8: Mormon Proposition

[Spencer]

What did you all think of this documentary?

8: The Mormon Proposition

There is a trailer at the top of the site if you're interested.

[bytor2112]

Well, I haven't seen the "documentary", but the site appears to not promote anything positive or Christ like...so, my initial reaction is what's the point. Gay and lesbian people are angry and want to lash out and are free to do so, but, in the end the people of California have spoken and I dare say there were a lot more non LDS folks that opposed g/l marriage.

From a strictly religious view point, these people are lashing out at the very Kingdom of God on earth and do so at their own peril and probably out of ignorance. I don't pretend to understand g/l behavior or motivations or the pain this has caused them.

Edited August 3, 2010 by bytor2112

[sulli]

I watched it this week. The movie left me bawling.

[bytor2112]

I watched it this week. The movie left me bawling.

Why?

[Wingnut]

http://www.lds.net/forums/current-events/32723-prop-8-film-out-june-2010-a.html

[astral]

I though the documentary was well made. I'm pleased to see it among the top dvd sellers of it's genre. I was baptized in the church in the summer of 2008. Soon after Prop 8 passed in California, I became angry with the church leaders becoming involved with the political issue. The thought the video showed the manipulation of what the church leaders wanted it's church members to vote on. Yes, the dvd indicates that the lds church was not the only organization involved. I was outraged that California became the first state to take away "rights" to what was granted to it's citizens. Fortunately, I live in a state that still allows same sex marriage. I have the right to marry my partner if when I choose. The lds church says same-sex marriage disrupts God's plan for marriage and the afterlife. I do not agree with that stance. I KNOW there will never be a same sex marriage conducted in any temple. How does a "mortal only" marriage disrupt God's plan? The (till death do us part) portion of the ceremony goes in effect when a partner passes away. In the afterlife, the couple would not be married. Let the partners find the happiness they want during their mortal probationary time on Earth. I'm ashamed to be affiliated with a church that spent millions of dollars to deny some people their "free will" in choosing how and what they do to bring happiness in their lives. Because of all this, I feel the church is only "man-inspired" and therefore no-longer attend services. I'm thankful there are five different churches in my community that does not see same-sex marriage as a problem.

[Soulsearcher]

I'm d/l the documentary right now, will probably watch it in the next day or two, kinda curious. Will post thoughts on it later.

[Soulsearcher]

Lol ok so it downloaded faster than i thought and i got curious.

LOL for the sake of Some posters as it's been requested in other threads i'll remind people i'm not lds and i am gay. I don't agree with the church, but can respect their opinions to a point.

Now that we have the disclaimers out of the way.

I'd like to see the flip side of this. I know some of the facts, maybe most of them were spun against the church, that being said it's not the facts that hit me so much. I am surprised by the fact the church wanted to distance themselves from all of this at first, and even later were more worried about negative feed back.

I do think most people should watch this. Not to change their minds about the topic, but like moroni's promise "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent," i think everyone could get something out of some of the stories near the end of the film. I could be wrong but that might have been why someone might cry during the film. Some of the stuff is pretty hard hitting when coming directly from people and not just out of a news article or second hand gossip.

I wasn't surprised by much that was said in this, and i really don't think LDS will argue with a great deal of what was said about church members as a whole. I'll assume the massive misreporting of accounting (about 190,000) was really an simple mistake or there was something non devious about it. Most of the comments by the members and quotes from the church are on par with what i've read and experienced on this site so while it was interesting and the personal stories and the reports on suicide rates and homeless rates in utah were interesting, i guess i was hoping for a more starteling surprise. Good film, really not sure what members will think, but it does portray them as members have responded on this subject.

[Spencer]

Separation of church and state needs to be clear. The misreporting of 190k was their 2nd attempt to get it right... I mean just one family from Sacramento alone gave 50k! There is no way 190k is accurate.

[FunkyTown]

Separation of church and state needs to be clear. The misreporting of 190k was their 2nd attempt to get it right... I mean just one family from Sacramento alone gave 50k! There is no way 190k is accurate.

A family donating is not the church. Even if every member donated $6143000, it would not be the church that donated.

It would be the individuals. The church has no way of knowing what it's members are donating and are not held accountable for finding out.

Also: You should read up on 'Separation of church and state'. The church is allowed to take stances on what it views as moral issues. This is legal and desireable as religion should teach morality and morality should influence government. Marriage was viewed as a moral issue.

[Spencer]

I disagree, have you seen the film? This money went directly for the fight against prop 8. And this is far more of an issue of just teaching morality. Active funding and advertising for a change in governmental law is not teaching morality. That's forcing an opinion on people. Tell me what I need to know about tax exempt status that I am missing. I know that using a 3rd party organization allows them to remain exempt as long as they are subject to independent auditing.

[Spencer]

And I disagree that the church has no way of knowing how much is being donated. Every time tithing is paid, a slip is filled out and placed in a envelope with the money. Not to mention there are annual "tithing settlements" to make sure you are giving at least 10%. The money was given directly to the church and the church then dispersed the funds to their front organizations.

You're right marriage is a matter of morality. So is equal rights among all "Gods" children. Everyone should be allowed to marry.

[astral]

The LDS church asked the members to give their TIME and NEEDS to the passing of Prop:8. Hearing this from the leaders of the church makes the members feel like it's a commandment. They have to follow what the leaders say. The church cleverly used this ploy in a political issue. There is supposed to be a seperation of church & state.

[FunkyTown]

You're right marriage is a matter of morality. So is equal rights among all "Gods" children. Everyone should be allowed to marry.

Why?

[FunkyTown]

And I disagree that the church has no way of knowing how much is being donated. Every time tithing is paid, a slip is filled out and placed in a envelope with the money. Not to mention there are annual "tithing settlements" to make sure you are giving at least 10%. The money was given directly to the church and the church then dispersed the funds to their front organizations.

You're right marriage is a matter of morality. So is equal rights among all "Gods" children. Everyone should be allowed to marry.

Also, what you referred to was 'Individual members' giving to the cause. That isn't tithing. The church didn't provide it. Individual members did. And they gave a lot, but it wasn't the church and it doesn't count as tithing.

[Spencer]

Why?

Why should everyone be allowed to marry? Because its morally responsible and correct. Its a shame you don't know.

[Spencer]

Also, what you referred to was 'Individual members' giving to the cause. That isn't tithing. The church didn't provide it. Individual members did. And they gave a lot, but it wasn't the church and it doesn't count as tithing.

You never answered the question as to if you had watched the film or not? My point was not that it was given as tithing, but it is very possible that it was collected by the same means. Tithing is what your'e required but there are other boxes on the tithing sheets that request extra money for missionary work, etc.

I cannot prove to you that all the money was donated through this vessel, just as you cannot prove to me it wasn't. But it would be silly not to logically deduce that a vast majority was donated through these means as it is how members are used to giving money.

[hordak]

Just a quick note. Laws protect rights, not individual pet issues.

The laws that protect the LDS church in their right to encourage members to financial support the opposition to gay marriage and retain tax exempt status protects ALL churches of all Political opinions and sides of this issue.

In other word, if your angry that the church "got involved" with politics you should be out picketing the "black churches" that told their members to vote for Obama. You should condemn all those Universilist churches and their preachers who would asked members to support SSM.

The silence on this issue is deafening. Problem is most people aren't mad that the church got involved , but that the church got involved and "won"

[FunkyTown]

Why should everyone be allowed to marry? Because its morally responsible and correct. Its a shame you don't know.

It's morally responsible and correct to marry?

Please explain: Is it morally responsible and correct to marry anyone and anything or were you specifically saying that it's morally responsible for everyone to be allowed to marry?

If it's the second, please explain why it's morally responsible and correct. I want to know why it's morally correct.

[Spencer]

All men are created equal.

[FunkyTown]

All men are created equal.

Yes. All men are created equal, but their actions make them inequal. In the same sense that it isn't everybody's right to be a bishop or the President or a worker at McDonalds or Class Valedictorian it is not everyone's right to be married.

If your argument is that everybody is equal, you're correct.

That's no argument that marriage is a 'right'.

[Spencer]

Yes. All men are created equal, but their actions make them inequal. In the same sense that it isn't everybody's right to be a bishop or the President or a worker at McDonalds or Class Valedictorian it is not everyone's right to be married.

And why is that?

[bytor2112]

Why should everyone be allowed to marry? Because its morally responsible and correct. Its a shame you don't know.

Everyone can marry. Men can marry woman and vice versa. As for morally correct, there is nothing moral about two men marrying each other or two women marrying each other.

Frankly, I get sick of these threads. This is going to turn into a bash the church thread and frankly the link to the film is an anti mormon sited and should be removed. People like Spencer should go and peddle his filth in other places and if he is a Latter Day Saint should frankly examine what it is that he truly believes in.

[FunkyTown]

And why is that?

Why is it not a right that everyone can work at McDonalds or be a Bishop or Class Valedictorian?

In the first case, it's because McDonalds is a private corporation and has all rights(Defined as per a Just Claim upon the ownership of said corporation via private ownership) to define who works for them.

In the second, it's because of a Just Claim due to private ownership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and their right due to private ownership of said institution to control all leadership positions.

In the third, it is because the Valedictorian is defined as a student, usually the one ranking highest academically in a school graduating class, who delivers the valedictory at the commencement exercises. Since not everyone delivers the valedictory, not everyone can be the valedictorian.

In your case, there is no private ownership of the institution of marriage and as such there is no legally defined Just Claim. In that case, Marriage is not a 'right' at all. It is simply an act of binding two people legally and comes with certain privileges. Those privileges are being offered to the other side, minus the name. Therefore, there is equality in legal privileges. Equal privilege is not a right guaranteed by law, but it is being offered.

[Spencer]

I don't believe I have been negative. I apologize if I have offended you.