I don't know if I should throw this out there, but...

[CommanderSouth]

Snow is correct...this is a case of nothing more than Alma's hypothetical case. Even the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke about this in Leture 4 to the Apostles concerning the nature of GOD.

(verse 13). God would cease to be God] "God cannot and will not cease to be God. His title, his status, and his exalted position are forever fixed and immutable. Nor need the Saints of God spend a particle of a second worrying and fretting about the Almighty falling from grace. Joseph Smith explained in the Lectures on Faith (lecture 4) that for the Saints to do so is to err in doctrine as to the true nature of God and thus fall short of that dynamic faith which leads to life and salvation. Alma's hypothetical case is just that- purely hypothetical. He is arguing toward the impossible, the absurd, to emphasize the logical certainty of the principle that mercy cannot rob justice. It is as if Alma had said: 'It is as ridiculous to suppose that mercy can rob justice and that men and women can break the laws of God with impunity, as it is to suppose that God can cease to be God.' In fact, Alma concludes, 'God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement.' (Alma 42:23)." (Robert L. Millet, Life in Christ, p. 78.)

Is this Millet talking, or Joseph? I looked through Lecture 4 (Technically, I searched the Lectures for the word Cease) and find nothing mentioning the term. If I understand the versification of the Lectures 13 simply says he will always do right.

I am not trying to say I think God will fall, I don't believe that for a second, but will and could are two different things.

[Hemidakota]

Lecture 4

Charles D. Tate, Larry E. Dahl, Lectures on Faith in Historical Perspective ( 1990)

ON FAITH

1. We showed in the third lecture that it is necessary to have correct ideas of the character of God to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to exercise the faith necessary to enjoy eternal life. But having correct ideas of his character lays a foundation, as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith so as to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory. We shall now proceed to show the connection between having correct ideas of the attributes of God and exercising faith in him unto eternal life.

2. Let us here observe that the real design which the God of heaven had in view in making the human family acquainted with his attributes was that they might be enabled to exercise faith in him through the idea of the existence of his attributes, and through exercising faith in him, might obtain eternal life. For without the idea of the existence of the attributes which belong to God, the minds of men could not have power to exercise faith in him so as to lay hold upon eternal life. The God of heaven, understanding most perfectly the constitution of human nature and the weakness of men, knew what was necessary to be revealed and what ideas needed to be planted in their minds to enable them to exercise faith in him unto eternal life.

3. Having said so much, we shall proceed to examine the attributes of God as set forth in his revelations to the human family and to show how necessary having correct ideas of his attributes is to enable men to exercise faith in him. For without these ideas being planted in the minds of men, it would be out of the power of any person or persons to exercise faith in God so as to obtain eternal life. Consequently, the divine communications made to men, in the first instance, were designed to establish in their minds the ideas necessary to enable them to exercise faith in God, and through this means to be partakers of his glory.

4. We have the following account of his attributes in the revelations which he has given to the human family:

5. First, knowledge. "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18). "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isa 46:9-10; emphasis in 1835).

6. Secondly, faith or power. "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God" (Heb 11:3). "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1). "The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand. . . . For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isa 14:24, 27).

7. Thirdly, justice. "Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne" (Ps 89:14). "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? . . . have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour" (Isa 45:21). "The just Lord is in the midst thereof" (Zeph 3:5). "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation" (Zech 9:9).

8. Fourthly, judgment. "Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne" (Ps 89:14). "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he" (Deut 32:4). "But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment" (Ps 9:7). "The Lord is known by the judgment which he executeth" (Ps 9:16).

9. Fifthly, mercy. "Mercy and truth shall go before thy face" (Ps 89:14). "And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious" (Ex 34:6). "But thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful" (Neh 9:17).

10. And sixthly, truth. "Mercy and truth shall go before thy face" (Ps 89:14). "Longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth" (Ex 34:6). "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he" (Deut 32:4). "Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth" (Ps 31:5).

11. A little reflection shows that the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity is necessary to enable any rational being to exercise faith in him. For without the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity, men could not exercise faith in him for life and salvation, seeing that without the knowledge of all things God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures. For it is the knowledge which he has of all things from the beginning to the end that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life. And if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God has all knowledge, it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him.

12. And it is not less necessary that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute power in the Deity. For unless God had power over all things, and was able by his power to control all things and thereby deliver his creatures who put their trust in him from the power of all beings that might seek their destruction, whether in heaven, on earth, or in hell, men could not be saved. But with the idea of the existence of this attribute planted in the mind, men who put their trust in God feel as though they have nothing to fear, believing that he has power to save all who come to him to the very uttermost.

13. It is also necessary that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute justice in God in order to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation. For without the idea of the existence of the attribute justice in the Deity, men could not have confidence sufficient to place themselves under his guidance and direction. For they would be filled with fear and doubt lest the Judge of all the earth would not do right, and thus fear or doubt existing in the mind would preclude the possibility of the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation. But when the idea of the existence of the attribute justice in the Deity is fairly planted in the mind, it leaves no room for doubt to get into the heart; and the mind is enabled to cast itself upon the Almighty without fear, and without doubt, and with the most unshaken confidence, believing that the Judge of all the earth will do right.

14. It is also of equal importance that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute judgment in God, so they may exercise faith in him for life and salvation. For without the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity, it would be impossible for men to exercise faith in him for life and salvation, seeing that it is through the exercise of this attribute that the faithful in Christ Jesus are delivered out of the hands of those who seek their destruction. For if God were not to come out in swift judgment against the workers of iniquity and the powers of darkness, his saints could not be saved; for it is by judgment that the Lord delivers his saints out of the hands of all their enemies and those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. But no sooner is the idea of the existence of this attribute planted in the minds of men than it gives power to their minds for the exercise of faith and confidence in God. They are thus enabled by faith to lay hold on the promises which are set before them and to wade through all the tribulations and afflictions to which they are subjected by reason of the persecution from those who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. They believe that in due time the Lord will come out in swift judgment against their enemies, who shall be cut off from before him, and that in his own due time he will bear them off conquerors, and more than conquerors, in all things.

15. And again, it is equally important that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute mercy in the Deity in order to exercise faith in him for life and salvation. For without the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity, the spirits of the Saints would faint in the midst of the tribulations, afflictions, and persecutions which they have to endure for righteousness' sake. But when the idea of the existence of this attribute is once established in the mind, it gives life and energy to the spirit of the Saints, who believe then that the mercy of God will be poured out upon them in the midst of their afflictions, and that he will be compassionate to them in their sufferings, and that the mercy of God will lay hold of them and secure them in the arms of his love, so that they will receive a full reward for all their sufferings.

16. And lastly, but not less important to the exercise of faith in God, is the idea of the existence of the attribute truth in him. For without the idea of the existence of this attribute, the mind of man could have nothing upon which it could rest with certainty: all would be confusion and doubt. But with the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity in the mind, all the teachings, instructions, promises, and blessings become realities. And the mind is enabled to lay hold of them with certainty and confidence, believing that these things and all that the Lord has said shall be fulfilled in their time, and that all the cursings, denunciations, and judgments pronounced upon the heads of the unrighteous will also be executed in the due time of the Lord. By reason of the truth and veracity of him, the mind beholds its deliverance and salvation as being certain.

17. Let the mind once reflect sincerely and candidly upon the ideas of the existence of the before-mentioned attributes in the Deity, and it will see that there is a sure foundation laid for the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation as far as his attributes are concerned. For inasmuch as God possesses the attribute knowledge, he can make all things known to his saints that are necessary for their salvation. And as he possesses the attribute power, he is able thereby to deliver them from the power of all enemies. Seeing, also, that justice is an attribute of the Deity, he will deal with them upon the principles of righteousness and equity, and will grant them a just reward for all their afflictions and sufferings for the truth's sake. And as judgment is an attribute of the Deity, also, his saints can have the most unshaken confidence that, in due time, they will obtain a perfect deliverance out of the hands of all their enemies and a complete victory over all those who have sought their hurt and destruction. And as mercy is also an attribute of the Deity, his saints can have confidence that it will be exercised towards them, and through the exercise of that attribute towards them comfort and consolation will be administered unto them abundantly, amid all their afflictions and tribulations. Lastly, realizing that truth is an attribute of the Deity, the mind is led to rejoice amid all its trials and temptations in hope of that glory which is to be brought at the revelation of Jesus Christ. It will do this in view of that crown which is to be placed upon the heads of the Saints in the day when the Lord shall distribute rewards unto them, and in prospect of that eternal weight of glory which the Lord has promised to bestow upon them when he shall bring them in the midst of his throne to dwell in his presence eternally.

18. In view, then, of the existence of these attributes, the faith of the Saints can become exceedingly strong, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God. And it can exert its mighty influence in searching after wisdom and understanding, until it has obtained a knowledge of all things that pertain to life and salvation.

19. Such, then, is the foundation which is laid for the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation through the revelation of the attributes of God. And seeing that these attributes of the Deity are unchangeable—being the same yesterday, today, and forever—gives to the minds of the Latter-day Saints the same power and authority to exercise faith in God which the Former-day Saints had. All the Saints, in this respect, have been, are, and will be alike until the end of time; for God never changes. Therefore, his attributes and character remain forever the same. And as it is through the revelation of these attributes that a foundation is laid for the exercise of faith in God unto life and salvation, the foundation for the exercise of faith, therefore, was, is, and ever will be, the same. Consequently all men have had and will have an equal privilege.

Questions and Answers for Lecture 4

1. Question—What was shown in the third lecture?

Answer—It was shown that having correct ideas of the character of God is necessary to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, men could not have power to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation. But having correct ideas of his character, as far as it is concerned in the exercise of faith in him, lays a sure foundation for the exercise of it (Lecture 4:1).

2. Q—What object did the God of heaven have in revealing his attributes to men?

A—That through an acquaintance with his attributes they might be enabled to exercise faith in him so as to obtain eternal life (Lecture 4:2).

3. Q—Could men exercise faith in God so as to be enabled to lay hold of eternal life, without an acquaintance with his attributes?

A—They could not (Lecture 4:2-3).

4. Q—What account is given of the attributes of God in his revelations?

A—First, knowledge; secondly, faith or power; thirdly, justice; fourthly, judgment; fifthly, mercy; and sixthly, truth (Lecture 4:4-10).

5. Q—Where are the revelations to be found which give this relation of the attributes of God?

A—In the Old and New Testaments, and they are quoted in Lecture 4:5-10. 1

6. Q—Is the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity necessary to enable any rational being to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation?

A—It is.

7. Q—How do you prove it?

A—By Lecture 4:11-16. 2

8. Q—Does the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity enable a rational being to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation, as far as his attributes are concerned?

A—It does.

9. Q—How do you prove it?

A—By Lecture 4:17-18. 3

10. Q—Do the Latter-day Saints have as much authority given them through the revelation of the attributes of God to exercise faith in him as the Former-day Saints had?

A—They have.

11. Q—How do you prove it?

A—By Lecture 4:19. 4

[Hemidakota]

Lecture 3

Charles D. Tate, Larry E. Dahl, Lectures on Faith in Historical Perspective ( 1990)

Lecture 3

ON FAITH

1. In the second lecture we showed how the knowledge of the existence of God came into the world and by what means the first thoughts were suggested to the minds of men that such a being did actually exist. We also showed that it was by reason of the knowledge of his existence that there was a foundation laid for the exercise of faith in him as the only being in whom faith could center for life and salvation. For faith could not center in a being of whose existence we had no idea, because the idea of his existence, in the first instance, is essential to the exercise of faith in him. "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (or one sent to tell them?) (Rom 10:14). So, then, faith comes by hearing the word of God.

2. Let us here observe that three things are necessary for any rational and intelligent being to exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

3. First, the idea that he actually exists;

4. Secondly, a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes;

5. Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which one is pursuing is according to His will. For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive. But with this understanding, it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

6. Having previously shown the way that both the idea and the fact of his existence came into the world, we shall proceed to examine his character, perfections, and attributes, so this class may see not only the just grounds which they have to exercise faith in him for life and salvation, but the reasons that all the world, also, may have to exercise faith in him, the Father of all living, as far as the idea of his existence extends.

7. As we are indebted for the idea of his existence to a revelation which God made of himself to his creatures, in the first instance, so in like manner we are indebted to the revelations which he has given to us for a correct understanding of his character, perfections, and attributes. Because without the revelations which he has given to us, no man by searching could find out God (see Job 11:7-9). "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God" (1 Cor 2:9-11).

8. Having said so much, we proceed to examine the character which the revelations give of God.

9. Moses gives us the following account in Exodus: "And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth" (Ex 34:6). "The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed. He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy" (Ps 103:6-8). "But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; to such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them" (Ps 103:17-18). "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Ps 90:2). "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; and as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail" (Heb 1:10-12). "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17). "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal 3:6).

10. "For God doth not walk in crooked paths; neither doth he turn to the right hand nor the left; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said: therefore his paths are strait and his course is one eternal round" (Book of Commandments 2:1; D&C 3:2). "Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday and forever" (Book of Commandments 37:1; D&C 35:1).

11. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent" (Num 23:19). "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love" (1 John 4:8). "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).

12. From the foregoing testimonies, we learn the following things respecting the character of God:

13. First, he was God before the world was created, and the same God he was after it was created.

14. Secondly, he is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness, and he was so from everlasting, and will be to everlasting.

15. Thirdly, he does not change, neither does he vary; but he is the same from everlasting to everlasting, being the same yesterday, today, and forever; and his course is one eternal round, without variation.

16. Fourthly, he is a God of truth and cannot lie.

17. Fifthly, he is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted of him.

18. Sixthly, he is love.

19. An acquaintance with these attributes in the divine character is essential so the faith of any rational being can center in him for life and salvation. For if, in the first instance, he did not believe him to be God, that is, the creator and upholder of all things, he could not center his faith in him for life and salvation, for fear there should be a greater one than he who would thwart all his plans, and he, like the gods of the heathen, would be unable to fulfil his promises. But seeing he is God over all, from everlasting to everlasting, the creator and upholder of all things, no such fear can exist in the minds of those who put their trust in him, so that in this respect their faith can be unwavering.

20. But secondly, unless God was merciful and gracious, slow to anger, long-suffering and full of goodness, such is the weakness of human nature and so great the frailties and imperfections of men that unless they believed that these excellencies existed in the divine character, they could not have the faith necessary to salvation. For doubt would take the place of faith, and those who know their weakness and liability to sin would be in constant doubt of salvation if it were not for the idea which they have of the excellency of the character of God, that he is slow to anger, long-suffering, and of a forgiving disposition, and does forgive iniquity, transgression, and sin. Having an idea of these facts does away with doubt and makes faith exceedingly strong.

21. But in order to have faith in him, it is equally as necessary that men should have the idea that he is a God who does not change as it is to have the idea that he is gracious and long-suffering. For without the idea of unchangeableness in the character of the Deity, doubt would take the place of faith. But with the idea that he does not change, faith lays hold upon the excellencies in his character with unshaken confidence, believing he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that his course is one eternal round.

22. And again, the idea that he is a God of truth and cannot lie is equally as necessary to the exercise of faith in him as is the idea of his unchangeableness. For without the idea that he is a God of truth and cannot lie, men could not have the confidence in his word necessary to exercise faith in him. But having the idea that he is not a man who can lie gives power to the minds of men to exercise faith in him.

23. But it is also necessary that men should have an idea that God is no respecter of persons, for with the idea of all the other excellencies in his character, and this one wanting, men could not exercise faith in him. Because if he were a respecter of persons, they could not tell what their privileges were, nor how far they were authorized to exercise faith in him, or whether they were authorized to do it at all. All must be confusion. But no sooner are the minds of men made acquainted with the truth on this point, that he is no respecter of persons, than they see that they have authority by faith to lay hold on eternal life, the richest boon of heaven, because God is no respecter of persons, and every man in every nation has an equal privilege.

24. And lastly, but not less important to the exercise of faith in God, is the idea that he is love. For without this one characteristic to influence all the other excellencies in his character, they could not have such powerful dominion over the minds of men. But when the idea is planted in the mind that he is love, who cannot see the just ground that men of every nation, kindred, and tongue have to exercise faith in God so as to obtain eternal life?

25. From the above description of the character of the Deity which is given him in the revelations to men, there is a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him among every people, nation, and kindred, from age to age, and from generation to generation.

26. Let us here observe that the foregoing is the character which is given of God in his revelations to the Former-day Saints, and it is also the character which is given of him in his revelations to the Latter-day Saints. So the Saints of former days and those of latter days are both alike in this respect: the Latter-day Saints have as good grounds to exercise faith in God as the Former-day Saints had, because the same character is given of him to both.

Questions and Answers for Lecture 3

1. Question—What was shown in the second lecture?

Answer—It was shown how the knowledge of the existence of God came into the world (Lecture 3:1).

2. Q—What is the effect of the idea of his existence among men?

A—It lays the foundation for the exercise of faith in him (Lecture 3:1).

3. Q—Is the idea of his existence, in the first instance, necessary in order for the exercise of faith in him?

A—It is (Lecture 3:1).

4. Q—How do you prove it?

A—By Romans 10:14 (Lecture 3:1).

5. Q—How many things are necessary for us to understand, respecting the Deity and our relation to him, so we may exercise faith in him for life and salvation?

A—Three (Lecture 3:2).

6. Q—What are they?

A—First, that God does actually exist; secondly, correct ideas of his character, his perfections and attributes; and thirdly, that the course which we pursue is according to his mind and will (Lecture 3:3-5).

7. Q—Would the idea of any one or two of the above-mentioned things enable a person to exercise faith in God?

A—It would not. For without the idea of them all, faith would be imperfect and unproductive (Lecture 3:5).

8. Q—Would an idea of these three things lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in God, so as to obtain life and salvation?

A—It would. For by the idea of these three things, faith could become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God (Lecture 3:5).

9. Q—How are we to be made acquainted with the before-mentioned things respecting the Deity and ourselves?

A—By revelation (Lecture 3:6).

10. Q—Could these things be found out by any other means than by revelation?

A—They could not.

11. Q—How do you prove it?

A—By the scriptures (Job 11:7-9; 1 Cor 2:9-11; see Lecture 3:7).

12. Q—What things do we learn in the revelations of God respecting his character?

A—We learn the six following things: First, he was God before the world was created, and the same God that he was after it was created. Secondly, he is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness, and he was so from everlasting, and will be so to everlasting. Thirdly, he does not change, neither does he vary, and his course is one eternal round. Fourthly, he is a God of truth, and cannot lie. Fifthly, he is no respecter of persons. And sixthly, he is love (Lecture 3:12-18).

13. Q—Where do you find the revelations which give us this idea of the character of the Deity?

A—In the Bible and the Book of Commandments [the Doctrine and Covenants], and they are quoted in the third lecture (Lecture 3:9-11).

14. Q—What effect would it have on any rational being not to have an idea that the Lord was God, the creator and upholder of all things?

A—It would prevent him from exercising faith in him unto life and salvation.

15. Q—Why would it prevent him from exercising faith in God?

A—Because he would be as the heathen, not knowing but that there might be a being greater and more powerful than he, and thereby he would be prevented from fulfilling his promises (Lecture 3:19).

16. Q—Does this idea prevent this doubt?

A—It does. For persons having this idea are enabled thereby to exercise faith without this doubt (Lecture 3:19).

17. Q—Is it not also necessary to have the idea that God is merciful and gracious, long-suffering and full of goodness?

A—It is (Lecture 3:20).

18. Q—Why is it necessary?

A—Because of the weakness and imperfections of human nature and the great frailties of man. For such is the weakness of man, and such his frailties, that he is liable to sin continually. And if God were not long-suffering, full of compassion, gracious and merciful, and of a forgiving disposition, man would be cut off from before him; consequently, he would be in continual doubt and could not exercise faith. For where doubt is, there faith has no power. But by man's believing that God is full of compassion and forgiveness, long-suffering and slow to anger, he can exercise faith in him and overcome doubt, so as to be exceedingly strong (Lecture 3:20).

19. Q—Is it not equally as necessary that man should have an idea that God does not change, neither does he vary, in order to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation?

A—It is. Because without this, he would not know how soon God's mercy might change into cruelty, his long-suffering into rashness, his love into hatred. In consequence of this doubt, man would be incapable of exercising faith in him. But having the idea that he is unchangeable, man can have faith in him continually, believing that what he was yesterday he is today, and will be forever (Lecture 3:21).

20. Q—Is it not necessary, also, for men to have an idea that God is a being of truth before they can have perfect faith in him?

A—It is. For unless men have this idea, they cannot place confidence in his word. And not being able to place confidence in his word, they could not have faith in him. But believing that he is a God of truth and that his word cannot fail, they can rest their faith in him without doubt (Lecture 3:22).

21. Q—Could man exercise faith in God so as to obtain eternal life unless he believed that God was no respecter of persons?

A—He could not. Because without this idea, he could not certainly know that it was his privilege so to do, and in consequence of this doubt his faith could not be sufficiently strong to save him (Lecture 3:23).

22. Q—Would it be possible for a man to exercise faith in God, so as to be saved, unless he had an idea that God was love?

A—It would not. Man could not love God unless he had an idea that God was love; and if he did not love God, he could not have faith in him (Lecture 3:24).

23. Q—What is the description which the sacred writers give of the character of the Deity calculated to do?

A—It is calculated to lay a foundation for the exercise of faith in him, as far as the knowledge extends among all people, tongues, languages, kindreds, and nations, and that from age to age, and from generation to generation (Lecture 3:25).

24. Q—Is the character which God has given of himself uniform?

[Hemidakota]

I believe the answer lies in both lecture 3 and 4.

[Moksha]

I believe the answer lies in both lecture 3 and 4.

Or at least between the Control-C keys and the Control-V keys.

[Mudcat]

Hey why not.

Alright, this was something I was thinking about, and I think this is my stance on the issue now.

The Book of Mormon teaches God could cease to be God.

Hi SC,

I am an Evangelical Christian and I must admit I have a difficult time digesting this statement.

I am taking a bit of a guess here, but I think you seem to be implying that if God sinned he would cease to be God.

I would agree in a theoretical sense, but in a realistic sense, I see no good reason to give grounds that God would sin... so I suppose I am a bit of loss here.

What do you mean exactly when you say "God could cease to be God"?

Regards,

Mudcat

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Hi SC,

I am an Evangelical Christian and I must admit I have a difficult time digesting this statement.

I am taking a bit of a guess here, but I think you seem to be implying that if God sinned he would cease to be God.

I would agree in a theoretical sense, but in a realistic sense, I see no good reason to give grounds that God would sin... so I suppose I am a bit of loss here.

What do you mean exactly when you say "God could cease to be God"?

Regards,

Mudcat

You are correct, it was a theoretical comment. The verse of scripture (Alma 42:22)references the relationship of God's mercy and justice and how they interact. The phrase goes on to say, "the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God." That is if the law is executed but there was no punishment, or there was a punishment but no law attached to the punishment. Tyranny in both cases. Loss of liberty for us. A loss of justice for us and God. Therefore a loss in the perfection of God here. We would not be able to rely on Him. He wouldn't ALWAYS be just, because of that tiny imperfection.

However the great truth is : God will never cease to be God. You are correct God will never sin.

The verse quoted is as follows: But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Edited August 12, 2010 by THIRDpersonviewer

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Hi SC,

I am an Evangelical Christian and I must admit I have a difficult time digesting this statement.

I am taking a bit of a guess here, but I think you seem to be implying that if God sinned he would cease to be God.

I would agree in a theoretical sense, but in a realistic sense, I see no good reason to give grounds that God would sin... so I suppose I am a bit of loss here.

What do you mean exactly when you say "God could cease to be God"?

Regards,

Mudcat

Alma 42:22 from the Book of Mormon

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

I think it is self-explanatory. You are correct, though. It is just in a theoretical sense. The context of the chapter is, a prophet is teaching his son, specifically, about the relationship of justice and mercy.

[RipplecutBuddha]

The notion being discussed obliquely here is that of conseqences for actions. Surely we understand that our actions have consequences. It is a law we are all bound to obey. The verses being discussed merely point out that the very same conditions apply to God the Father as well. His actions have consequences as well, and to the very same extent as ours; good actions have good consequences, and bad actions have bad consequences.

This conclusion is reinforced by the notion of Justice. If Justice can be applied to us by God, can we imagine that God himself is immune to Justice? Do we imagine up to ourselves a God that does not live the very commandments we ourselves must obey?

The commandments we must follow are those that allow us to become as God is, that is, to become the same type of being he is. Why would God give us commandments that allow us to become as he is if he himself had no need to follow them.

The power of the example in the scriptures is belied by the sin being discussed, that of lying. The very act of lying would undo all the power of God were he to commit such a sin.

a) God, by definition, must posess the capacity to sin. God has his agency just as we do.

b)It is through the excercise of his agency that he is God. Because he always excercises his agency righteously, he has all power and all knowlege. Were he to choose to sin, he would lose his perfection, and thus lose the power and knowlege he has.

While it is essential that we understand God posesses the ability to sin, we also must understand how doing so is contrary to the very nature and character of God.

[jayanna]

God ceasing to be God is strictly rhetorical in nature.

We do not at any time actually expect Him to stop being God.

[Javajot]

Ah....if God ceased to be God, who would take His place?

Snow

Probably thinks he would anyway.