I don't know if I should throw this out there, but...


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Hey why not.

Alright, this was something I was thinking about, and I think this is my stance on the issue now.

The Book of Mormon teaches God could cease to be God.

The Bible Teaches God can't lie.

With one fell swoop I was able to logically overcome the omnipotence problem, as well as some of the problems one might have with Jesus and the Father being God, but there only being one God.

I submit, God is a title, and a name in English given to the Father.

With that logic in mind, the statement God (Father) could cease to be God (Title). If God were to lie, he would change, and thus cease to be God. The requirements for the title are perfection and thus we know as long as God is God, he is perfect, and "not a man that he should lie."

This also clears up Jesus, and God, being God, as both are perfect, and there being only one God (title). Jesus simply submits to the will of his father.

I don't know if I explained it properly, but it does make a lot of sense to me...

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I don't see anything too tricky in what you've said. I think your argument is very logical. I have thought much along the same lines for quite some time now.

We know God is a title or name of a race, technically a more generic title (as you say) than a speicific name (we even know His name).

We know that if God did anything contrary to eternal law (such as lie) He would cease to be God.

I don't think it's a streth to reach your conclusion.

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I don't think the FATHER would ever fall. Who is there to tempt HIM? After eons of immersing HIMSELF in the work of begetting and rearing children to exaltation (which is HIS glory), why would HE one day decide to throw it all away?

I think the FATHER has overcome all opposition possible to reach HIS lofty estate. I don't think anything else exists that could overcome HIS power or even tempt HIM to cease being GOD.

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I don't think the FATHER would ever fall. Who is there to tempt HIM? After eons of immersing HIMSELF in the work of begetting and rearing children to exaltation (which is HIS glory), why would HE one day decide to throw it all away?

I think the FATHER has overcome all opposition possible to reach HIS lofty estate. I don't think anything else exists that could overcome HIS power or even tempt HIM to cease being GOD.

Yes. I agree. But what I believe it is saying is that there is the capacity for that to happen. Not that is will happen. If God changed he would cease to be God. We know God will never ceas eto be God so we also therefor must know that God will not change.

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Maybe if we looked at it from a concept of time it might make clear why God will never lie. In the scriptures it says that He is infinite and eternal.....That He is omniscient (has a perfect knowledge of all things, past present and future) and omnipresent (everywhere all at once, I believe, through the Holy Spirit). So, I believe that it is already known if He has ever lied or ever will lie. I don't think He has/will~

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Think of it as a question of agency. Lehi teaches that agency comes from opposition, from the duality of good versus evil, and the opportunity to choose either. Furthermore, consider this argument:

Proposition: God is all-powerful - there is no restriction on his power. (Assumed from the definition of God)

Proposition: Power comes from agency, the ability to choose one's actions. (We can do nothing if we are unable to choose to do)

Deduction: God faces no restriction on his ability to choose his actions.

Now because God is also omniscient, meaning he has a perfect knowledge of the outcome of all of His choices (a proposition we must accept by definition and by His own statements on the matter), he has the power to make perfectly informed choices. He knows what choices will reduce his agency, and thus, makes choices that will not dilute His own power.

Supposing He could not choose evil, He would have no agency and thus have no power to be God. Without the option, He would, as Lehi put it, have no purpose in His own existence.

The option has to be there - no way around it. His power is unlimited, but so is His knowledge, which allows Him to always make perfect choices. Hence, why He "cannot" sin - He chooses not to.

My apologies if the wording is a little awkward...hope that made sense.

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Guest mormonmusic

From the scripture (which is scant by the way), it appears that even God has rules that He must obey, or else He's not God anymore. Therefore, is He really all-powerful if He has to obey certain rules to remain all-powerful?

HOwever, I'm sort of with Snow on this one because I think this is a figurative way of saying that God is just and merciful -- if He wasn't, He wouldn't be God, and He is....kind of a circular argument really.

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The expression "cease to be God" is a rhetorical device utilized by Alma to teach his son about the need for constant and consistent obedience to the Lord's commandments.

Alma 42: 13, 22, 25--

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

• • •

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

• • •

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

It proposes hypothetical situations where, if certain conditions were to disrupt the balance of justice and mercy, the principles of righteousness would be overturned and "God would cease to be God." Of course, as Alma teaches, God is true and constant and that his laws of justice cannot be robbed by the extension of mercy. The atonement of the Messiah "balances the scales" between justice and mercy.

I see where "CommanderSouth" is going, however. He is seeking a way to harmonize the principle that God the Father is God, that Jesus Christ is God, and that the Holy Ghost is also God, yet they are three beings, not one (as our Christian brothers pretend). He suggests that the term "God" is a title, not an actual name. There are many titles the scriptures give us that are used honorifically for Deity: God, Lord, Lord God, Elohim, Jehovah, Redeemer, Savior, Mighty One of Israel, Son of Man, the Branch, the Root of David, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and many more.

In one passage, Moses 7:5, the Lord states: Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also." Any superlative might well be a name for our Lord, because he is the ultimate Good that can possibly exist.

Perhaps the brother's suggestion that "God" is a collective title like "humanity" is not far off-base. Perfect unity exists among all exalted beings. They are all "one."

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I don't think the FATHER would ever fall. Who is there to tempt HIM? After eons of immersing HIMSELF in the work of begetting and rearing children to exaltation (which is HIS glory), why would HE one day decide to throw it all away?

I think the FATHER has overcome all opposition possible to reach HIS lofty estate. I don't think anything else exists that could overcome HIS power or even tempt HIM to cease being GOD.

Do you need someone to tempt you to sin? or do you sin, because its part of your nature?

Personally i am very uncomfortable with the idea that God is forced to be God, and has no agency to be good. I think it shows greater power that He has chosen right and continues to do so. How can He have power over Satan if He has to be good?

There is a huge difference between the statement God will not lie, and God cannot lie.

Edited by Elgama
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Isn't lying one of our mortal imperfections?

who says its mortal? An ability to sin certainly isn't, otherwise Satan and the third wouldn't have gone off. It was the first thing that Adam and Eve tried after the fall. But Satan was able to deceive them before the fall

Are you not uncomfortable with having a power God doesn't?

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Yes. I agree. But what I believe it is saying is that there is the capacity for that to happen. Not that is will happen. If God changed he would cease to be God. We know God will never ceas eto be God so we also therefor must know that God will not change.

The problem with this, we assumed that this is HIS end of creation or progression due to the limited amount of information provided, for I believe this is not the case. Why would we need a a device (white stone) to see above GOD - higher kingdoms - if we stand in HIS presence? Just a thought...

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That's not what the verses say. They are making a rhetorical point. They do not claim that God could actually cease to be God.

Snow is correct...this is a case of nothing more than Alma's hypothetical case. Even the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke about this in Leture 4 to the Apostles concerning the nature of GOD.

(verse 13). God would cease to be God] "God cannot and will not cease to be God. His title, his status, and his exalted position are forever fixed and immutable. Nor need the Saints of God spend a particle of a second worrying and fretting about the Almighty falling from grace. Joseph Smith explained in the Lectures on Faith (lecture 4) that for the Saints to do so is to err in doctrine as to the true nature of God and thus fall short of that dynamic faith which leads to life and salvation. Alma's hypothetical case is just that- purely hypothetical. He is arguing toward the impossible, the absurd, to emphasize the logical certainty of the principle that mercy cannot rob justice. It is as if Alma had said: 'It is as ridiculous to suppose that mercy can rob justice and that men and women can break the laws of God with impunity, as it is to suppose that God can cease to be God.' In fact, Alma concludes, 'God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement.' (Alma 42:23)." (Robert L. Millet, Life in Christ, p. 78.)

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