dating advice needed.


riverogue
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So Wednesday afternoon I was on an LDS dating sight and was contacted by another woman for chatting, and we chatted for an hour. She said she was pretty religious, very shy, affectionate, and liked the outdoors. I thought she would be a good match for me. She asked if I was doing anything that evening. Well I was busy that evening, but the next evening we went on a date to see a movie at Jordan Commons and to dinner at the Mayan. As far as communicating she seemed a little distant, just one sentence answers whenever I asked about herself, and she didn't really make much initiative to speak to me. I though maybe it was because she is shy, but I wasn't sure at all. During the beginning of the movie I made the first move (holding her hand) at first her fingers were limp but she grasped mine tighter later during the movie, moved her hand away to touch her hair or something a few times, and continued to interlace her fingers in mine. She also leaned her body against mine after mid movie. I cupped her hand in mine on my knee. It felt romantic. And I held her hand in public while walking out to her jeep. She had to drive me all the way back to Orem, as I dont have a car. She lives in Salt Lake. I asked if I could call her later to ask her on another date and she said I could just text her as she can't answer her cell often. So I am a little confused as to whether she is attracted to me based on conflicting body language vs. her not speaking much to me. I dont have much dating experiance even though I am 30 and divorrced. She is 30 too, but said that she has never been in a long-term relationship. I would like to go to church together onSunday, but I don't know if it is appropriate to ask her if I can attend her ward with her. I'd ask if she wanted to attend church at my ward, but she would have to drive for an hour just to get to Orem. I could just take UTA for free to Salt Lake without the expense or stress of driving.

-Do you think she is interested?

-How long should I wait to text her?

-Is it appropriate to ask a woman if I can go to church with her after the first date like mine?

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Okay one red flag to me. You can text her but not call her. If she was THAT interested she would be wanting to get a phone call from you.

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1. Its always appropriate to ask anything that's not illegal, immoral, or fattening. How are you supposed to know if you don't ask?

2. I think you got a little frisky there, trooper. I think its best to wait a date or two before holding hands. I also find that women, most anyway, absolutely melt if after a few dates you shyly look at them, while looking back and forth to your feet, to, with a shy voice, ask her permission to hold her hand.

I worked that angle with a number of gals and all of them responded very, very well.

It went even better when I used the same track to ask for a kiss. They were all practically begging for it at that point, but I played the niaeve and innocent track to a "T."

One gal, a physician (long story about her, gawd I miss her. I wish I hadn't screwed that one up, and that she was a nicer person - she was the love of my life), after the 4th date looked at me and said "At some point it becomes ungentlemanly NOT to ask for a kiss..." Yeah, she was a little bit agressive. I liked it. I wish things could have worked out between us;; she'll always be 'the one that got away.'

2. On texting. Its pretty common nowadays to txt people you're dating. At first, I thought it to be very.. disrespectful, but its just part of modern courting. I adapted a procedure of txting about a half-hour after the first date, with a shy message of "phew, were you as nervous as I was? I barely kept my knees from knocking together. I really enjoyed your company; than you very much for spending the evening with me. I'd like to get together with you again very soon, may I call you tomorrow to make plans?"

I found out immediatey if they were interested in future dates, and if they enjoyed themselves. No having to wait and wonder for days. And it gave them the chance to politely and unpainfully let me know if they weren't interested in a future date. No harm, no foul. It was also a chance for me to politely beg off if I didn't want to see her again; I simply thanked her for her time and said how much of a pleasure it was to meet her in person. I found only a couple of women who didn't read the subtext, and they were psycho's anyway. like finding out where I lived and showing up at 3 in the morning with alcohol, sex toys, and a girlfriend type psycho.

3. Church. I'm not sure I'd want to go to church with a gal until we were dating exclusively. The appearance would be.. akward, for both of you, as would the misinterpretation that would be bound to be expereinced by the other members of her/your ward.

4. Vehicle. Owning a vehicle isn't a necessary thing (I didn't when I met and courted my ex-wife - I worked out of town during the week and had a company work truck; only spending one or two nights per week in town on average. I had plenty of friends who were more than happy to do the driving if I paid fuel, and I always had a wingman wherever I went - the Ex-wife woud either meet me places, or when we got more serious, drop by my office when I got back into town and pick me up. Eventually I started staying at her parents house when I was in town - no hanky panky - so I could spend more time with them. Having just gotten out of the Army and having had the traumatic experiences that I did, it was helpful for me to get back into civilian life by spending time with her dad and mom. My parents were.. not too good). Owning a vehilce is convenient.

If you're car-less because of finances, I'd probably reconsider dating right now. You're likely not financially stable and could better use that money for bills, school, or to buy a car so you can be completely independant.

If you're vehicleless because you don't regularly need one, you might consider a rental for the next date. That way the burden isn't constantly on her.

I like having lunch or something similar during the afternoon as a first date. No real stress (you can always beg off by having something critical at work pop up), lots of inexpensive activities like the museum or art gallery, can be short or as long as you want, is in the light of day and you're fully awake and aware. I think the theatre, especially a motion picture theatre, is best held off for future dates. The lighting is terrible, you have little interaction or conversation, its expensive, and it takes a lot of time out of a night. Live action is slightly better because its more ok to critique the performance queitly, and there's interaction between the audience and performers, but is usually also very expensive.

Last thing. Women like to tak about themselves, even if they pretend not to, or don't know that they do. Ask her opinion a lot, do things she's familiar with - preferable something you've no experience with and she has to 'show you' what to do - look her in the eyes a lot, use her name regularly. Never be discourteous or rude. If asked for a controversial opinion, state it politely and as inofensively as possible, but never apologize for it or try to explain it away. Confidence is attractive. As is assurity. If asked to make a decision, make it immediately and don't waffle. And never, ever, say to her "Your mother is HAWT!"

Unless you want to ask the mother out on a date.

Then you should say that to her mother.

Never say to her "your mother is hawt.. and as the old saying goes, look at the mother to see what the daughter is going to look like," because that's just rude. We all already know that's the truth; why state it??? :P

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Oh yeah, one more thing. Always end the date on an upswing, and not when things start to die down. Always, always, leave them wanting more!!!

Even if its the best date you've ever been on and you're having more fun than you ever have had before, end it a little early so she's desperate to get a little more of you ASAP.

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No, not really. I'm just very, very observant. And I've an almost inhuman ability to, not manipulate people, but enginner situations the way I want them. Its not something I want to do, or try to do; in fact, its not something I conciously do; but I have that 'skill.'

I can walk into the worst situations and in short order have things in under control, new friends, and a soon to be next ex-wife. :)

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Well, I think it may be too early to tell. Don't chase after her, but don't totally ignore her. Wait a day or two, then send her a text, like she said. If she still acts standoff-ish, then she's probably not interested.

But as for what she could be looking for... Well that's different for everyone. But many women are kind of similar in that sense. I don't think its about being what SHE wants, or being "too cool to call", or being "sweet and innicent". I think its about balance. A balanced mind is a healthy and attractive one.

For example-- I personally don't like extremes in a man. I would totally dismiss a guy for any of the following reasons:

1-- He's totally clingy and desperate.

2-- He acts like our time together created no spark, or meant nothing to him.

3-- He's TOO innocent.

The first, because "clingy and desperate" people tend to be the ones you later see either fatally stalking a victim, or on an episode of "America's Most Wanted" for murdering their significant other in an emotional rage, before disappearing.

The second, because if our date had little or no effect on him, then its either because he doesn't like me, or because he's a "player" who is just trying to add one more to his many options. Probably trying to mess with my head to make me freak out and worry, so I will jump all over the next oportunity to see him, and he "might get lucky". Either way, I'm not stupid, and I think its a waste of time to date someone who doesn't REALLY like you.

The third because... Well, it may be a little old fashioned, but I like a strong man (meaning very grown up, and lots of life experience that shows in his manor). Not a "muscle head", although he does need to be at least physically stronger than me. Yes, a decent and good man. But see, you don't have to be "innocent" to be decent and good. In fact, its often the people who've seen just how harsh the world can be, who really understand first-hand just exactly why right is right, and wrong is wrong. Its gotta be someone I can look up to. I prefer he either has a lot of natural wisdom and instincts in romantic/intimate matters-- or some decent experience. A really shy innocent guy kinda makes me feel like I'm dating a child, and.... Well, I'm not into that sort of thing, lol.

I never could fathom being with just "any o'le nice guy". Only a certain kind of man can make me stay put (well that, and love). And in your quest to find Miss Right, you may bump into a few women like that. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you, you seem like a decent person. Its just she might be really particular. I'm sure you have your likes and dislikes too. :)

Edited by Melissa569
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Okay one red flag to me. You can text her but not call her. If she was THAT interested she would be wanting to get a phone call from you.

Not necessarily, it could be that she has unlimited texting with very low minutes for her cell phone plan.

And I hope the OP will NOT take the advice of MisterT. I find his methodology not only offensive but deceptive.

You be yourself. If you'd like to see her, text her. Don't worry so much and take your time.

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No, not really. I'm just very, very observant. And I've an almost inhuman ability to, not manipulate people, but enginner situations the way I want them. Its not something I want to do, or try to do; in fact, its not something I conciously do; but I have that 'skill.'

No matter which way you dice and slice this, it's manipulation and it's absolutely the wrong way to go about having friends and entering into relationships.
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Melissa, you totally forgot the shoes.

I've refused to date many a man because of his shoes. It's just one of those things. I'd never date a lawyer again either.

lol, Yes, if a guy showed up for a date wearing mismatched, I would wonder about the importance of the date to him. And if he was wearing high heels... Well, that would just be a deal breaker. Can't have him stealing my shoes, now can I? :D

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Couple of things to the OP:

First date with a shy girl, you put her hand on your knee and touched her hair. First dates are for making people laugh and getting to know them. Breaking the touch barrier is important, but there is a type of sensuality to both touching hair and placing a hand on your knee. That can come across as way too serious for a first date. She may be a little freaked out, even if she likes you.

Secondly: One word answers. Just so you know, there's nothing worse than first date 'So who are you, what do you do, what do you like', etc. It doesn't build attraction. As an exercise: Think about how you talk to your friends. Do you ask each other a bunch of questions? Most likely, you carry on conversations. On a date, it shouldn't feel like the inquisition. That's just unnatural. Keep things going. I believe very strongly in 'Ice breaker' conversations - Things that promote discussion, rather than single word answers. "I love your hair!" "Thanks." "We were having a discussion on hair and what it says about a person. You know: Pony-tail means comfort over style, at least on that day. Perm means a high maintenance girl." "I don't believe that!" "It's true! I bet I can tell a lot on you based just on how your hair is."

If you say this in a teasing tone, you'll get her engaged. Make her laugh, keep her upbeat. First dates are all about building attraction and keeping it aloof. What you were doing was based on already held attraction, which she wasn't showing. I suspect you scared her off.

You can come back, but it's gonna require a 180 and you're going to have to slow your roll.

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And I hope the OP will NOT take the advice of MisterT. I find his methodology not only offensive but deceptive.

MisterT sounds like he is da-man. you should totally follow his advice. those things worked well for me when I was dating.

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No matter which way you dice and slice this, it's manipulation and it's absolutely the wrong way to go about having friends and entering into relationships.

"All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players;

They have their exits and their entrances;

And one man in his time plays many parts,

His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,

Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms;

And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel

And shining morning face, creeping like snail

Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,

Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad

Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,

Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,

Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,

Seeking the bubble reputation

Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,

In fair round belly with good capon lin'd,

With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,

Full of wise saws and modern instances;

And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts

Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,

With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;

His youthful hose, well sav'd, a world too wide

For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,

Turning again toward childish treble, pipes

And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,

That ends this strange eventful history,

Is second childishness and mere oblivion;

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything." - Shakespeare

Everyone puts on an act, everyday. Each morning we decide who we are going to be. We can decide to be humble that day, or an absolute SOB. Choosing to be kind and sweet is, hopefully, the act we can put on throughout our entire lives. Don't think for a moment that the 'sweetest' person you've ever known can't turn into the biggest jerk you've ever met under the right circumstances. Even Christ pulled out the bullwhip and chased the money lenders off of the Temple grounds.

Men and Woman always modify their behaviours when around each other socially and romantically; its part of the mystique of gathering with potentil suitors. Would you even consider being courted by a man who burps, farts, and scratches his.. face while on a date? But you know that's what he does in private, and you also know that's what you do in private. And you know that when you're comfortable with eachother you'll do it in eachother's presence at that point.

Or would you prefer a guy who treats you like what you really and truly are, deep down, to his superego??? A woman, like any contest, is to be won at any cost and by any method.

I dunno about you, but I'd rather my daughter was courted by a guy who played the courtship game coyly, rather than bringing his club slung across his bare shoulder while his clothed loins squatted to pick her up and toss her across his shoulder, or grabs her by the hair to drag her back to his cave. There are appropriate times for the appearance of such activities, generally after the marraige contract has been signed, and never in a violent manner; but by and large coy innuendo and flirtateous innocent persuit are a much better tract to take.

Do you not think that men and women felt the same way a hundred years ago as they do today? That the same urges and personality types existed? Perhaps that's why courting rituals were the way they were; coy glances, innocent remarks, chapperoned meetings, shy courtship; it was all an act back then; why was it OK at that point but not now?

Courtship rituals and the maturity of courting couples changes with age. At my age I am past the impetuous and truly innocent hormonal persuit of puberty and young adulthood, but still within the age that it is appropriate to be mysterious, fun, coy, shy, agressive when appropriate, calm, thoughtful, and not necessarily braggadocious, but confident in One's ability to interpret and perform.

At your age I imagine a lot of the courtship rituals and games are different; You've already lived quite a bit more than half your life, have had lovers and villians come and go, and are looking for companionship through friendship more than anything else. Or so I'm told by my ladyfriends in that age bracket.

Most of my friends are female; most guys tend to either like me or hate me with few in between. They have coached me over the years on courtship behaviours and roleplaying; much the same way as what my mother shoud have when I was a young man.

I get people interested in me by behaving in a manner that is attractive, before closing my lethal pedals around them.. oh, sorry, I was just looking at my Venus Flytrap... A marvelous adaptation of life it is!!!

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A woman, like any contest, is to be won at any cost and by any method.

Without question, this is the worst piece of advice, comment, or statement ever made in this forum. I would consider all statements made before and after this comment by this individual to be null and void.

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Everyone puts on an act, everyday.

FALSE. Only those that don't live true to themselves actually expect that everyone else does the same. You simply are not aware enough to understand how what you say about others is more of a reflection of your beliefs and processes, than it is of how other people operate.
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I don't date exactly because of this situation. Awkward. Yeck. Can. Do. Without.

I got a bazillion friends I hung out with. Somebody shows interest in me - or if I find somebody interesting - they join my circle of friends. Best way to get to know somebody without that awkward, "what's your favorite color?" inquisition.

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I hate to defend Mr. T but people do modify their behavior depending on the situation they are in and the people they are around. You act differently around your boss than you do your friends, at church than at the amusement park. You act differently the day you lose your job than you do that day you graduate from college.

So to that extent people do put on an act. Now if he means to say that people are (or worse should be) 100% fake all the time never revealing any part of who they are then that I do disagree with, but I'm not entirely sure that is what he is saying. I'm thinking the nuance may be getting lost in his bombast. Or to be fair I'm seeing nuance that he's not claiming.

Edited by Dravin
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Without question, this is the worst piece of advice, comment, or statement ever made in this forum. I would consider all statements made before and after this comment by this individual to be null and void.

Id, ego, and super-ego - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nice way to take a sentence out of context and completely change the meaning of the statement. Did you learn this from James Carville or Ari Fleischer?

The skill is known as "Reading comprehension," a skill that is in apparent decline lately.

The superego of a man sees every problem as a conflict that requires a martial solution; a contest that must be won. As I stated IN CONTEXT, this is suppressed by courtship ritual and behaviour to be less adversarial and most.. spirited.

Every relationship is a contest; why else would people say "I was eventually won over," or "He won my heart." One cannot win a contest that doesn't exist.

Men also most contest against other suitors for the prize of the woman; a prize she freely makes of herself after allowing courtship and persuit.

Don't want to be contested over? Withdraw from society.

I'm not saying anything that isn't true; if you think you've above these base instincts, you're lying to yourself. The behaviours of man are as instincual and impossible to overcome as unconsciously breathing.

I highly suggest everyone take a college level course on psychology, human sexuality, human interaction, or conflict resolution; learn why it is that you do the things you instinctually do. Maybe then you can consciously suppress the 'natural man' instead of denying his existance.

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FALSE. Only those that don't live true to themselves actually expect that everyone else does the same. You simply are not aware enough to understand how what you say about others is more of a reflection of your beliefs and processes, than it is of how other people operate.

Im sorry that you disagree with me and modern psychology/psychiatry.

You are not above daily role-playing. You are doing it with this post.

It is humanity to cast off base desire and clothe One's self in a costume more appropriate for One's environment.

Be intellectually honest with yourself; realize that you have the potential, by not even trying, to be foul; but instead choose to be fair. A choice that is made every day.

Some people are able to go their whole lives and stay in character; some people are described by their neighbors as "...the nicest guy I ever met.. never though he was capable of donig that..." Rarely does anyone set out to rebel against Nature and Nature's God, its something that they slip into over time when not actively seeking to suppress their natural desires and instincts.

That is the reason for the atonement.

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Sounds to me like she's interested, but after one date who knows? Text her and see if she wants to go out again and then you'll know! Take it slow, have some fun together and don't try to figure out straight away if its serious.

As someone who is shy and didn't have a long term relationship till I was 28, I can tell you that the first time I took my boyfriend to my ward I was really, really nervous - that feeling that everyone was watching and that if the relationship didn't work out everyone would know - scary! And that was after 6 weeks of dating him! So I'd say don't even suggest going to church together till you're an item - who needs the extra pressure?

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I hate to defend Mr. T but people do modify their behavior depending on the situation they are in and the people they are around. You act differently around your boss than you do your friends, at church than at the amusement park. You act differently the day you lose your job than you do that day you graduate from college.

So to that extent people do put on an act. Now if he means to say that people are (or worse should be) 100% fake all the time never revealing any part of who they are then that I do disagree with, but I'm not entirely sure that is what he is saying. I'm thinking the nuance may be getting lost in his bombast. Or to be fair I'm seeing nuance that he's not claiming.

I use a lot of hyperbole and allegory when making a point. First its more interesting and easier to read, and second it allows sarcasm and humor; imagine how.. droll my 'bombast' would be if I presented every position dryly and precisely accurately scientifically and psychologically.

I don't believe for a second that people should be 'fake' in their dealing with others; I am saying that people put on a mask of civility and courtesy daily, as they should. The Natural Man is a hideous being; we all learn to act differently when growing up. Hopefully.

That's what's known as 'behaviour modification,' something we strive to help our children with daily. And convicted criminals. And pizza delivery boys.

Its very appropriate to change the way we behave based upon our surroundings; I'd hate to be hanging out with my mates and have them all act as though they were trying to woo me; that would be just creepy. I'd much rather they punched me in the shoulder or tried to give me a wedgie; that's how guys show love towards each other.

Just the same, I'd he horrified if some guy, or gal, did that to their date.

I'm sorry you people take me so literally; I'm trying to actively engage in an interesting conversation that includes spirited debate on a lively topic in such a way that is fun to read and informational to those who haven't had these experiences or educations.

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I'm sorry you people take me so literally; I'm trying to actively engage in an interesting conversation that includes spirited debate on a lively topic in such a way that is fun to read and informational to those who haven't had these experiences or educations.

Fun to read can end up sacrificing informational and visa versa. I agree a dry clinical tone would be dull and certainly am not advocating that everyone do such. I think though that you, like Snow, tend to have your message obscured by your presentation.

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Id, ego, and super-ego - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nice way to take a sentence out of context and completely change the meaning of the statement. Did you learn this from James Carville or Ari Fleischer?

The skill is known as "Reading comprehension," a skill that is in apparent decline lately.

You are right, I re-read and did take it out of context. I have deleted the remark. My apologies.

Though I must say, I dont really agree with much you are saying. Your view on dating and relationships is far too analytical for my taste. You seem to be talking in circles, saying once to put on a show, then also saying that you cannot overcome the natural man. I dont really get what you are saying. Im not totally sure if you do either.

What fruits have come from your labors in following your recommended practices or dating theory?

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My apologies as well; I'm unintentinally bull-dogish when debating anything; nothing personal, its a character flaw.

I may be using to many.. flourished words to be easily understood. My general theme is that we all, as we must, overcome our natural desires and conform to the social norms of courtship as part of the dating process. We cannot behave in any way we wish and expect to be selected by a potential mate. We must calm our desires, harness our energy, and intelligently seek out and win the heart of the One we are to be with.

Wandering about aimlessly and without a plan leads many people into relationships that are unfulfilling or sometimes even dangerous or spiritually destructive.

What have my dating experiences brought me?

I have met and known many many women; some have enriched my life, and others have poisioned it. But I value every experience I've had. Some are relationships that I will cherish for as many years as I breathe, and although we were not suitable as partners, I hope our friendship will be maintained through the vail and into eternity. Others I cherish as a reminder of what I can become when not strictly following the dictates of my conscience; that I too can be destructive to the spirit of another if I do not consciously control that part of my psyche.

I have known physicians and surgeons, a Judge and several minor Jurists; lawyers and executives, along with maids, waitresses, nanny's, and nurses. None were of any more value than the other, as all were all the beautiful daughter of some mother and father.

I've had great relationships, and not so great one's. I was married for 14 years and had 4 lovely daughters.

I currently am not dating because I lost my company last year and I've had to concentrate my finances to surviving the current economic depression. Yes, I am very lonely, but I haven't the ability to care for more obligations at the moment, so it would be disengenuous at the moment to date; as the purpose of dating is to find a spouse, and I cannot handle the added expense of maintaining another mouth.

When I am more financially sound again, I probably won't date again, at least for a long while. I'm more interested in building relatioships that aren't of a marital nature so that I have the emotional support I need to carry me through the turbulance of courtship.

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