How Does LDS Church resolve conflicts with the Bible ???


CHowell
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Specifics. I would like to know specific information on the questions I posed. I daresay you won't find lengthy or detailed passages. There is general information about families and raising good children and being good parents. There are references to Jesus having read scriptures, but a directly instruction for the rest of us? And how about administering the earthly affairs of a modern-day church?

My point is, you can't find everything in the Bible. It is a great starting point, and yes, it's full of doctrine, but it's not a complete guidebook.

The fact is, we don't have the original texts, so there's no way to confirm the accuracy. We are basing accuracy claims on the information given to us by those who made the translations -- of course they're claiming near-perfect accuracy.

I'll be happy to provide you with specifics at lunch or when I am done work.

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How do you then resolve the conflicts that the Bible seems to have with itself? For instance, in John 1:18 it says "No man hath seen God at any time". But in Exodus 33:11 it says, "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

I will address this in a bit. I want to careful look at exactly what you say as to not give you an incomplete perspective.

Also, the four gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke and John) don't line up exactly chronologically.

I would assume there are countless other examples. So to say that the Bible is 100% the word of God would make God seem contradictory or at the very least, confused. We know He is not. Hence our belief as stated in the LDS 13 Articles of Faith, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." In no way is this slighting the Bible as not being an inspired work. It's simply stating a fact.

God didn't write the Bible. Men did. And men (and women) are imperfect. It's as simple as that.

Do you expect them to ? Have you looked at the history behind the Gospels, why they were written the significance of who they were written to. I have a ton to say on this. So I'll get back to this post and Don't want you to think I am ignoring you.

You are correct God didn't write the Bible, but God is perfect and under God's perfect inspiration man wrote the Bible. Therefore you cannot say that The Bible is not the way God intended it to be. If the Bible is the way God intended ti to be then it is the word of God.

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I certainly would never make the mistake of thinking that I am God, nor would I believe that you should ever put any man above God in your life. What I am doing is challenging your understand and your interpretation because God my heavenly father as suggested to me that this isn't right. Now how can we both pray to God and get conflicting answers ? We can't God's to perfect to tell me one thing and say it's right and tell you another things and say that I am wrong. I am merely seeking to clarify and understand.

With your arguement we are both wrong. I would never dream of rubbishing your relationship with Heavenly Father but you chose to with mine. If you receive the answer its wrong then obey that. You are trying to force me to be something that I cannot be without disobeying God.

This is a pretty damming attack. Why are you getting all personal on Christians ? Do you have any idea where my faith is ? Do you have any idea what I believe or what my relationship with the Heavenly father is. More or less you've just said that I don't have one, and I am worshiping the Bible like all other Christians. To quote yourself.... "Who made you God and gave you this insight" ?

You told me what I must believe, when you did that you took a place only God can take. You gave me the insight when you informed me the Bible was 100% and revelation from God meant nothing. If you are willing to tell me that the Bible is 100% and my relationship with God means nothing then you are being entirely personal

Make no mistake about it. The Bible is 100% the word of God, the errors are in the translations between Greek and English. If you can't accept the Bible as 100% the world of God then you must reject it in it's entirety.

I grew up around mainstream Christianity and quite frankly I don't believe much of it.

Again the personal attacks. Why ?

Because you told me what I should believe instead of telling me what you believe and sharing ideas, at that point the discussion becomes personal. With your statement you chose to rubbish God and right now I don't like that. Fact is I don't need to reconcile a bean of Bible doctrine with anything

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With your arguement we are both wrong. I would never dream of rubbishing your relationship with Heavenly Father but you chose to with mine. If you receive the answer its wrong then obey that. You are trying to force me to be something that I cannot be without disobeying God.

I am not trying to force you to do anything. You're free to do what you want to worship what you want. That's the beauty of Free will.

You told me what I must believe, when you did that you took a place only God can take. You gave me the insight when you informed me the Bible was 100% and revelation from God meant nothing.

I never said that revelation from God meant nothing, So I think what you're doing is you're getting upset and accusing me of things I didn't say based on your worldview and your misinterpretation of what I was saying. Revelation from God does mean a lot. I have never received revelation, motivation, or any information from God that was inconsistent with his word, the Holy Bible. If anything the things God is saying to me are so closely bound to scripture.

If you are willing to tell me that the Bible is 100% and my relationship with God means nothing then you are being entirely personal

I do believe that the Bible is 100%. I don't need God or the Bible I need both together. Sometimes God reveals things to me through the Bible, sometimes God reveals things in my life at a point based on some scripture I've read or I am about to read. I find it absolutely astonishing that God can work in my life and then back it up with his word when I read the Bible.

I see reading the Bible as meeting an old friend a Holy friend, a father, for coffee. He tells me about himself and teaches through his Word. I go and apply it. But just because I am not reading the Bible when I pray doesn't mean that what God says to me in prayer or answer there of is any less relevant.

Why do you feel that you need revelation from God or the Bible ? Yes God can most certainly act in your life without the Bible talk and have a relationship with you, however that doesn't mean we don't need his Word.

I grew up around mainstream Christianity and quite frankly I don't believe much of it.

Really ?? that's tragic what parts don't you believe and why ?

Because you told me what I should believe instead of telling me what you believe and sharing ideas, at that point the discussion becomes personal. With your statement you chose to rubbish God and right now I don't like that. Fact is I don't need to reconcile a bean of Bible doctrine with anything

I merely asked the question & I have MANY more where I believe the Bible conflicts with the the LDS faith. I have to believe the Bible because it is the Word of God. But to say that you don't need to reconcile a bean of Bible doctrine with anything....is troubling why not ?

This would seem to suggest that the LDS church wants to distance itself from the Bible and not rely on the Bible as the Word of God....Is this true ?

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Not true, because if you can't accept the Bible as 100% accurate and the Word of God. I highly doubt that God would allow his word to progress without his continuing inspiration and guidance. To accept this one must accept that the word of God was "once" divinely inspired but isn't anymore. The whole Bible throughout it's entire processes has to be inspired and continually inspired. One cannot make the argument that only parts of the Bible are inspired, if you make this argument then you must accept that only parts of the Bible are inspired by God and therefore the whole book isn't inspired. Therefore if the whole word of God isn't inspired then it must have mistakes. God's word cannot have mistakes because God is a perfect deity.

Therefore you're left with little other choice but to fully embrace it or fully reject it.

Why throw the baby out with the bath water? Yes, God is perfect. His word is perfect. But the Bible isn't all about God. It's also about men and their fumblings and blunders. And how they overcome those mistakes (some do and some don't) And it wasn't written BY God. It is a book written about God by men. The parts where men are writing about what God has told them or done speak of a perfect, all knowing God. They teach us of God and his ways so that we can hopefully apply them to our lives and return to Him. But men on this earth all have different perceptions. We are all unique. Some of those perceptions the Bible authors have written about may be wrong or conflict or were simply written from their own personal perspective. It doesn't make the Bible bad or wrong. But it is an imperfect and perhaps inaccurate book. That doesn't make God imperfect. It simply means God allows men to use their free agency and that He doesn't always direct us like robots in everything we do.

Is the Bible inspired? Absolutely. Were the prophets of the Bible his true prophets? Yes indeed! Can we learn about God and His will for us from the Bible? Of course! But is every word of the Bible His word? No. They were words of men. Good men. Men of God. Inspired but imperfect men.

One book I recently read is "The Year of Living Biblically" by A.J Jacobs. Amazon.com: The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the

Pretty entertaining and insightful book. I think the point of the book is that so many people these days hang every scrap of their faith on "The Bible". But there is so much of the Bible that if taken and applied to our lives today would be pretty silly. This is not to say that the truths about God in the Bible aren't still true. But that it was a book written thousands of years ago. Man's understanding of life and what God expects of us has refined and changed over the years. Some aspects of human hearts and spiritual lives are and should be the same. Some parts of the Bible are eternal truths and applicable now. But our outward, external lives are different than they were thousands of years ago. So in this way, much of the Bible is irrelevant to us today. This doesn't make God irrelevant. Our job is to read and search the Bible to find the parts that speak to our hearts, that instruct and teach us priciples to live by that will help us draw closer to God. And realize that the rest of the Bible is a historical account to be read an appreciated but not neccessarily lived by literally right now.

And this is also why modern day revelation, through a prophet- currently Thomas S. Monson- relevant to us in 2010 is so vital.

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Continuing on in my questions of how and what the LDS church believes compared to what the Bible teaches us.

Again I found this on the Mormon.org website.

“Will I go to heaven?”

Yes! God will judge all men fairly and reward them appropriately with a place within His kingdom

This is very troubling to me.

1. What is meant by this ?

2. Can people have higher places in heaven ?

3. How is it thought that God determines this ?

The Bible teaches that men will all be judged fairly and no man can be saved by works so that nobody can boast about their status in Heaven.

Even if one would argue that the Bible is misinterpreted or changed or whatever. Knowing how evil and wicked, and self serving man kind is. Surely if we changed the Bible for our own motivations. One would have thought to leave this in so that I can know that I have to do works to improve my standing in the Kingdom of heaven. This seems like a big one to me. Yet nowhere am I instructed to do works, (This next part is important). TO IMPROVE my standing in the Kingdom. We are told that we should do works in service to Christ because we LOVE God and God's children. But not to earn ourselves a reward in heaven.

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I am not trying to force you to do anything. You're free to do what you want to worship what you want. That's the beauty of Free will.

Then maybe start saying I believe instead of terms like YOU MUST.

I never said that revelation from God meant nothing, So I think what you're doing is you're getting upset and accusing me of things I didn't say based on your worldview and your misinterpretation of what I was saying. Revelation from God does mean a lot. I have never received revelation, motivation, or any information from God that was inconsistent with his word, the Holy Bible. If anything the things God is saying to me are so closely bound to scripture.

Again you used the phrase YOU MUST if you didn't intend it fair enough, but today I am rattled enough with life in general that you using it hurt me. When you made that one post you phrased it in such a way that completely rejected everything that is dear to me.

Why do you feel that you need revelation from God or the Bible ? Yes God can most certainly act in your life without the Bible talk and have a relationship with you, however that doesn't mean we don't need his Word.

I love the Bible deeply its hugely sacred. I don't however believe its word should replace HIM

Really ?? that's tragic what parts don't you believe and why ?

Usually starts with the answer to the question to What is God. I don't believe God was irresponsible in the Garden of Eden, I don't believe in the basic interpretation of the atonement. Lack of one baptism or consistent set of doctrines. Like I said most of it:) If I wasn't LDS I certainly wouldn't be Christian.

I merely asked the question & I have MANY more where I believe the Bible conflicts with the the LDS faith. I have to believe the Bible because it is the Word of God. But to say that you don't need to reconcile a bean of Bible doctrine with anything....is troubling why not ?

I actually usually do a good job of reconciling it, but why should I have too? Why only use a small portion of scripture? Why restrict God? Ultimately you have chosen to interpret scripture a certain way, thats fine but I prefer to have God interpret His Word. I prefer to hear what his Prophet has to say about the Bible this month.

This would seem to suggest that the LDS church wants to distance itself from the Bible and not rely on the Bible as the Word of God....Is this true ?

Quite the reverse the depth of doctrine and understanding with the BIBLE is a thousand times what a mainstream Christian can ever hope to achieve.

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CHowell, when you're ready to stop trolling, you might find a more welcoming response.

Trolling eh ? Is that what you feel like I am doing ? This is interesting why is it, that people get upset by the questioning of LDS faith ? I think that if we don't question our faith, ask questions of God, have people challenge us, how do we really know what we believe and why we believe it. If we don't do this then don't why just have blind faith ?

Suppose I was interested in joining the LDS church, but I find it conflicts with what I believe in from a strong Christian up bringing. You've effectively just said we'll welcome you when you stop challenging things.

I am not looking for trouble...I am legitimately asking questions that I find challenging and couldn't find the answers in other resources. So who to come to, but the people of the faith. As representatives you've basically said, stop.

I've listened and reflected on everything and anything someone has said. Which has driven more questions ? How is that wrong ?

So I have 1 final question. If the LDS church really believes that their way is the right way, and other Christian faiths are mistaken. Shouldn't you be interested in saving me ? In helping me ? In answering my questions ?

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To say that there is a conflict in the Bible is to say that there is a mistake in God's Word. To say that there's a mistake in God's word you have to admit that God either stopped guiding the Bible or made a mistake.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the conflict you seem to think you've found is a conflict of your worldview and understanding of theology ?

I think we need to back up in this conversation. You seem to have swallowed the elephant whole, but are straining at the gnats. We should bring the conversation back to asking ourselves who wrote the Bible. Did God write it, or did men, inspired of God write it? Since the time of the original writings, how many times have the manuscripts been edited, transcribed, or translated? You say you use the NIV version, but how do you reconcile the differences, not only in words but also in meaning, between that version and other versions which are widely accepted by various Christian churches? Which one is most accurate, and how do you know that? If they are all true, and the Word of God, why are they different? They can't all be 100% accurate since they contain differences.

I will be gone for a day or so, but you can feel free to address these questions and I'm sure others will join the discussion.

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A link to inconsistencies in the Bible-

Inconsistencies

I post this not to challenge your faith, but to point out the imperfections of the Bible. Please read the "introduction" page. It has some really good points to make about our attitudes toward the Bible. This isn't an LDS website. I don't even know who innvista is but what they say rings true, especially this statement-

"There are Christians who are aware of the inconsistencies. They do not place the book on a high pedestal, yet gain the message it contains. The challenge to search for truth lies before you. "

I'm not dissing the Bible. It contains the keys to our very spiritual survival. But it's only one part of the recipe. We need to be selective and objective as we read it and search it out for truth. And then realize that if God loves us He won't leave us with only this awkward, handicapped version of His will for us. He has given us modern prophets and modern scripture to add to the mix to give us a complete guide back to Him.

Edited by carlimac
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Why throw the baby out with the bath water? Yes, God is perfect. His word is perfect. But the Bible isn't all about God. It's also about men and their fumblings and blunders. And how they overcome those mistakes (some do and some don't) And it wasn't written BY God. It is a book written about God by men. The parts where men are writing about what God has told them or done speak of a perfect, all knowing God. They teach us of God and his ways so that we can hopefully apply them to our lives and return to Him. But men on this earth all have different perceptions. We are all unique. Some of those perceptions the Bible authors have written about may be wrong or conflict or were simply written from their own personal perspective. It doesn't make the Bible bad or wrong. But it is an imperfect and perhaps inaccurate book. That doesn't make God imperfect. It simply means God allows men to use their free agency and that He doesn't always direct us like robots in everything we do.

Is the Bible inspired? Absolutely. Were the prophets of the Bible his true prophets? Yes indeed! Can we learn about God and His will for us from the Bible? Of course! But is every word of the Bible His word? No. They were words of men. Good men. Men of God. Inspired but imperfect men.

One book I recently read is "The Year of Living Biblically" by A.J Jacobs. Amazon.com: The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the…

Pretty entertaining and insightful book. I think the point of the book is that so many people these days hang every scrap of their faith on "The Bible". But there is so much of the Bible that if taken and applied to our lives today would be pretty silly. This is not to say that the truths about God in the Bible aren't still true. But that it was a book written thousands of years ago. Man's understanding of life and what God expects of us has refined and changed over the years. Some aspects of human hearts and spiritual lives are and should be the same. Some parts of the Bible are eternal truths and applicable now. But our outward, external lives are different than they were thousands of years ago. So in this way, much of the Bible is irrelevant to us today. This doesn't make God irrelevant. Our job is to read and search the Bible to find the parts that speak to our hearts, that instruct and teach us priciples to live by that will help us draw closer to God. And realize that the rest of the Bible is a historical account to be read an appreciated but not neccessarily lived by literally right now.

And this is also why modern day revelation, through a prophet- currently Thomas S. Monson- relevant to us in 2010 is so vital.

How do you decide which parts are Man's word and which words are God's how does the LDS, firstly know and secondly differentiate between the two ?

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Hidden

To say that there is a conflict in the Bible is to say that there is a mistake in God's Word. To say that there's a mistake in God's word you have to admit that God either stopped guiding the Bible or made a mistake.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the conflict you seem to think you've found is a conflict of your worldview and understanding of theology ?

The writers of the Bible books were not infallible. One obvious conflict is in the way Judas died. God knows exactly how Judas died, but that didn't get passed along clearly.

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I think we need to back up in this conversation. You seem to have swallowed the elephant whole, but are straining at the gnats. We should bring the conversation back to asking ourselves who wrote the Bible. Did God write it, or did men, inspired of God write it? Since the time of the original writings, how many times have the manuscripts been edited, transcribed, or translated? You say you use the NIV version, but how do you reconcile the differences, not only in words but also in meaning, between that version and other versions which are widely accepted by various Christian churches? Which one is most accurate, and how do you know that? If they are all true, and the Word of God, why are they different? They can't all be 100% accurate since they contain differences.

I will be gone for a day or so, but you can feel free to address these questions and I'm sure others will join the discussion.

We should bring the conversation back to asking ourselves who wrote the Bible. Did God write it, or did men, inspired of God write it? Since the time of the original writings, how many times have the manuscripts been edited, transcribed, or translated?

Defiantly men inspired by God wrote the Bible. You'll get no argument from me there. Furthermore that men and women are imperfect and capable of making mistakes. AGAIN no argument there. Firstly The Bible isn't translated time and time and time again, as some would believe. Translations are related directly back to the original texts.

This argument seems related around the fact that, the Bible was Inspired when it was written, however has since no longer been inspired and therefore God didn't have his hand in the modern day Bible, therefore we can't trust the Bible as it's translated today.

So if we can't trust the Bible as it's translated today Then why does the LDS refer to SOME scripture and not other scripture ? Is that some scripture is still valid while other isn't ? Again I 'll ask the question how is this determined ?

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Unfortunately, i'm going to have to agree with Wingnut's assessment here. CHowell, if you are really interested in discussion, i would appreciate it if you would address my post #40. You seem to be jumping around a lot and not really staying on topic here. Also you're responding to the most argumentative/emotional posts. This leads me to believe you are here to argue rather than discuss. Again, if you really are interested in discussion, please respond to post #40.

Regards.

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So I have 1 final question. If the LDS church really believes that their way is the right way, and other Christian faiths are mistaken. Shouldn't you be interested in saving me ? In helping me ? In answering my questions ?

I can't save you. You're responsible for your own salvation. I can help you. But I'm not interested in helping someone find the truth who is only interested in arguing with me.

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Sorry everyone had a crap week, should be less argumentative.

CHowell I really struggle with people who come into my life presume to tell me what I should believe without bothering to find our about our major basis of belief. Just a read of the 13 Articles of Faith would have answered many of the questions you asked.

We can't convert you none of us have that power, that is between you and God. However if you think LDS do not reverence the bible you are very sadly mistaken. We understand it in greater detail than any other group because of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and our Prophets. Not to mention the other books of scripture. How can someone understand things when they only have a small portion of God's words?

Sometimes I am just at a loss as to why someone would want to live with only part of God's word.

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I noticed you didn't answer my question. I would be really interested to know the answer. Do you believe as the Bible says that Adam and Eve did not receive a

knowledge of good or evil until they partook of the fruit?

Absolutely I believe that they had no knowledge of Good & Evil before they partook of the fruit.

If so, what knowledge was it they possessed that would have allowed them to procreate?

I think you're assuming here that they had no knowledge. Knowledge in and of it self I don't think is inheritently good or bad, of course they had knowledge, Adam walked with God, it's reasonable to assume that God was teaching Adam. Adam named the animals.

Also, i have some other questions based on the underlying/implied argument that God did not intend for the fall to happen.

1. How is that even possible if God knows the end from the beginning as declared in Isaiah 46:9-10? I have a hard time believing God could possibly be blindsided by that.

I would suggest that the Scripture is 100% right on here. I don't believe for a second that God was blindsided by anything. I believe that God gave man free will and permitted Sin to happen. He allowed us to turn away from God, which was an ability and a freedom in God that we had before the great fall because it was clearly exercised in the great fall, which also stands to reason then they had the knowledge required to turn away from God. God didn't make them do it, He didn't cause the sin, but he knew before man was on the earth man would sin.

2. Why would God even put the tree of knowledge of good and evil there in the first place if he did not intend the fall?

God knew man would fall. He didn't want it to happen, he didn't make it happen. The problem I have with this supposition is that it assumes that God intends for us to sin, and/or commit transgressions against him. I can't accept this.

3. Why did God permit the serpent to be in the garden knowing it would tempt Eve?

Because God is a loving father, if you had a child and you put the child in a plastic bubble and never allow anything bad to come to then and face them. Are you really giving them free will ?

4. Why was Jesus foreordained as our Savior from "before the foundation of the world" as in 1 Peter 1:19-20 if the fall wasn't part of the plan?

I would have to say here God is all knowing, and didn't plan for the sin but knew the sin was going to happen and therefore had a response already prepared.

Thank you for your time and patience.

No problem. Good questions.
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I can't save you. You're responsible for your own salvation. I can help you. But I'm not interested in helping someone find the truth who is only interested in arguing with me.

If you believe the truth, and I believe the truth....And their can only be 1 truth, how do we arrived at it without argument, or debate ? Should I merely abandon my position ? How then can I be sure that you're not blind and leading me and we'll both fall into the ditch ?

The problem I have with your argument and your abandonment of me is this. You believe I am wrong, and you're truly serving God therefore you tell me that I am wrong. I believe you're wrong and I believe I am truly serving God. Paul & Christ called us to be Christ like, well Paul went and argued and debated people in the Synagogues until they through him out and attempted to kill him.

I love you enough and I don't really know you. That I am willing to debate you all through the night. If you're merely going to throw me out of the Synagogue which one of us is really serving God ?

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Living Prophets who receive revelation directly from God and Jesus Christ. Those are huge advantages for us. You should try it sometime.

But here's the problem... You're accepting the living Prophets word. Why does a living Prophet have to tell you this. All believers in Christ receive the Holy Spirit and are in communion with God. Everyone is capable of direct revelation from God.

The Prophet is a man and is quite capable of making mistakes. So how can one be sure that he doesn't mistakenly misunderstand the revelation from God and pass on bad information?

The short answer, is if you believe that the Bible has mistakes in it because man wrote it, then you have to accept that this Prophet can mistakenly misunderstand the what parts of the Bible are God's word and man's word.

Even with direct Revelation from God, which we're all capable of, and can receive daily because of the Holy Spirit, we can still mistakenly misunderstand God's Revelation because we're Human and imperfect.

Do you really want to trust that you haven't or your prophet hasn't mistakenly misunderstood what parts of God's Word are God's and which part aren't. Or do you want to just accept the Bible as 100% God's word ?

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B

Do you really want to trust that you haven't or your prophet hasn't mistakenly misunderstood what parts of God's Word are God's and which part aren't. Or do you want to just accept the Bible as 100% God's word ?

Which is precisely why we have everything. Personal Revelation, Scripture plus a Prophet of God provide us with our three witnesses. We have checks, balances and order. That is why we have the whole of the available truth.

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