dating advice needed.

[MisterT]

Fun to read can end up sacrificing informational and visa versa. I agree a dry clinical tone would be dull and certainly am not advocating that everyone do such. I think though that you, like Snow, tend to have your message obscured by your presentation.

I think you are very correct.

Besides being a trained technical observer, I am a highly trained debator; one of the first things taught about debate are to collect attention and direct it away from the topic by hyperbole or bombastic response. Its not something I intend to do, and its not an emotional response for sure; but its part of my very flawed personality.

I have authored nearly a hundred technical articles, and I want to cry when reading them. I've also been published on satirical matters. Painful for me to read too. I don't really like reading what I've written, hearing what I've spoken (especially disgusted by the reprodouced sound of my voice - I sound, to me, like I have a pineapple stuffed down my longjohns), or having my opinions upheld or poo-poo'd by others.

In fact, I wish I could just shut up most of the time.

But another part of my flawed character requires that I attempt to right the wrongs I see, and it has been my experience that the pen truly is mightier than the sword. Unless someone is trying to stab you with a sword, then I want one too. Or an axe. Better yet, Id like a gun and all my friends to be there with a gun too. Or to just not be there when someone comes looking for me with a sword.

You get my point.

[Cassiopeia]

Everyone puts on an act, everyday. Each morning we decide who we are going to be. We can decide to be humble that day, or an absolute SOB. Choosing to be kind and sweet is, hopefully, the act we can put on throughout our entire lives. Don't think for a moment that the 'sweetest' person you've ever known can't turn into the biggest jerk you've ever met under the right circumstances. Even Christ pulled out the bullwhip and chased the money lenders off of the Temple grounds.

No, sir. Not everyone puts on an act. The manner in which you presented your first post made it appear that you are condoning manipulating people. You even brag about your ability to do it.

Let me say without equivocality that I am exactly who I am on any given day. I never am false in my actions or words. I don't pretend to be who I am. That would be lying. I get told all the time by people, "everyone lies." NO THEY DO NOT! Not everyone. Just because you think it's okay to manipulate and pretend to be someone your not does not mean everyone does.

What you are describing in this post, is the many facets and personality traits we all hold. No one is just one thing. That doesn't mean we are pretending. I do know some who do pretend for the sake of getting along with others or to get what they want but I would not consider them a good person.

And Christ pulling out the bullwhip has nothing to do with pretense. He is the Son of God and he had every right to chase the money changes from his father's house. He wasn't pretending to be kind and loving, he wasn't pretending to chastise those people. He is the same in who he is though his actions and words vary.

Men and Woman always modify their behaviours when around each other socially and romantically; its part of the mystique of gathering with potentil suitors. Would you even consider being courted by a man who burps, farts, and scratches his.. face while on a date? But you know that's what he does in private, and you also know that's what you do in private. And you know that when you're comfortable with eachother you'll do it in eachother's presence at that point.

If for one moment I thought that a man interested and courting me was doing things in private I would not appreciate in public, I'd not go out with him. A man or woman she be open and honest with who they are from the start.

Or would you prefer a guy who treats you like what you really and truly are, deep down, to his superego??? A woman, like any contest, is to be won at any cost and by any method.

I'm not sure what your question is really asking but this whole as a woman I'm a contest to win, is so far fetched in thinking that I can't begin to tell you how horrified I am to be reduced to a competition. I would far rather that sort of pretense be set aside and the man courting me, actually be interested in me and what I have to say and think and what I do in my life that matters to me.

I dunno about you, but I'd rather my daughter was courted by a guy who played the courtship game coyly, rather than bringing his club slung across his bare shoulder while his clothed loins squatted to pick her up and toss her across his shoulder, or grabs her by the hair to drag her back to his cave. There are appropriate times for the appearance of such activities, generally after the marraige contract has been signed, and never in a violent manner; but by and large coy innuendo and flirtateous innocent persuit are a much better tract to take.

I have a daughter and I really pray and hope that men courting her will show her EXACTLY who they are. What you are describing has to do with adapting good manners and being a considerate human being and one must never fake that.

Do you not think that men and women felt the same way a hundred years ago as they do today? That the same urges and personality types existed? Perhaps that's why courting rituals were the way they were; coy glances, innocent remarks, chapperoned meetings, shy courtship; it was all an act back then; why was it OK at that point but not now?

If a person is shy, then by all means they should be who they are. You are not talking about people putting on an act, you are talking about customs and rituals which are all a part of culture and society. When someone pretends to have these values they are quickly found out. So telling someone to "put on appearances or to pretend a certain attitude" is encouraging them to falsehoods..

Courtship rituals and the maturity of courting couples changes with age. At my age I am past the impetuous and truly innocent hormonal persuit of puberty and young adulthood, but still within the age that it is appropriate to be mysterious, fun, coy, shy, agressive when appropriate, calm, thoughtful, and not necessarily braggadocious, but confident in One's ability to interpret and perform.

At your age I imagine a lot of the courtship rituals and games are different; You've already lived quite a bit more than half your life, have had lovers and villians come and go, and are looking for companionship through friendship more than anything else. Or so I'm told by my ladyfriends in that age bracket.

Most of my friends are female; most guys tend to either like me or hate me with few in between. They have coached me over the years on courtship behaviours and roleplaying; much the same way as what my mother shoud have when I was a young man.

I get people interested in me by behaving in a manner that is attractive, before closing my lethal pedals around them.. oh, sorry, I was just looking at my Venus Flytrap... A marvelous adaptation of life it is!!!

I certainly have not lived more than half my life. I plan to live to well past 100. And no, I'm not looking for companionship through friendship more than romance. I want the fire of romance, the thrill of the first stages of attraction and I want to feel just as giddy as I did when I first fell in love with Chuck the pastor's son who held my hand and took me for a walk and gave me my first kiss at 14.

I have no idea who you hang out with or who is coaching you but I think you need some new ways of thinking.

The way you present yourself here, is rather crude and abrupt and abrasive and if it's an act, it does not do you justice, sir.

I attract people to me because of my genuine qualities. What you see is what you get. I am refined, I have a great sense of humour and I'm a blast to talk to and I genuinely have my standards of how to proceed in courtship. These are not affectations but qualities of my character.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Cassiopeia

[MisterT]

I don't think I'm being understood in the way I'm intending. I don't want people to pretend to be nice and sweet, I want them to practice at it until it becomes a part of their personality.

One of the biggest problems I have in conveying a message in text, is that it lacks the nuances that give it definition and clarity. The gestures, inflection, tone, body language, and spoken sarcasm don't translate well to the written word.

I do not wish to live any longer than I am useful. I do not ever wish to see a day where time and a failed memory have robbed me of all chance of or desire for valor, or all memory of; where my fingers have forgotten their strength. I figure I'm about halfway there already.

I'm sorry if I offend, I don't mean to. I simply am accustomed to dealing with people in a professional environment when discussing things like this; those in the field would immediatey understand what I'm trying to convey.

Oh, last thing. I don't think I've ever felt the feeling of "love" the way most people describe it. I've never been irrationally attracted to someone with a.. burning desire. All my relationships were based upon pleasant feelings and interactions; excellent friendships, but not irrational emotion.

I'm likely a little autistic, and I've overcome childhood dyslexia.

The only really powerful emotion I've ever experienced was hate and revenge a couple of times during my service; but I didn't like what those feelings prompted me to do.

[Cassiopeia]

I'm sorry if I offend, I don't mean to. I simply am accustomed to dealing with people in a professional environment when discussing things like this; those in the field would immediatey understand what I'm trying to convey.

Wow, you sure put your foot in it don't you? You just inferred that I'm not a professional. I happen to be a communications consultant. I specialize in written and verbal communications. If you aren't being understood it is the words you are using and your flippant manner in which you post. There's a difference between being a bland communicator and one that is so verbose the message gets lost in the presentation. You are accountable in part for the reception of how you say things. As we say in my field, "words are everything." They have meaning and joking around about something as serious in nature as this, isn't necessarily going to communicate for you what you hope to. In fact, it often goes the other way.

Oh, last thing. I don't think I've ever felt the feeling of "love" the way most people describe it. I've never been irrationally attracted to someone with a.. burning desire. All my relationships were based upon pleasant feelings and interactions; excellent friendships, but not irrational emotion.

Because I do work in the area of culture and interpersonal relationships as part of my field, I can address this. What you are talking about is infatuation. I personally love that part of the courting process. It makes us giddy. Not everyone has experience being infatuated but that isn't either wrong or right. It is what it is. Deep abiding love comes after initial attraction and infatuation (hopefully). I would be careful in using the word "irrational" when speaking of infatuation because it connotes a judgment. Even deep abiding love can be illogical.

I'm likely a little autistic, and I've overcome childhood dyslexia.

The only really powerful emotion I've ever experienced was hate and revenge a couple of times during my service; but I didn't like what those feelings prompted me to do.

I'm not sure why you mention dyslexia, I've overcome it as well but has no bearing on how I present myself and I can't say if you are autistic or not, but it seems to be the popular thing today to have Aspergers when actually, sometimes we just need to learn and keep our interpersonal skills polished and ready.

And btw...I have every expectation that I will be active and alert right up to my 110th birthday. :)

Edited July 16, 2010 by Cassiopeia

[MisterT]

You are misinterpreting what I meant by professional. I was speaking about psychology and psychiatry professionals. And its quite possible that I am not communicating well.

As for autism Vs. Aspergers, well, its my opinion that an adult who was diagnosed with aspergers as a child and who uses it as an excuse for poor behaviour as an adult, is likely just of poor behaviour because they've never been called on it. True autism, or its 600+ other varieties, are something different.

I mentioned dyslexia because of the part of the brain which causes this is often also part of the brain which is damaged and may contribute to autism.

I don't want to get old, not in the way you're describing. If I'm unable to care for myself fully, I want to cease living. No dotterage for me. I was unable to even dress myself for almost a year once; an experience I would rather avoid by any means.

[Cassiopeia]

You are misinterpreting what I meant by professional. I was speaking about psychology and psychiatry professionals. And its quite possible that I am not communicating well.

As for autism Vs. Aspergers, well, its my opinion that an adult who was diagnosed with aspergers as a child and who uses it as an excuse for poor behaviour as an adult, is likely just of poor behaviour because they've never been called on it. True autism, or its 600+ other varieties, are something different.

I mentioned dyslexia because of the part of the brain which causes this is often also part of the brain which is damaged and may contribute to autism.

I don't want to get old, not in the way you're describing. If I'm unable to care for myself fully, I want to cease living. No dotterage for me. I was unable to even dress myself for almost a year once; an experience I would rather avoid by any means.

communications is a part of the field of psychology and it is a behavioral science.

I haven't described getting old as the inability to take care of myself. Maybe I'll be living with other people that age or in the care of my children or what not but I will be alert and healthy and full of vim and vigor. (or at least that's what I aspire to because I don't believe in living in fear of what might happen).

[LonelyGargoyle]

You telling us you're 30 and asking inane questions like that ??!! OMG, time to get a grip and grow up my man. And then we read all the lengthy responses as if this is the issue of the year.!! Whew.!!

[ryanh]

I hate to defend Mr. T but people do modify their behavior depending on the situation they are in and the people they are around. You act differently around your boss than you do your friends, at church than at the amusement park. You act differently the day you lose your job than you do that day you graduate from college.

So to that extent people do put on an act. Now if he means to say that people are (or worse should be) 100% fake all the time never revealing any part of who they are then that I do disagree with, but I'm not entirely sure that is what he is saying. I'm thinking the nuance may be getting lost in his bombast. Or to be fair I'm seeing nuance that he's not claiming.

Being on best behavior is different than putting on an "act".

For the OP, putting on an act and trying to be something you are not is a terrible idea for dating. It is far better that if your real self is not acceptable to a person, that you not get involved with them. It's great when someone inspires you to do your best and truly become a better person. But that is a different situation than trying to put forth a personality or style that is inconsistent with who you are, and is likely to simply end up in distancing a woman from you when she finds out you've been 'faking'. Not a good foundation for building an eternal relationship.

[SanctitasDeo]

Being on best behavior is different than putting on an "act".

I almost hesitate to comment, but...

It seems like in the vocabularies of the respective authors, they are using both phrases to mean the same thing. The argument seems to stem largely from the misunderstanding created and the bombastic and emotionally-charge phrases (giving rise to at least a perception of an extremely flippant and not necessarily humble attitude) on the part of one of the authors.

But I could be wrong.

Either way, to the OP, I would say, don't think about it too much, don't worry, but wait a bit (though the waiting has likely been enough at this point) and text her, ask her out again. If she says yes, congratulations. I think we tend to read to much into little things, or at least, worry about them excessively.

[crazypotato]

I think this thread has been highjacked into a debate with Mr. T.

[Cassiopeia]

So back to the OP's discussion. I think perhaps it really was too soon to be holding her hand. Especially if she's shy. While it might be a bit awkward there is a sweetness to being asked if someone could hold your hand.

You could do it simply with a gesture of holding out your hand to her and smiling with a questioning look. And if she says no, you smile and nod. AND you don't take it personally. Which I know is really hard.

You mention you don't have a car. I don't know what your situation is, but I'd recommend finding someone to date in your area. Times are hard, people do understand someone not having a car for awhile.

The thing is to try and not stress to much or worry what she thinks. Spend more time working on yourself and resolving the car issue and making yourself feel good about who you are. There is nothing more appealing than a man who is secure in who he is.

[Just_A_Guy]

I'd never date a lawyer again either.

Now, that was just plain uncalled for.

[pam]

I'd date you JAG but I don't think your wife would appreciate it. :)

[UrbanFool]

You're right, I should probably take that back and make it conditional. My home teacher is a retired lawyer. I'm avoiding asking him what kind of law he practiced out of self preservation.

[FunkyTown]

Now, that was just plain uncalled for.

I have to agree with the person who said they wouldn't date you, JAG. I'm sure you're a sweet guy and all, but I just wouldn't date you.

'Cause you're a dude.*nods sagely*

[Dravin]

I have to agree with the person who said they wouldn't date you, JAG. I'm sure you're a sweet guy and all, but I just wouldn't date you.

'Cause you're a dude.*nods sagely*

Now that's just sexist.

[Onhech]

Cutting through anything that has been said in the last four pages (which I have not read), it seems like she has an issue with reality. MAYBE. I don't know but it doesn't sound like she is too comfortable in person as she was virtually. You need to be able to talk not just text. Maybe she likes you but doesn't have the confidence or gumption to talk to you. I may be biased against online sites but from my impression from talking to people this is a common element among the online community.

[ryanh]

I hate to defend Mr. T but people do modify their behavior depending on the situation they are in and the people they are around. You act differently around your boss than you do your friends, at church than at the amusement park. You act differently the day you lose your job than you do that day you graduate from college.

So to that extent people do put on an act. Now if he means to say that people are (or worse should be) 100% fake all the time never revealing any part of who they are then that I do disagree with, but I'm not entirely sure that is what he is saying. I'm thinking the nuance may be getting lost in his bombast. Or to be fair I'm seeing nuance that he's not claiming.

I knew there were reasons I felt uncomfortable with MrT's presentation of the idea of putting on an act, but was not able to correctly communicate it. I happened upon a quote in the Ensign that says it better than I could:

“Danger lurks when we divide ourselves with expressions such as ‘my private life,’ ‘my professional life,’ or even ‘my best behavior.’ Living life in separate compartments can lead to internal conflict and exhausting tension. … Inner peace comes only as we maintain the integrity of truth in all aspects of our lives. When we covenant to follow the Lord and obey His commandments, we accept His standards in every thought, action, and deed.”

Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Living by Scriptural Guidance,” Ensign, Nov. 2000, 17.

Perhaps it's a matter of me being uncomfortable with the stance not so much because one is being their best selves at times, but because they are being their best selves only at limited times, and not in all times and moments in life. It simply speaks of genuineness and complete conversion to me. There shouldn't be a need to put on a "best" self. Ideally, it should always be our mode of operation - even when alone.

[Suzie]

I get told all the time by people, "everyone lies." NO THEY DO NOT! Not everyone. Just because you think it's okay to manipulate and pretend to be someone your not does not mean everyone does.

Just curious if you are placing yourself in the category of people who don't lie. You never ever lied in your life? (small or big things).

[Suzie]

The way you present yourself here, is rather crude and abrupt and abrasive and if it's an act, it does not do you justice, sir.

You forgot.."In MY opinion".

I do not find MisterT's statements crude or abrasive at all. Just as you mentioned personalities, not all of us have that sweet smile in our faces and talk softly. Some people are matter of fact and they speak their mind, it doesn't make them crude.

[Suzie]

I'm not sure why you mention dyslexia, I've overcome it as well but has no bearing on how I present myself and I can't say if you are autistic or not, but it seems to be the popular thing today to have Aspergers when actually, sometimes we just need to learn and keep our interpersonal skills polished and ready.

So because you have overcome it you seem to expect everyone handles their challenges in the same way? It's interesting how you are quick to point out the way others are presenting themselves but you are not seeing the way you are presenting yourself. A communication consultant doesn't make you a psychologist. I deal with special needs children every single day, mainly Aspergers and other forms of autism. Please, out of respect don't try to brush it off, isn't nice.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Suzie