Prop 8. and temple recommends


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Seminary: Thank you very much. I think your response was very good. But now my question to you is this: Even if you disagree and believe they are not equal, just as you would place "something of value" making covenants outside of the priesthood authority, do you see the same value to gay people in regards to gay marriage? Not that you would change your defense of marriage, or your beliefs regarding marriage...

If you at least SEE why this is important to us, then that is all I can really ask :). I started a new thread on this subject, so we should probably get back to the OP...

Not that this makes me fully empathetic or understanding ... but just so you know, I have a close cousin who is gay and he is at my house often, helps watch my kids from time to time and even goes to church with us every once in a while. I love him and want the best for him always and I pray that he will be sealed to our shared grandparents so I can continue my relationship with him after this life.

I haven't yet formed a full opinion about gay marriage. The thing that holds me back is that I want all of Heavenly Father's children to have a chance to be in a family that is under the covenant. At least, with an outside-the-temple marriage between a woman and a man there is a chance that they will follow that up with marriage in the temple and seal their family. Gay marriage, in possibly my narrow view, is not a potential step to anything more and therefore not the same as a non-temple marriage between a woman and man. .... I'm not sure ... I'm pondering these things.

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Most of my family is Catholic too. cool! ... "Celebrated" - no. Have I gone to their baptisms and shown love to them, yes. If I really love someone in my family, I would do everything I could to show them the proper way and not give up. I don't want to look back at this life regretting that I could have done something more to pull them out of the spacious building and grab a hold of the iron rod. At the same time, I know it has to be done with love and support and by example. "The best" they can do is to obey the commandments, all can.

Same here. There is no celebration when you see your beloved brothers and sisters take the wrong path that will eventually, shut them out of the eternal kingdom of the FATHER.

What I come to learn lately, those who reject even to live the telestial glory (LAWS) and refuse to give up their sins and acknowledge Jesus Christ, will inherit worlds without any glory at all. This itself is nothing but a tearful moment to see any person to be sent too.

I vehemently disagree with this. I don't use vehemently lightly.

THERE IS BIG CELEBRATION to see somebody baptized - regardless of faith, but most especially Christian.

I was baptized Catholic when I was a few days old. I would hope that if an LDS person knew about it, they would go and CELEBRATE my baptism. My parents baptized me Catholic because it is the church they COMPLETELY BELIEVE is the church of God. Without that baptism, I would not have become Christian and I wouldn't be an LDS today.

And I can testify to you that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me multiple times in my life that I needed to stay in the Catholic church. I finally found out why when I was 30 and another precept was added to my learning - that of the restoration. If I didn't grow up Catholic, there would have been no way I would understand the restoration. It's just the way my brain works.

So, for somebody to say that they cannot CELEBRATE another person's spiritual progression even if it is not the perfect progression that an LDS thinks it should be, it is very... I can't even find the right word... SNOOTY! Shame on you!

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I vehemently disagree with this. I don't use vehemently lightly.

THERE IS BIG CELEBRATION to see somebody baptized - regardless of faith, but most especially Christian.

I was baptized Catholic when I was a few days old. I would hope that if an LDS person knew about it, they would go and CELEBRATE my baptism. My parents baptized me Catholic because it is the church they COMPLETELY BELIEVE is the church of God. Without that baptism, I would not have become Christian and I wouldn't be an LDS today.

And I can testify to you that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me multiple times in my life that I needed to stay in the Catholic church. I finally found out why when I was 30 and another precept was added to my learning - that of the restoration. If I didn't grow up Catholic, there would have been no way I would understand the restoration. It's just the way my brain works.

So, for somebody to say that they cannot CELEBRATE another person's spiritual progression even if it is not the perfect progression that an LDS thinks it should be, it is very... I can't even find the right word... SNOOTY! Shame on you!

I'm sorry. I think the word "celebrate" is too strong. Commemorate, observe, support or something similar is more appropriate in my view. I'm sure there were people at your Catholic baptism that were not Catholic, that were family and possibly not religious at all. You think those people "celebrated" your baptism. How could they if they had no understanding or appreciation of the significance of the event? And yet, they could still be happy for you, happy for your family, have a good time etc. at the event.

Even GaySaint said he could "celebrate" even though he may "disagree" with it. How is that possible? Celebrate and disagree are contradictory feelings. At least I am being real.

I would say it is safe to say that the majority of people that are baptized Catholic do not latter become LDS. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule and in hind sight we can see God's work. After all, most LDS came from religious families of some kind, Catholic or Protestant.

Of your own situation, I am glad you have insight to God's plan for you but you are unique. And I am glad you are part of the fold. For every one like you there may be some that would have hungered for understanding sooner at the age of 15 or 20, whose to say. God works in mysterious ways but once a person is on the path of spiritual progression, the path is narrow and straight. The way a person gets to the path may be winding. Spiritual progression is straight. Preparation for spiritual progression may be varied and even repeated (like it was for me).

Part of the reason to disagree with what GaySaint was suggesting is that I could see where he was heading with this, that if one "celebrates" than she also "approves." If the word was "commemorate" I would have answered differently. If you know how to "celebrate" and "disagree" at the same time, please share. If you can put that into words, that is probably what I already do with family baptisms, but I don't think I would call it celebrate or rejoice or those kinds of words. ... sorry

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I vehemently disagree with this. I don't use vehemently lightly.

THERE IS BIG CELEBRATION to see somebody baptized - regardless of faith, but most especially Christian.

So, for somebody to say that they cannot CELEBRATE another person's spiritual progression even if it is not the perfect progression that an LDS thinks it should be, it is very... I can't even find the right word... SNOOTY! Shame on you!

Boy, this where you NEED TO BACK OFF and learn the power of discernment than your physical emotions. This is more damaging to see your immaturity in the last part of the post – IT IS MORE SHAME ON YOU. Now, if you feel like belittling me, grow up and use some form of maturity and do it in private message or take the curiosity and NOT POSTING as Pam stated.

As judging me, I am convert to the church and a former catholic...:D

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Seminary: Perhaps 'celebrate' was the wrong word, or perhaps I would be 'celebrating' something else, like it has been said, 'celebrating' someone's desire to take steps to become closer to Christ, while 'commemorating' the actual baptism, for example.

I guess I used 'celebrate' because I remember being young, and going to a Catholic event for a member of my family, and having a big party afterward. The party was a 'celebration' - so 'celebrate' was just the first word to pop into my head.

But I do think someone can celebrate the intent, while disagreeing with an action - sure. Baptism in another faith would be just one example. Celebrating a same-sex couple's happiness while disagreeing with what they do in the bedroom could be another.

I never meant to correlate celebration with acceptance. In fact, I think my point was to prove the opposite…

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It is the right word and don't be offended over it by others here. I use the term 'celebrate' as part of acceptance. I not offended if someone told me I was misguided and baptized in the Catholic religion. I would say, "YES! You are right." It comes with humility upon correction. As with sin, I ensure that I make it known everyday to my elder brother, how grateful I am for the His tender mercies for me and my foes, that we have another day to repent.

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Ah yes. I went back to look, and here is what got me started on this line of discussion:

If an LDS member "supports" same sex marriage then, to me, that person either doesn't yet understand the need for covenants or outright rejects the power and need for covenants and therefore, in my mind, would not be considered an active member of the church.

So celebrate was the wrong word, but my point was to show that I believe it is possible to 'support' someone even if you don't agree with every action (as in you would be showing your support by going to a baptism of another faith - even if that was just to support them taking steps to get closer to Christ - even though you don't believe that baptism is entirely correct).

And I think the same principle can be applied to SSM: It is possible to support the couple by maintaining focus on the positives, without necessarily agreeing with their actions.

That said, my own family wouldn't show up to my wedding, so maybe I'm wrong ;). I just see no reason why it CAN'T be done, and have seen many examples of when it HAS been done.

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I'm sorry. I think the word "celebrate" is too strong. Commemorate, observe, support or something similar is more appropriate in my view. I'm sure there were people at your Catholic baptism that were not Catholic, that were family and possibly not religious at all. You think those people "celebrated" your baptism. How could they if they had no understanding or appreciation of the significance of the event? And yet, they could still be happy for you, happy for your family, have a good time etc. at the event.

Even GaySaint said he could "celebrate" even though he may "disagree" with it. How is that possible? Celebrate and disagree are contradictory feelings. At least I am being real.

I would say it is safe to say that the majority of people that are baptized Catholic do not latter become LDS. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule and in hind sight we can see God's work. After all, most LDS came from religious families of some kind, Catholic or Protestant.

Of your own situation, I am glad you have insight to God's plan for you but you are unique. And I am glad you are part of the fold. For every one like you there may be some that would have hungered for understanding sooner at the age of 15 or 20, whose to say. God works in mysterious ways but once a person is on the path of spiritual progression, the path is narrow and straight. The way a person gets to the path may be winding. Spiritual progression is straight. Preparation for spiritual progression may be varied and even repeated (like it was for me).

Part of the reason to disagree with what GaySaint was suggesting is that I could see where he was heading with this, that if one "celebrates" than she also "approves." If the word was "commemorate" I would have answered differently. If you know how to "celebrate" and "disagree" at the same time, please share. If you can put that into words, that is probably what I already do with family baptisms, but I don't think I would call it celebrate or rejoice or those kinds of words. ... sorry

It is COMPLETELY not unique. EVERYBODY goes through it... the journey to eternal life!

Just because you are born LDS, got baptized LDS, went on an LDS mission, got married in the temple and died an active LDS with a temple recommend, doesn't mean you are any better than a boy who was born in the mountains of Mindanao, was brought up by the tribal Tasadays, met a Catholic priest and got baptized Catholic and died a Christian!

EVERY PHASE of that SPIRITUAL progression of the boy IS TO BE CELEBRATED! YES. CELEBRATED! AS IN, HURRRAAAAYYYY!!!!

Remember your Articles.

"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

What's this nonsense that you have to agree to celebrate it? WHAT? I can celebrate my parents' 50th Catholic wedding anniversary with absolute joy without having to give up my stance that their marriage needs to be sealed to be eternal. Only people who think themselves so perfect in their pedestal of LDS snottiness can think it is not worth celebrating!

This is probably my most rebuking post ever. It got me that riled up.

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Ah yes. I went back to look, and here is what got me started on this line of discussion:

So celebrate was the wrong word, but my point was to show that I believe it is possible to 'support' someone even if you don't agree with every action (as in you would be showing your support by going to a baptism of another faith - even if that was just to support them taking steps to get closer to Christ - even though you don't believe that baptism is entirely correct).

And I think the same principle can be applied to SSM: It is possible to support the couple by maintaining focus on the positives, without necessarily agreeing with their actions.

That said, my own family wouldn't show up to my wedding, so maybe I'm wrong ;). I just see no reason why it CAN'T be done, and have seen many examples of when it HAS been done.

I had a child who was civilly married. Did I celebrate at this feast? NO..but, I still show great love for her as my daughter and still to this day, I keep this bond of relationship open. My celebration will come later if she endures, we can be together as a family in the eternities.

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Hemi: But COULD you have without giving up your desire for her to be sealed in the temple? I think so. If this relationship is a stepping stone for your child to avoid sin that will eventually lead her to the temple wouldn't God, in his infinite timeless wisdom celebrate the union?

As you look back on it, do you think choosing your disappointment over the other emotions of the day was worthwhile (if you don’t mind getting personal with me)?

Perhaps we are all missing each other on the definition of 'celebrate.'

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Boy, this where you NEED TO BACK OFF and learn the power of discernment than your physical emotions. This is more damaging to see your immaturity in the last part of the post – IT IS MORE SHAME ON YOU. Now, if you feel like belittling me, grow up and use some form of maturity and do it in private message or take the curiosity and NOT POSTING as Pam stated.

As judging me, I am convert to the church and a former catholic...:D

Power of discernment? Physical emotions? Immaturity?

I am not belittling you. I am telling you how snooty (I can't think of a better word. English is only my 3rd language. Kahilas - there. That's the word I need. Translate that!) you are for thinking that just because somebody is baptized non-LDS you think they are going down the "WRONG PATH".

This is the kind of mindset that made me reject ANY church outside of Catholics. What made me see LDS differently is the attitude of my LDS husband... recognizing that I am Catholic not because I AM WRONG/STUPID/DON'T PRAY/WHATEVER but because that was where God led me!

But then here you are... undoing all that. More power to you, sir!

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Hemi: But COULD you have without giving up your desire for her to be sealed in the temple? I think so. If this relationship is a stepping stone for your child to avoid sin that will eventually lead her to the temple wouldn't God, in his infinite timeless wisdom celebrate the union?

As you look back on it, do you think choosing your disappointment over the other emotions of the day was worthwhile (if you don’t mind getting personal with me)?

Perhaps we are all missing each other on the definition of 'celebrate.'

I still don't celebrate or have changed my opinion since this happened. Being close to her, I gave her an outlook with her life (at that time) for the next few years. I was right on what had happened during that timeframe. But, I do see a bright future for her and as a parent, carry the hope and faith; she will make amends with GOD.

The sin I am looking at is not of convenient of marriage to appease a sexual sin, but, an eternal one of knowing and turning against knowledge received. Is there repentance to this? Yes! But, she must have a desire to seek it first. I will celebrate when I can meet with the Savior over this matter and seek His mercies.

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Hemi, I'm sure there is more to this story that we don't know, but when you say her sin was "knowing and turning against knowledge received" is this solely in regard to getting married outside of the temple? There is a quote on the other thread from Bruce R. that YOU posted stating that marrying outside of the temple "...are proper and honorable and there is no sin attached to the relationship that results from them."

So I don't understand how you resolve these two statements, unless there is more involved (which you don't have to say... haha).

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If one looked at the eternal perspective then yes. They are only bound by that law only (the world) and not of GOD. And yes! I know that GOD still honors this form of marriage and structure of a married couple. But GS, in the latter end of going back to our former world, are they "still married" in heaven?

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But Hemi: I still do see value in such a marriage, even from that point of view, if and only if to exclude one from the sin of fornication. Even though they won't carry the marriage into the next life, they won't carry the sin either. So although they will be like they were never married, they will also be like they never committed that sin, which is, at least, a good thing.

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DISCLAIMER: I see life differently than most and not advocating church policy or doctrine here but my own opinion here (noting the brethren do frequent this board).

Seeing mortal life is no more than 30-75 minutes of heavenly time, the answer would be still – no.

Sin or no sin, it is still not eternal. Now, if this civil union is a measure to bring repentance and within a year of reconciling their sins, then seek this sacred ceremony, this would bring happiness (more like tears) to my soul. One less couple who grip that the devils cannot rejoice over.

GS, I do “fear and tremble” over my own salvation at any sin that is left unturned in this life. The greater the knowledge one receives, the greater the sin one stands to repent. Like the Savior, who is my exemplar, I place myself in a constant reminder in changing my character daily to better myself before GOD. There are specific few people in my life and on this board I do admire and seek to take the best of part of their character and seek to add it to my soul. I do seek to please GOD (heavenly parents I do call them at times) and His son and not the world.

This is my line of reasoning. My children know how I think…even my youngest who came to seek a special blessing under my hand before GOD. We cannot turn to the left or to right on a narrow path which leads to the Tree of Life (see Lehi’s vision of the Tree of Life). What most people don’t realize, the path is broad at the beginning but become so narrow at the end before one can sit under it and receive eternal love and true joy.

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Thank you Hemi.

If your disclaimer is correct, I certainly wish one of the bretheren would contact me :) I have a lot of questions I would love to ask if I had one alone for 20 minutes, haha.

Of course, I realize they have better things to do, but I'm just putting that out there - ha!

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You can contact them if you like...but remember, not all of us think alike. :lol:

GS, you will be surprise the humility level of these brothers do have and love for the members of the church...and what I have already seen, your sincerity in seeking answers much as I do, is given to having a treasured dialog.

To let you know, you have opened a door for me in asking for something that has brought more understanding about our development and what is carried forth into this life: the WHY(s) and the HOW(s). I would never thought of seeking an answer for this.

Anyway, I must leave now. I have received something I need to research over tonight. Thanks again my brother.

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It is COMPLETELY not unique. EVERYBODY goes through it... the journey to eternal life!

Just because you are born LDS, got baptized LDS, went on an LDS mission, got married in the temple and died an active LDS with a temple recommend, doesn't mean you are any better than a boy who was born in the mountains of Mindanao, was brought up by the tribal Tasadays, met a Catholic priest and got baptized Catholic and died a Christian!

EVERY PHASE of that SPIRITUAL progression of the boy IS TO BE CELEBRATED! YES. CELEBRATED! AS IN, HURRRAAAAYYYY!!!!

Remember your Articles.

"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

What's this nonsense that you have to agree to celebrate it? WHAT? I can celebrate my parents' 50th Catholic wedding anniversary with absolute joy without having to give up my stance that their marriage needs to be sealed to be eternal. Only people who think themselves so perfect in their pedestal of LDS snottiness can think it is not worth celebrating!

This is probably my most rebuking post ever. It got me that riled up.

Why do you feel you have to rebuke me when I am just defending my choice of words? I totally agree with everything you say in this post ... so, you didn't rebuke me one bit, if that's what you think you did. You can celebrate whatever you want, I never said you couldn't and I don't have any power or influence over you anyways if I did. You missed the point and are taking things out of context and focusing on words that obviously have different meaning for you than for me.

I was comparing the ordinance of baptism to baptisms not done with priesthood power and the sealing in the temple with other forms of marriage to say that there is a difference. If you want to tell me that the baptism without Priesthood authority is the same as with it and should be celebrated equally, go ahead, that is your right to do so. I disagree with that idea not as an "LDS" person but as one who believes in the actual power of God. If you want to call the belief in a higher power and authority, "snotty", it doesn't bother me at all, I've heard worse. And if you think that believing temple marriage is more powerful in it's earthly effects because of the covenant through the Priesthood power than any other form of marriage is "LDS snootiness" ... that's okay too, you aren't going to pull me down with that, I still think covenants add to this life, not just bind something in the future.

"I, the Lord am bound when ye do what I say, when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." ... the Lord has told us to be baptized by those who have the proper authority, any other way carries no promise. ... but go ahead and call it the same and treat it the same and celebrate it the same, that's your right. to be consistent, I hope you celebrate me saying "praise Jesus" Praise Jesus! did you celebrate that? ... good, because who knows, that could be just as meaningful as a two day old getting baptized.

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Semantics is a ridiculous argument. It can really sever relationships if not watched. I was once told that 60 to 70 percent of all arguments come from semantics. I want to even say more than that, but I cann't remember for 100 percent sure.

Anyways, I hope what was seen from both sides, was that there was a misunderstanding of words, at which there was offense taken. Ultimately, one or the other started to attack a principle of belief.

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Article of faith #11 We claim the privilege of worshiping almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men this same privilege.(that is a bad/rough paraphrase)

I don't think the problem was in the misinterpreted words, but in the reactions to them, where some not very nice things were said. Things that attacked others beliefs. This will then put one on the defensive unless he or she realizes the reality of the 11th article of faith or the 1 amendment of the consitiution.

This puts us in a spirit of contention, of which the Lord counsels, teaches, warns, and denounces, and rebukes, and condemns: He who has the spirit of contention is of the devil.

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Im going to make this short and sweet...

2. If you find yourself promoting same sex marriage, at what point do you become ineligible or a temple recommend because of this temple recommend question:

"Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?"

Better question to ask: at what point, when a member actively supports the right of same-sex marriage, can they honestly say they still honor and sustain the Prophet, First Presidency, and Council of the 12? There's been more than enough concise talk from the GA's to know that we need to oppose legalized same-sex marriage.

Sorry if I posted something that's already been covered- I don't have enough time to read through the whole thread.

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