ward implications of breast implants

[MarginOfError]

Suzie:

If this is really such a petty issue, then you do not need to interact on this thread. I think the two articles I provided links to above outline that the breast implants/body image issue is very important in society. Further, do you think Elder Holland and other church leaders would bring this issue up if it was not important. In my mind, this topic is of vital importance, not just to women who get breast implants, but more important – and what this thread is suppose to focus on – the societal/sociological influence. Please re-read Elder Holland council, the APA report and the MSN newspaper article and then try to explain how petty this topic is. And just like Loudmouth, I think you are hyper-emphasizing personal responsibility and not diminishing social awareness of how our individual actions really do affect others. Where I agree with you is on the topic of letting this thread continue.

Her interaction is important because if this only gets discussed by people who think it's an important issue, the spiral of silence allows it to get blown so far out of proportion that those involved begin to lose perspective. It's often crucial to hear and understand that matters that are important to you aren't important to others, if for no other reason than being able to learn that the issue may not be that important at all.

Furthermore, I'd like you to come up with a comprehensive list of statements made by Church authorities about elective cosmetic surgery. Be sure to provide all the references. I'd like for you to demonstrate just how important a topic this is to Church leaders.

Justaname:

In no way am I trying to attack you or am making universal judgments about you character or our wife's. You and your wife are probable very good people in general – like most members. But on this one topic, I think your actions are (most likely) detrimental to other people. There is nothing good about cosmetic oriented breast implants. On a personal level, there are so many health risks – the long term health side effects are still largely unknown. And to answer you question regarding being attractive to women with average to larger breasts (which research suggest is normative in the United States – I think its a male disease) – my suggestion is to learn to be attracted to a women's spiritual attributes (e.g., service, ethic, sense of humor, intelligence, work ethic, kindness) and simply accept her body image. I think the latter is more Christ-like. And with that said, I want to make it very clear in no way am I suggesting I am perfect, but I do try to align all my actions and thinking to the counsel of modern day prophets.

Why can't we be attracted to both. I'll admit it quite easily. I like my wife's breasts. So what? I didn't marry her because she had a huge rack. I married her because I knew she'd be a good mother that I could manage a relationship with.

I will add also – in conclusion (not just to justaname) – that I do not think we should outcast women who get breast implants or any other person who comes to church with outward temptations or sin. Church really is a hospital for the sinners and we are all sinners. These women, despite their actions, should be loved like everyone else. However, in the past ward issue, I really see much more of the responsibility for the divide on these women (and supporting men) who got breast implants. But in the end, we are to forgive and help others. But I still maintain that breast implants create a real social problem that affects many people – both women and men, but also the young men and young men of wards.

And the answer is not to discourage implants. The answer is to encourage healthy personal growth and development that makes people secure in who they are and what they look like. Discouraging the implants is treating the symptom, not the problem.

[Elgama]

I find the following article Is cosmetic surgery a good gift for grads? - Health - Kids and parenting - msnbc.com to be interesting and helpful regarding this topic – especially about the societal norms it reinforces (quick fixes for mental health problems) and how many teenage girls are going to breast implants.

That is a completely seperate issue. However when we come to it, when I was in YW I fimly believe there were lessons in the manual that encouraged poor body image, it talked about how in order to beautiful we needed to conform to what society saw as normal. Apparently being quirky, was unattractive if you wanted a boy to fancy you. I wonder how old some of the women are and whether they are from my era of YW lessons.

I will add also – in conclusion (not just to justaname) – that I do not think we should outcast women who get breast implants or any other person who comes to church with outward temptations or sin. Church really is a hospital for the sinners and we are all sinners. These women, despite their actions, should be loved like everyone else. However, in the past ward issue, I really see much more of the responsibility for the divide on these women (and supporting men) who got breast implants. But in the end, we are to forgive and help others. But I still maintain that breast implants create a real social problem that affects many people – both women and men, but also the young men and young men of wards.

Why is the responsiblity not with the people who were bullying these women? Loving everyone for who they are is also a big theme of General Authority talks. Bugs me you think bullying is fine but breast im[lants are awful

[FunkyTown]

I will add also – in conclusion (not just to justaname) – that I do not think we should outcast women who get breast implants or any other person who comes to church with outward temptations or sin. Church really is a hospital for the sinners and we are all sinners. These women, despite their actions, should be loved like everyone else. However, in the past ward issue, I really see much more of the responsibility for the divide on these women (and supporting men) who got breast implants. But in the end, we are to forgive and help others. But I still maintain that breast implants create a real social problem that affects many people – both women and men, but also the young men and young men of wards.

I want to thank you for your honesty, Dash, and wish to add in conclusion as well that we who are supporting these women in their decisions are not casting a judgment on your own attitudes towards these women whom have gotten cosmetic surgery for reasons we can't be sure of as we are not in their situation.

Despite your obvious sinning, we forgive you and will help you and love you despite your actions, just like everyone else.

But I still maintain that someone suffering from poor self-esteem should not be demonized because they make a choice you would not, simply because you can not possibly know what difficulties they're going through. Instead, I feel all of us should work harder at making everyone feel welcome and accepted regardless of the way they look. It wouldn't stop all of them, since the world creeps up on all of us, but it might help a few to not feel that they need bigger boobs to be attractive.

[Suzie]

Suzie:

If this is really such a petty issue, then you do not need to interact on this thread.

Well, what I need or not need is something I would like to decide for myself. This is not about a "need", this is about wanting to share a different perspective than the one you seem to want to "hear". Please read post #61 of why this is such a petty issue to me and what are some real "vital issues" going on and heck no, checking on people's chest and wondering if their fake boobs affect the spirituality in the ward is not one of them.

[dash77]

First off, I want to publicly apologies to Suzie. I did not choose my words well. What I was hoping to communicate when I stated “If this is really such a petty issue, then you do not need to interact on this thread” was that the topic must be important (and thus not petty) for her to also have dialogue concerning it. I did not mean in anyway, for her to not share a perspective (I also sent her a personal apology). In fact, I appreciate Suzie’s thoughts and would never try to marginalize a voice. Sorry for poor words choices on my part.

Margin of Error:

If you do a search on LDS.org on talks related to plastic surgery or cosmetic surgery, you will quickly discover that many General Authorities and Ensign Article will discourage such surgeries for outward beauty, but will encourages such surgeries to remedy illness, accident, and abnormalities (what is known as reconstructive surgery, not cosmetic surgery). Elder Robbins talk from the Oct. 2008 general conference titled “True Beauty” is another good article – and there are others – go and look. I also think post #7 by Hemidokota referring to Elder Holland’s general conference address in 2005 also outlines this. Do you need some type of long list to start to believe that General Authorizes have counseled again cosmetic oriented surgeries? Do you really just disregard Elder Holland council, just because it’s one General Authority?

Furthermore, you need to connect the behavior of cosmetic oriented breast implants to a larger gospel principle. For example, I’m not sure any General Authority or scripture explicitly states not to use Crystal Meth or Cocaine – but there is a larger principle to not use drugs through the word of wisdom. But you may not find Crystal Meth in an actual conference talk. Same applies to cosmetic surgery and the non Christ-like principle it seem to link to is coveting. When a woman gets breast implants, I am sure she is coveting an image – maybe another women’s breast image, a Hollywood star, or her past image. I think you need to connect the behavior of breast implants to larger principles, rather than look for specific words to create some type of comprehensive statement list. Even if you created this list, would that mean that Elder Holland’s or Elder Robbin’s council is null and void?

And yes, I am explicitly discouraging implants – but I am not saying women who get them are evil or demons. But I am saying such women (and supporting men) do nothing to help others, and such surgeries can create harm in wards and communities - -which some of ushave outlined in this thread.

Elgama:

The no implant women were not “bullying” the implant women. But there was high contention. Rather than thinking of the implant women, take some time and think of the family whose daughter came home and demanding implants because “good” women in the ward got them and thus it was justified by the questionable actions of others members. Then extend that thinking to how some of the YW felt who saw the male disease of YM liking the YW who got breast implants because she had larger breasts. Further, think of the hurt a wife might feel when a husband suggests that she might want implants just like the other women in the ward. It sure would have been better if these women who got implants would have just followed Elder Holland’s council and not got them or if they did, they did not have to tell other women about their new found confidence, that was based on a sexual objectifying principle, rather than gospel principles.

In the end, when I moved out of this ward, these sisters (and brethren) did get along, but there was contention and tension throughout.

[UrbanFool]

Rather than thinking of the implant women, take some time and think of the family whose daughter came home and demanding implants because “good” women in the ward got them and thus it was justified by the questionable actions of others members.

This daughter should be told that she can have the breast implants when she's 18 and can pay for them herself.

[Just_A_Guy]

Soulsearcher

Banned

I just love that Queen song. "Another One Bites the Dust"

He can bite the dust, but I'll bet that dust still won't be as old as . . .

Oh, never mind.

[dash77]

Perhaps if I explain this ward situation with greater detail it might help understanding. Please remember I moved about of this ward seven years ago.

To the best of my knowledge, two women in the ward – good friends – decided to get implants. Then over the months that followed, they wanted to share their excitement and their new found confidence with others. From what I know, they did not flaunt their new chests, but if anyone was willing to ask questions they went overboard to share their new experiences, which included actually show them to some of the other women in the ward and explaining the reactions of their husbands, with vague comments regarding the privacy of their bedrooms. This did cause a real stir of intrigue in the ward.

Over the span of about two to three years, about five or six more women actual got breast implants, one was in the YM Presidency. Only one really flaunted it at church/community and two of the others although they did not flaunt, it was a notable difference – difficult to hide and one of these women was in the YW presidency. Then this flowed over to some of the YW – I do not know how many, but I would guess a handful -- asking their parents if they could get breast implants. One of the women who got them then let her 16 year of daughter get implants – which then lead to all sorts of contention in the YW program, including gossip and it seemed like the developed YM created a cliché as did the smaller breasted YW. Extremely sad and pathetic, yet true. Even worse, I know that many of the YM liked more of the larger breasted young women – even though the nother YW were cute and more important, having beautiful spirits. In one family, the daughter clearly asked for them for a high school graduation present – and she wanted to go to BYU!!!

Urban fool, your reply is appropriate. If my daughter - -when she gets older - -wants breast implants I will tell her that when she is 18 she can decide how she spends her money. I would counsel her not to get them and explain both the personal risks (e.g., infections with surgery, plastic surgery exploitation where there are generally many return visits, long term health effects) and the social consequences (e.g., female role being located as sexual objects, harm to other women) but would make her sure she knows that if she went forward, I would still love her. I would also link it to gospel principles.

However, Urban Fool, please keep in mind that this thread is suppose to outline the social consequences of breast implants, one’s that few women and men even think about, such as how their individual actions can actual cause harm to others. Breast implants, it seems to me, do not have many -- if any at all -- social benefits in life, be it a neighborhood, ward, or at the ideological level of femininity. Can anyone describe to me the social benefits? Most women (and supporting men) can talk about their self-oriented benefits (e.g., self confidence, self esteem, etc – if you consider, that is, self esteem based on breast size as a true psychological benefits – I see it more as a psychological weakness), but what are the social consequences?

Magin of Error:

Just curious if you check LDS.org regarding the keyword search on cosmetic or plastic surgery? Just curious if my interpretation of my own search seems trustworthy.

[Soulsearcher]

Why does this seem like a case of someone jumping off a bridge and everyone else following. The breast implants are no where near the issue here lol, it's the people. Honestly, you can blame the implants all you want, but it seems that these people were all so lost they would have followed anything. I also find it funny anyone would dwell on this so much when all you really need to be accountable for is you, and possibly your family. Everyone makes choices and while you may not agree with them, not usually your place to make too much of a judgment, but that just my opinion.

[dash77]

But soualsearcher, body image is a very real medical/health issues, for both men and women. It is associated with all sorts of struggles and illness, such as eating disorders and depression, scapel and exercise addiction, just to name a few. Body image is a ciritical part of youth development and personal identity. You are not thinking of the social implications, just the personal accountability of yourself.

[MarginOfError]

So people shouldn't get breast implants because someone might not exhibit discretion in the information she shares about them?

I'm with Soulsearcher. The solution to this problem is to teach people to be better people, not to avoid cosmetic surgery. I'm sorry and saddened that these things happened in that ward. But that in no way makes me feel there is justification for an anti-cosmetic surgery stance. To do so, to me, seems like taking an anti-cough medicine for tuberculosis.

[MarginOfError]

But soualsearcher, body image is a very real medical/health issues, for both men and women. It is associated with all sorts of struggles and illness, such as eating disorders and depression, scapel and exercise addiction, just to name a few. Body image is a ciritical part of youth development and personal identity. You are not thinking of the social implications, just the personal accountability of yourself.

That's a load of crap. Soulsearcher, and many of the rest of us on here, are very concerned about the social issues. But addressing cosmetic surgery does nothing to address the social implications. In fact, open and flagrant denunciation of cosmetic surgery would only worsen the social implications. Because now not only are there women insecure about their bodies, but they feel guilty for wanting to change it through cosmetic surgery, throwing them into depression, etc etc.

The answer you seek is not a stance against cosmetic surgery. The answer is to teach individuals about the Atonement, individual worth, and self assuredness.

[Soulsearcher]

But soualsearcher, body image is a very real medical/health issues, for both men and women. It is associated with all sorts of struggles and illness, such as eating disorders and depression, scapel and exercise addiction, just to name a few. Body image is a ciritical part of youth development and personal identity. You are not thinking of the social implications, just the personal accountability of yourself.

I'm thinking of the social implications of not taking responsibility for our own actions. We make choices. Can they be influenced, yes, but in the end, it's the things we do. Why not focus more on teaching healthy mindset vs sitting and whining about how people reacted to a woman who had breast implants? It wasn't the breast implants or the cosmetic surgery that lead to this it was weak people, and it's weak people who are blaming the implants on the things that came after.

[UrbanFool]

When I was 18, I moved to San Francisco, had 8 teeth pulled and braces put on. Now that I'm thinking about it, it was purely cosmetic. And for me it was a HUGE thing. I find nice teeth very sexy, and wince when I see someone with one tooth or serious dental problems. I don't know where I got the teeth issue. But I wasn't about to go one minute longer with crooked teeth.

[MarginOfError]

When I was 18, I moved to San Francisco, had 8 teeth pulled and braces put on. Now that I'm thinking about it, it was purely cosmetic. And for me it was a HUGE thing. I find nice teeth very sexy, and wince when I see someone with one tooth or serious dental problems. I don't know where I got the teeth issue. But I wasn't about to go one minute longer with crooked teeth.

In that case, I'll stop -ing around you and only :) around you.

[UrbanFool]

I actually love this smiley. It's my favorite every forum I'm on.

[Tarnished]

In one family, the daughter clearly asked for them for a high school graduation present – and she wanted to go to BYU!!!

please keep in mind that this thread is suppose to outline the social consequences of breast implants, one’s that few women and men even think about, such as how their individual actions can actual cause harm to others.

I wanted to quote you here. Too often on these forums I see people who speak of things they don't agree with as some sort of juicy gossip. Your first comment I quoted sounds exacly like something someone would whisper conspiritorally behind their hand to someone else. Something meant to create shock and judgemental thoughts of that family and their daughter. So what that she wanted to go to BYU! The school is not going to say, "Oh, you got a breast enhancement so you can't attend now."

Your second quote points out another pet peeve I have. Too often people blame things for their own actions. "Guns kill people. Cars cause accidents. The devil made me do it." When it comes down to it though, we make our own choices. A gun doesn't hop up on it's own and start killing people. Cars don't drive themselves and cause accidents. And we make our own choices when it comes to what we do in our life.

Yes we can be influenced by other people, but our choices are just that, our choices. Social consequences only come about because people are often weak willed, they give in to things that they think sound good, without thinking things through all the way. Did these women's actions in getting breast implants influence others? Yes, it sounds like it did, but it was those other people's choices to choose what to do with that influence. I can't make you upset you have to choose to be upset, just like the original two women did not force the other women to get breast implants, the other women made that choice on their own.

As many others have pointed out there are two sides to this. There are the women who made the initial decision to get breast implants and then there are others who made a choice based on their conversations with these other women. But the choice came down to those women.

We need to stop condemning people for choices we make ourselves. And we need to start teaching our children and ourselves to think things through before making choices, to not be led by things that we see around us. It reminds me of different celebrities out there. Often you see some singer or actress who starts out as a cute sweet teen and becomes a public icon for other teens. Then they decide to train-wreck their life and people get upset because they were a rolemodel to our children. It makes me think that we need to give our children different rolemodels if we want to ensure that they make choices based on what we think is righteous rather than what the world sees as fine. But when it comes down to it we can't blame other people's choices for the choices we make ourselves.

[Hemidakota]

You may have to look in your own wards to see this is a problem: this goes with the statement of insecurities with appearance when it is modified through cosmetic surgery for exhibit only. A few Sundays ago, talking to high councilor at the chapel door before Sacrament, I noticed a pattern of a few women who had it done; showing cleavage (low cut ‘V’ patterns) is a problem. Adding, even stomach tucking or sucking, is another issue where dresses are skin tight at the right old age of 45-60 years old.

[Dravin]

I actually love this smiley. It's my favorite every forum I'm on.

What people rarely appreciate is that smiley is preceeded by this one:

[Hemidakota]

Oh man!!! That had me rolling with laughter.

[Guest]

So why is it that when people find out a woman got breast implants she is automatically a hooker-wanna-be but if an obese person walks in a door we can't "judge" because he might be suffering a medical condition?

I never understood this.

[dash77]

I joined the Church about 25 years ago and it was the best decision I have every made. The Gospel is true and I agree completely with Margin of Error regarding the need to teach people about the Atonement and Christ oriented worth.

With that said, however, the one aspect of LDS culture that I have struggled for years is how individualistic members thinking is on social issues and the lack of social responsibility and social consequences. Yes, the breast implants issue, like all issues, has a personal responsibility and personal accountability component. We make choices. However, there is a lack of awareness regarding how our actions or the environment can really influence others, even the strongest of people (not just what some posters are calling “the weak”) – like King David.

Why do you think the Prophets counsel us to stand in Holy places? Why is the Church active in preserving marriage between and man and a woman? Why is the Church headquarters in Salt Lake City so involved in the revialtilization of the downtown core? The reason, in my mind, is because the social milieu or social factors really influence us. If gay marriage becomes law, the social consequences are that more people will see this as normal. If the downtown core in Salt Lake City becomes ugly and full of saloon’s it will influence how visitors to Salt Lake City perceive the Church. Social events and factors – which includes the behaviors of others – really do influence us.

So I agree that part of the reason people struggled with the breast implants issue is due to choices. But do not be so utterly foolish to think that life interactions and other people’s behaviors do not influence others for the negative (or for the good). Being accountable for our actions does not mean we become blind of how our own individualistic actions can affects others. Being a self-giver – such as a good home teacher or visiting teacher -- is about constantly thinking of others and even changing our own behaviors to accommodate other people’s needs.

Now again, these women should always be welcome in church because Church is a hospital for sinners, but these women should also be thinking about how their actions do affect others, that piece of cognitive information should be part of the decision making process. Being Christ-like is about being aware of others and trying to uplift them, knowing we all have human struggles we all deal with. It is much more than simply “personal choices” and “weak people” – it is personal choices with a social awareness of how our own actions affect others that should be at the core of such decision making (e.g., how might me getting a breast implant affect other people) – thus balancing personal responsibility with social responsibility. And if you do not think the social environment does not affect you, just look at your ethnic dress and ask yourself why you do not wear the ethnic dress of people in the Middle East.

One last question – does anyone have an answer to the question I posed regarding are there any social benefits of women getting breasts implants. I have outlined all sorts of negative consequences and used the ward issue as a case study – but can anyone tell me any social benefits?

[Guest]

One last question – does anyone have an answer to the question I posed regarding are there any social benefits of women getting breasts implants. I have outlined all sorts of negative consequences and used the ward issue as a case study – but can anyone tell me any social benefits?

It is always better to have a ward member who is not struggling with herself so she can concentrate on bigger struggles - like working towards a temple recommend and be able to attend the temple regularly to help those who have passed the veil progress.

It is always better to have a sister in the ward who has peace of mind rather than somebody depressed who can bring the spirit of a ward down.

Of course, these sisters can attain those by other means but it seems like we are not talking about other means, we are only talking about breast implants.

[yorkiebeebs]

This issue doesn't make sense to me. Why would anyone know what surgical procedures you have done. Unless you draw attention to yourself and dress to accentuate it. I don't see why anyone has to know.

How do you know what cup size someone else is. Why are you interested anyway. If the woman has some problems for many years with her self confidence and this makes her feel better about herself than who's business is it.

Unless she gets implants like Dolly Pardon, I don't see why anyone should be pointing fingers or gossiping about it. Sometimes just buying a good bra can make a big difference. Why would this be something discussed.

If I decide to have my teeth whitened, do I have to consider all of the other women in the church that may think this procedure is frivolous? What is I have bunions but they don't bother me physically but I'm self conscious about them and I have them surgically removed. Do I never wear pretty shoes for fear someone might see my beautiful feet and be jealous.

In my opinion, this isn't an issue with implants at all but a spiritual issue in the ward that needs to be addressed.

[annewandering]

I cant help wondering how it even became and issue. Do people routinely calculate your bra size in church? If there is a variance do they have a heart attack and immediately draw everyone's attention to it?

Was the woman bragging about it? Hey look at me! My chest is huge!!!

I doubt either is true.

People are too darn nosy into other peoples business. Can you imagine the woman going to church now knowing everyone is staring at her boobs and considering their size and attractiveness? Unless shes an exhibitionist no way is any woman going to enjoy that kind of attention.

To think that there is TWELVE pages of posts here on the subject is just weird. My gosh dont people have better things to consider?