can "see" everything and be eternal. But, that is not a measurement of time per se. 'Time' to me would require that passed events cannot be manipulated, maybe recalled differently, but could not actually be manipulated. And if God has time, whatever the time frame then, to me, God cannot manipulate past events. I don't believe in a God that is "timeless" mostly because I have no understanding of what that really is nor does anybody in this world ... it's a made up state.

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I believe Stephen Robinson did some research in stating this term didn't come from any bibical text until afterwards by the Greeks.

"It was only in post-biblical times and mainly under the influence of Greek philosophy that the concept of eternity (or forever) as endless time, or timelessness, or as a state outside of time replaced the original meaning of a period, or of an age."Robinson, "Eternities That Come and Go,"

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I believe Stephen Robinson did some research in stating this term didn't come from any bibical text until afterwards by the Greeks.

"It was only in post-biblical times and mainly under the influence of Greek philosophy that the concept of eternity (or forever) as endless time, or timelessness, or as a state outside of time replaced the original meaning of a period, or of an age."Robinson, "Eternities That Come and Go,"

Greek philosophy aside, things eternal, according to our scriptures, have "no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after" (see Abraham 3:18). And our scriptures make a distinction between time and eternity (D&C 39:22).

If covenants are faithfully kept in this life, how long do you suppose you will be sealed to your wife? If the answer is forever and ever and ever, then marrige for time and all eternity means marriage for an endless amount of time. Otherwise you must believe your marriage comes to an end.

Clearly the word "eternal" is sometimes used in scripture to describe things that exist in endless time.

Regards,

Vanhin

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I don't believe in a God that is "timeless" mostly because I have no understanding of what that really is nor does anybody in this world ... it's a made up state.

Well, Seminarysnoozer, it shouldn't surprise you that there are things that you cannot comprehend in this temporal state, things that are nevertheless true. However, that shouldn't prevent you from believing in things that are true. Be satisfied that God comprehends all things, and we will too, when we are quickened.

He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. (D&C 88:41)

Forever, and ever...

My rule of thumb is to just believe the scriptures, whether I comprehend them or not. Things don't have to be understood temporally, as our temporal comprehension is quite limited.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Greek philosophy aside, things eternal, according to our scriptures, have "no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after" (see Abraham 3:18). And our scriptures make a distinction between time and eternity (D&C 39:22).

If covenants are faithfully kept in this life, how long do you suppose you will be sealed to your wife? If the answer is forever and ever and ever, then marrige for time and all eternity means marriage for an endless amount of time. Otherwise you must believe your marriage comes to an end.

Clearly the word "eternal" is sometimes used in scripture to describe things that exist in endless time.

Regards,

Vanhin

Abraham is defining progression of intelligences. I suspect also, either he was not shown from what previous stage we were created from or he did know and it is not given to the world or the church at this time. It is also illustrates that GOD cannot manufacture matter since it was before HIM – meaning – it is eternal to HIM and us. What is written and not clear enough to gain any edification, we were also with GOD from the beginning. There are many different interruptions to this statement.

We do know that our known universe has a core, where all matter therein orbits around it, whether in a contractual or expansion state. As we do know, even Kolob, our governance abode for time, is either a terrestrial sphere or some here would call it a celestial sphere. It is still resides on time. Perhaps, not with our telestial world but with GOD. Even if GOD’s own abode may have a rotation pattern, this is a form of measurement or time if there is a higher sphere. It maybe considered a period of time we cannot even fathom but still a measurement for HIM or those who reside above HIM.

[Knowledge] Exactly...I believe, even in post mortal life, based on what kingdom and glory, you will still not receive specific information. The only exception would be those who will inherit the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom where knowledge is power and the power of GOD (see D&C 93) is perfect and complete knowledge of HIS realm.

I do concur; eternal by our own understanding is a timeless measurement.

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I thought not letting the "past haunt you" was only in reference to events that that individual experienced. But I suppose historians, being more in tune to the past, can be 'haunted' and thus need to "feel safe" vicariously.

Sorry, I was doing some time traveling and thinking about future historians pondering some yet to happen events for us, that are still ancient history for the historians. Gets so confusing when you mix in time travel.

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If I consider time linear, why would I have more than one dimension for it.

The only two that I could think of is that the past are events recognized that cannot be altered in fact, only in terms of recognition and memory (which is not an issue for God of course) and future events which have not yet transpired and therefore only predicted (for God this may be a perfect prediction) which would make them events that we cannot say they have occurred yet. Maybe one could say there is such a thing as present, but the moment one says it is present, it is already past. To me, those are the only two dimensions of time, past and future. The important thing though, at least I believe, those two descriptions of time differ for God, the past events are things recognized and realized and the full glory for which can be appreciated. Future events, on the other hand can only be predicted and prophesied about but even God cannot gain the glory for future events until they become passed events, by definition.

It's a start. You've recognized that from our perspective, there are different properties for time based on before or after. This kind of thinking can lead to something like Narnia time where you have two timelines, but they are running in parallel. This is a good beginning. Now what I'm looking for is maybe more Army of the 12 Monkeys where one person has the ability to travel through time. Make the X-axis the way he views time. Then make the Y-axis time as everyone else experiences it. You will find that both axes have the same properties of being sequencial and they also have the same units. You could even map out the sojourner's life with respect to normal time. You will see that it follows the pattern of a math function, so that f(x) has one and only one value. blah blah blah more math blah blah boring stuff:zzz: I find that this image is difficult for many people to grok, so I don't fault anyone for not getting it.

If you want, we can carry on this conversation through pm unless others on this thread find interest in this as well.

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Well, Seminarysnoozer, it shouldn't surprise you that there are things that you cannot comprehend in this temporal state, things that are nevertheless true. However, that shouldn't prevent you from believing in things that are true. Be satisfied that God comprehends all things, and we will too, when we are quickened.

He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. (D&C 88:41)

Forever, and ever...

My rule of thumb is to just believe the scriptures, whether I comprehend them or not. Things don't have to be understood temporally, as our temporal comprehension is quite limited.

Regards,

Vanhin

The Lord does not expect us to believe in what we can not comprehend. We are told that we can pray and search our hearts and one day we may comprehend it but until that day we do not have to believe in something until we have that witness.

With the Lord and through the spirit, all things are possible to understand. It just take time and sometimes our time is not the Lord's. But blind obedience is not a great way to live the gospel or study the scriptures for it becomes our weakest link in the armor of God.

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Well, Seminarysnoozer, it shouldn't surprise you that there are things that you cannot comprehend in this temporal state, things that are nevertheless true. However, that shouldn't prevent you from believing in things that are true. Be satisfied that God comprehends all things, and we will too, when we are quickened.

He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. (D&C 88:41)

Forever, and ever...

My rule of thumb is to just believe the scriptures, whether I comprehend them or not. Things don't have to be understood temporally, as our temporal comprehension is quite limited.

Regards,

Vanhin

There is a difference though in believing in a concept that I can describe the concept even though I don't know how it is done versus believing in something that cannot even be described. Do you believe in the concept of "gobledeguck"? Why not? ...you don't have to understand everything about it to believe in it. What is "gobledeguck"? I don't know, I can't explain it.

Same thing can be said about "timelessness", it's a made up concept that nobody in this life can even describe, let alone believe in it. You don't know what timelessness is, I don't know what it is, nobody knows what that is .... maybe because there is no such thing. (I am not talking about "without a beginning or end" or "eternity", just saying "timeless" or "timelessness")

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It's a start. You've recognized that from our perspective, there are different properties for time based on before or after. This kind of thinking can lead to something like Narnia time where you have two timelines, but they are running in parallel. This is a good beginning. Now what I'm looking for is maybe more Army of the 12 Monkeys where one person has the ability to travel through time. Make the X-axis the way he views time. Then make the Y-axis time as everyone else experiences it. You will find that both axes have the same properties of being sequencial and they also have the same units. You could even map out the sojourner's life with respect to normal time. You will see that it follows the pattern of a math function, so that f(x) has one and only one value. blah blah blah more math blah blah boring stuff:zzz: I find that this image is difficult for many people to grok, so I don't fault anyone for not getting it.

If you want, we can carry on this conversation through pm unless others on this thread find interest in this as well.

I find it interesting, I just don't find it very practical or useful in the gospel either. If you can somehow tell me how it would be necessary in the gospel, then I would be interested in trying to understand those theories. Right now, possibly because of my limited understanding, I have no need for anything more than one timeline for God even. He may have a different perspective of time, but still I don't see that there has to be any parallel timelines or other timelines for that matter. To me, that seems like an unnecessary made up concept. Like saying God uses "light to flow through veins" to keep eternal bodies alive or whatever. We have no basis to even talk about alternative timelines etc. only when related to fictional works. The same goes for time travel, that is a fun topic, I enjoy movies and novels that use that theme (one of my favorite books is Timeline by Crichton) but I never incorporate that into what I believe is true or real for that matter, I have no need to.

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I do concur; eternal by our own understanding is a timeless measurement.

One point about that though, is one cannot have eternity without time.

I think people get confused about Joseph Smith's metaphor as the eternities being like a ring, if traced out there is no end. The problem with that metaphor that I think gets over interpreted is that people think that means that the same ground is covered over and over again, that the whole system restarts itself. That metaphor, in my opinion, was never intended to mean that we go back in time and restart the whole process over again, nor does God. It means that He uses the same system and method that has always been used, thus making it eternal. But each time He uses the system over again it is not going back in time or redoing anything. What has been done has been done, and I don't think He can alter the past or go back to the past but by memory alone. It definitely, does not mean that He can time travel.

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If covenants are faithfully kept in this life, how long do you suppose you will be sealed to your wife? If the answer is forever and ever and ever, then marrige for time and all eternity means marriage for an endless amount of time. Otherwise you must believe your marriage comes to an end.

It either exists forever or it must come to an end...

Or, in those words I also see how something that exists forever and ever can't have a beginning. But, there it is, a perfect example of something that exists forever and ever yet has a beginning (eternal marriage).

Here is my difficulty seeing your interpretation. Maybe you can help me.

Taking your example of eternal marriage:

For your definition to be true, that means those 2 people would have had to be married before they actually were. An eternal marriage means from the moment the covenant is made, forward in eternity. That cannot be forever, since they were married at one moment, and not the prior moment... but the scriptures call it forever.

There is something we are missing as mortals in our ability to understand eternal things.

I think the pattern is that something can begin to exist and be eternal at the same time. Something can begin to exist and yet exist for ever.

You can understand it as things that exist forever and ever cannot have beginning or end, and thus think we, and even God, could not have had a beginning. Or, you can think that something that is infinite and forever can be so and yet have a beginning (like your example of eternal marriage).

I think a puzzle piece can be found in eternal rounds.

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I suspect also, either he was not shown from what previous stage we were created from or he did know and it is not given to the world or the church at this time.

We know that the pre-mortal spirit existence was called our First Estate, and this life is called our Second Estate.

It seems if there was an existence prior to being born (created) as a spirit, then the pre-earth spirit life would have been called Second Estate.

Just food for thought.

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It either exists forever or it must come to an end...

Or, in those words I also see how something that exists forever and ever can't have a beginning. But, there it is, a perfect example of something that exists forever and ever yet has a beginning (eternal marriage).

Here is my difficulty seeing your interpretation. Maybe you can help me.

Taking your example of eternal marriage:

For your definition to be true, that means those 2 people would have had to be married before they actually were. An eternal marriage means from the moment the covenant is made, forward in eternity. That cannot be forever, since they were married at one moment, and not the prior moment... but the scriptures call it forever.

There is something we are missing as mortals in our ability to understand eternal things.

I think the pattern is that something can begin to exist and be eternal at the same time. Something can begin to exist and yet exist for ever.

You can understand it as things that exist forever and ever cannot have beginning or end, and thus think we, and even God, could not have had a beginning. Or, you can think that something that is infinite and forever can be so and yet have a beginning (like your example of eternal marriage).

I think a puzzle piece can be found in eternal rounds.

I agree. I think "eternal rounds" is the key to those kinds of statements. It means that the reason we have "eternal marriage" is because there were couples before us that had eternal marriage to have us, and therefore couples that had eternal marriage before them, etc. It doesn't mean that one specific eternal marriage existed always. The same applies to us as individuals, we had a beginning, but "individuals" (i.e.- intelligences) always existed and therefore "intelligence" and God for that matter have always existed. That is also how I view this concept of the eternities without beginning or end.

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  • 9 years later...
On 7/29/2010 at 10:40 AM, Hemidakota said:

I believe Stephen Robinson did some research in stating this term didn't come from any bibical text until afterwards by the Greeks.

 

"It was only in post-biblical times and mainly under the influence of Greek philosophy that the concept of eternity (or forever) as endless time, or timelessness, or as a state outside of time replaced the original meaning of a period, or of an age."Robinson, "Eternities That Come and Go,"

Available here: https://rsc-legacy.byu.edu/sites/default/files/newsletters/May%2C 1994.pdf

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