How Does LDS Church resolve conflicts with the Bible ???


CHowell
 Share

Recommended Posts

This is what the Bible says.

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1Peter1:18-20)

what do they teach about this? If Adam and Even had not fall, then the foreordained Christ before the foundation of the world was not necessary and did not make any sense. Why would God foreordain a Christ before the creation of the world if the fall of Adam and Eve were not a part of His plan?

Faith_Grace

I would also add this;

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 402
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Short answer to the OP title....The LDS Church does not recognize any conflicts between the Bible and what it teaches as doctrine. Otherwise, it would not use the Bible and recognize it as sacred scripture.

However...it is clear there are conflicts between what the LDS Church teaches as biblical doctrine, and what other religions teach as biblical doctrine. This is not an unexpected situation, nor is it a problem from the LDS perspective.

Allow me to quote an article of faith; We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own concience, and allow all men the same, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I understand that people outside the LDS Church will see doctrinal conflicts between what the LDS teaches as biblical doctrine and what they believe the Bible says. That is to be expected, since that person is not part of the LDS Church. The point is that each of us, regardless of the specific area of Christianity to which we adhere, is operating solely on the universal principle of faith. Not one of us can prove beyond argument that our perspective is absolutely correct. Conflicts of belief will always exist so long as we are free to choose what to believe in our hearts and minds.

Edited by RipplecutBuddha
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Faith_Grace

I would also add this;

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Thanks

Soninme,

You add this to make the same point, right? or a different one? I'm a little confused.

To me, this is also to say that God knew Adam and Even would sin, and He was determined to save them and their children, so He prepared Christ before hand to save the fallen mankind. The fall of Adam and Even was still the in plan before the world was created.

Am I missing something again?:confused:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Soninme,

You add this to make the same point, right? or a different one? I'm a little confused.

To me, this is also to say that God knew Adam and Even would sin, and He was determined to save them and their children, so He prepared Christ before hand to save the fallen mankind. The fall of Adam and Even was still the in plan before the world was created.

Am I missing something again?:confused:

Yes, you are missing something.

I grew up devout Catholic. Now I'm LDS. So, I "understand" both thinking. And there's really not much different between the two on the Creation story beyond the premortal existence and the Trinity.

Basically I can sum it up to you as follows:

Catholic Teaching:

* God is omniscient. Therefore, He knew Adam and Eve will fall. He doesn't want Adam and Eve to fall therefore, the fall was against his Will - by virtue of free agency, hence a sin. But because He is omniscient - he prepared the way for Adam and Eve and their posterity to come back to God through Jesus' Atonement because God is merciful and just. But, if Adam and Eve did not fall, they and their posterity would have enjoyed paradise all the days of their lives - which is a moot point because God already knows they will fall.

LDS Teaching:

* God is omiscient. The fall is part of the Plan to bring man to perfection. Therefore, God purposely gave two opposing commandments - for Adam and Eve to exercise free will and put man in the fallen state for their posterity to learn and grow. The fall, therefore, is not against God's Will but was necessary for man because the Plan cannot move forward without man's free agency. God cannot impose his Will upon Man, therefore, He cannot will them to fall. Jesus Atonement is part of the Plan because God is merciful and just.

So, at first glance, it seems like it is drastically different. But, for all intents and purposes, they are not. Because... GOD IS OMNISCIENT. That's the key here. Because, even when going by Catholic Teaching, God still chose Adam and Eve to be born in Eden even when He knew they would fall. So, in a way, God's purpose for the creation is one and the same regardless of which teaching you go by.

So, it's basically the same discussion as who came first the chicken or the egg... it doesn't matter.

P.S. Both Catholic and LDS Teaching can be supported by the Book of Genesis. The only reason LDS takes a firm stand on the LDS Teaching is because of 2 Nephi and the Book of Moses - both of which are not in the Bible.

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

anatess,

Thank you so much, now I understand why Soninme add that quote, and some Catholic teachings. It does make sense. And I understand.

But if I go by Catholic teaching on the creation, I'd wonder why did God create Adam and Eve? Why did He want to create something that go against His will and then offer His only begotten Son to save them? Why? What does Catholic say about the purpose of God's creation?

And if Adam and Eve did not eat the fruit, which was the God's will, according to the Catholic teaching, they would not know good and evil, so they would not be as gods. Then they, and all of us would still live int the paradise, like the dolls...And originally, God did not plan to let us become like gods?

It's really great that you can understand and explain the different teachings. I love the way you explain the differences.

If you have time, could you kindly explain me what would catholic say to my questions on the purpose of the creation. I might sound silly, but I'm really curious.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (Genesis 3:22-24)

What does Catholic say about this? It's like a turning point, now we know good and evil, but we could not reach the tree of life and live forever, we have to work for it, in this life to get the eternal life. What a shame Adam and Eve did not eat the fruit from both trees!!

To me, it sounds like they did not eat the fruit from the tree of life on purpose, or the Lord purposefully came after they ate the fruit from the tree of wisdom, and before they can eat the fruit from the tree of life. If God really did not want them to know good and evil, I'm sure He can easily prevent it from happening. But He just let it happen, and it has to be a sin, and they have to work for the eternal life, and well, without God's grace, no matter how hard they or we work, they/we can not have eternal life. What a perfect plan.

I'm sorry, I hope you are not too confused about what I'm saying...I can even make myself confused sometimes...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

anatess,

Thank you so much, now I understand why Soninme add that quote, and some Catholic teachings. It does make sense. And I understand.

But if I go by Catholic teaching on the creation, I'd wonder why did God create Adam and Eve? Why did He want to create something that go against His will and then offer His only begotten Son to save them? Why? What does Catholic say about the purpose of God's creation?

And if Adam and Eve did not eat the fruit, which was the God's will, according to the Catholic teaching, they would not know good and evil, so they would not be as gods. Then they, and all of us would still live int the paradise, like the dolls...And originally, God did not plan to let us become like gods?

It's really great that you can understand and explain the different teachings. I love the way you explain the differences.

If you have time, could you kindly explain me what would catholic say to my questions on the purpose of the creation. I might sound silly, but I'm really curious.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (Genesis 3:22-24)

What does Catholic say about this? It's like a turning point, now we know good and evil, but we could not reach the tree of life and live forever, we have to work for it, in this life to get the eternal life. What a shame Adam and Eve did not eat the fruit from both trees!!

To me, it sounds like they did not eat the fruit from the tree of life on purpose, or the Lord purposefully came after they ate the fruit from the tree of wisdom, and before they can eat the fruit from the tree of life. If God really did not want them to know good and evil, I'm sure He can easily prevent it from happening. But He just let it happen, and it has to be a sin, and they have to work for the eternal life, and well, without God's grace, no matter how hard they or we work, they/we can not have eternal life. What a perfect plan.

I'm sorry, I hope you are not too confused about what I'm saying...I can even make myself confused sometimes...

Faith_Grace, I love that you are asking these questions. It is really a cool thing to understand where everyone else is coming from. Because, the answer to this question to a Catholic is the same for a Protestant - and most, if not all, Christian religions outside of the LDS church.

But, I have to give you a disclaimer. I have to shed everything I know as an LDS to be able to answer this in a clearly untainted Catholic background - it's kinda hard to go back to what I "used to know" to "what I know now" so I might miss a few things here and there.

The Catholic belief is that God creates both body and soul at birth. There is no pre-mortal existence. Also, man is a different "species" than God... just like a dog is different from a tree.

So from those starting point, a Catholic may then ask, Why did God create me? You will hear the following answers from many Christians which may touch a little bit on the "truth" (to Catholics) but not quite:

1.) God made man to glorify Him.

Well, although there's a little bit of truth in it, this cannot be the reason. Yes, we are to glorify God and it is His will that we do so, but that cannot be the reason why we were created because then that would make God either an egomaniac or an incomplete diety who can only be God if he has us to glorify and praise Him.

2.) God made man to test us.

Although there's truth to this also, this can't be the reason (coming from the background that we were nothing before we were born). Because, if we were created solely to test us, then the purpose is to segregate man by passing/failing the test. Which would mean that God cannot have loved us all completely because by virtue of testing, some of us will fail it.

3.) God created man to experience the world through man.

There is also a little bit of truth in this but it can't be the reason... because if that were the case, we are only God's appendages - and this would conflict with Catholic teaching that we are of value as unique individuals from God.

So, what is the correct Catholic answer?

We are created by God because of his Divine love; to share with us His joy and His perfection. Therefore, we are like seeds, he created us to give us the potential of making our souls great and learn of His love that we may share in His joy. And so it pleases Him when we achieve that end. And it saddens Him when we fail. For free choice is part of perfecting of the souls. And once perfected, it is perfected without end.

So, if you take that answer and bounce it against LDS teaching, you will find that besides the pre-mortal existence which gives the meaning of "sharing His joy" a much deeper meaning... it's really not that far off.

Does that at least answer some of your questions?

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, anatess.

I just have one more question, the last one, I promise, I will not ask more.

Since the this thread is discussing what exactly the Bible says, I'd like to know what do you "used to think" about these verses.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"(John10:34)

"I have said, Ye are gods;and all of you are children of the most High." (Paslm82:6)

I know what I was thinking when I read it without any religion background, just reading with my own mind. To me, it's very simple, we are children of the most High, that's why He alone is our God, that's why there is no other God for us, our Father is the most High, who else can be higher than our Father, who else can be our God?

And without reading Mormon scriptures yet, I thought, why are we children of the Most High, if He created everything, why didn't He call everything His children. Why are we special, why did He want to create us in His own image. Why are we so precious and special to Him if He created everything in the world. I found the answer, and I know it's true.

But I now realize, that with a learned mind, the verses might mean something different. So again, I'm just curious to know. And if catholic have answers to my questions, I'd also be interested to know. Thank you. These are the last things I'd ask. :P Thank you for your patience.

(Just a story of me to share. I learned at school that we, humans, are the evolutionary result of apes, I can't remember exactly, but I remember the teacher showing a picture of apes, I was 6 years old. I kept asking the teacher why there were still apes in the zoo? why didn't the apes in the zoo become human? The teacher said only the smart apes became human. :P hehe. And since then, every time I went to the zoo, I felt so sorry for those "ancestors" that had to stay in the zoo because they were not smart enough." Then I asked teacher if the smart humans would become something else someday and the stupid ones would go to the zoo. The teacher got very upset at me. So I learned not to ask too many questions... :P)

So, you know, I won't ask more questions. :) hehe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, anatess.

I just have one more question, the last one, I promise, I will not ask more.

Since the this thread is discussing what exactly the Bible says, I'd like to know what do you "used to think" about these verses.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"(John10:34)

"I have said, Ye are gods;and all of you are children of the most High." (Paslm82:6)

I know what I was thinking when I read it without any religion background, just reading with my own mind. To me, it's very simple, we are children of the most High, that's why He alone is our God, that's why there is no other God for us, our Father is the most High, who else can be higher than our Father, who else can be our God?

And without reading Mormon scriptures yet, I thought, why are we children of the Most High, if He created everything, why didn't He call everything His children. Why are we special, why did He want to create us in His own image. Why are we so precious and special to Him if He created everything in the world. I found the answer, and I know it's true.

But I now realize, that with a learned mind, the verses might mean something different. So again, I'm just curious to know. And if catholic have answers to my questions, I'd also be interested to know. Thank you. These are the last things I'd ask. :P Thank you for your patience.

(Just a story of me to share. I learned at school that we, humans, are the evolutionary result of apes, I can't remember exactly, but I remember the teacher showing a picture of apes, I was 6 years old. I kept asking the teacher why there were still apes in the zoo? why didn't the apes in the zoo become human? The teacher said only the smart apes became human. :P hehe. And since then, every time I went to the zoo, I felt so sorry for those "ancestors" that had to stay in the zoo because they were not smart enough." Then I asked teacher if the smart humans would become something else someday and the stupid ones would go to the zoo. The teacher got very upset at me. So I learned not to ask too many questions... :P)

So, you know, I won't ask more questions. :) hehe

Ask away. Anytime.

It is really better for understanding if we don't just pick one verse and discuss it in isolation. You kinda have to take the entire Psalm 82 and the entire John 10 to build an understanding.

Psalm 82 and John 10 Catholic understanding is fairly straightforward.

The gods here are the chosen of God who are given the authority to judge. In OT times - that's the highest seat of power in the church. In the first few verses of Psalm 82, it talks of God standing in the midst of the assembled gods. He then calls out all the assembly for their unjust actions. That they have been given the power (ye are gods, sons of the Most High) yet they abuse it. So, they will not gain special favor with God and will die like the common man, the ones not given the power.

So that, in John 10, Jesus uses this passage to remind the Pharisees that they consider themselves one of the gods yet they are ruling unjustly. He contrasts Himself from the corrupt Pharisees as having the true Godhood.

In summary - these 2 chapters in Catholic doctrine serves as a warning for church authority - that even if they have been given Priesthood power, they can lose it if they corrupt this authority.

Also, it serves as a warning to all men - that even though they count themselves as the elect, they can die as all others who are not elected through their inequity.

None of this Catholic understanding contradicts LDS doctrine. Even if it is not complete.

And you can ask more questions if you like. I don't have all the answers... but I promise not to be like the teacher in the zoo... :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In summary - these 2 chapters in Catholic doctrine serves as a warning for church authority - that even if they have been given Priesthood power, they can lose it if they corrupt this authority.

Also, it serves as a warning to all men - that even though they count themselves as the elect, they can die as all others who are not elected through their inequity.

None of this Catholic understanding contradicts LDS doctrine. Even if it is not complete.

And you can ask more questions if you like. I don't have all the answers... but I promise not to be like the teacher in the zoo... :D

Thank you so much anatess. I really love it. I was just reading all the scriptures by myself, so I'm really missing a lot of things. And since I'm not completely taught by LDS either, would you please tell me what does the LDS teach about these scriptures? Do they use them as the catholic or differently or they explain basically the same but more than that? I totally understand the what you just explained and think it's totally make sense and right.

I really really enjoyed your answers to all my questions. It's the first time I totally understand the catholic or Christian teachings. Because everywhere I check, it's always a list of conflicts.

Maybe you can take all the answers you posted here, and make a post about the teachings of catholic and LDS in harmony. That would be great. Because when I read the long list about how the mormon teachings totally conflict the Bible, it's really confusing and hard to get out of it. I'm not saying that the Mormons can only be right if their teachings are in harmony with the rest of the christians, but it's much easier to understand or accept something that is in harmony with what you believe. (I didn't believe in anything, but for the people that have their christian beliefs.)

When we have complete understanding, we do find harmony, in life with other people and in the gospel.

I really love it, thank you very much.

Do you think I can use your posts here in my blog? I really love how you put things together.:)

Edited by Faith_Grace
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you so much anatess. I really love it. I was just reading all the scriptures by myself, so I'm really missing a lot of things. And since I'm not completely taught by LDS either, would you please tell me what does the LDS teach about these scriptures? Do they use them as the catholic or differently or they explain basically the same but more than that? I totally understand the what you just explained and think it's totally make sense and right.

I really really enjoyed your answers to all my questions. It's the first time I totally understand the catholic or Christian teachings. Because everywhere I check, it's always a list of conflicts.

Maybe you can take all the answers you posted here, and make a post about the teachings of catholic and LDS in harmony. That would be great. Because when I read the long list about how the mormon teachings totally conflict the Bible, it's really confusing and hard to get out of it. I'm not saying that the Mormons can only be right if their teachings are in harmony with the rest of the christians, but it's much easier to understand or accept something that is in harmony with what you believe. (I didn't believe in anything, but for the people that have their christian beliefs.)

When we have complete understanding, we do find harmony, in life with other people and in the gospel.

I really love it, thank you very much.

Do you think I can use your posts here in my blog? I really love how you put things together.:)

Whoa... I'm waaaay far from the scholars that touch on this very subject but if it helps you bridge your relationship with your friend, sure. You can use this exchange in your blog.

As far as LDS theology on Psalm 82 it goes a lot deeper in meaning because it takes "gods" as divine and not just mortal. Therefore, the implication of God standing in the midst of an assembly of gods goes beyond just the mortal judges into the divine potential of man. So that, you can take the exact same explanation I gave to you from the Catholic perspective and apply it beyond just the priesthood authority of man into man's potential for divinity... Our potential to become gods ourselves.

John 10 then holds a more majestic meaning - that Jesus was pointing out the error of the Pharisees to charge him with blasphemy for stating that He is the Son of God, when it is in their scriptures that the Pharisees themselves are sons of the Most High.

Now, amazingly, this is not too alien from Catholic doctrine either. Because, Catholics do believe that man can become gods. But, there is a slight difference in nuance because of the difference in fundamental belief between LDS and Catholic on the nature of man. Because, LDS believe that God is of the same "species" as man whereas Catholics don't. So that, when Catholics say man can become gods, they become divine by adoption and never become god in nature. Make sense?

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is interesting to me how many people think that the Bible is ALL the truth,

but then insist that the doctrine of the Trinity is the test of a Christian,

when it isn't even IN the Bible, but can only be pieced together with ignoring so much IN the Bible!

Oh, well, I feel if people get awake enough to feel the need for God, they will continue to seek his truth, and that is why God sends us out as missionaries! Some day I will get to go, but for now I do what I can where I can, to spread the truth!

1. Jesus Christ organized his church

2. men changed it

3. it has been brought back to earth- by an angel is prophesied in Revelation 14:6. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because, LDS believe that God is of the same "species" as man whereas Catholics don't. So that, when Catholics say man can become gods, they become divine by adoption and never become god in nature. Make sense?

Anatess, you are awesome. Thank you!

I remember that I wondered why paul said we were adopted if we were children of God. (I already love the lds hymn "I am a child of God" a lot by then, so I guess the concept was already in my head.)

Now that you mention it, I totally understand Catholic teaching on this, to me, it's totally logical, it makes sense.

I now understand why Paul said we were adopted, but at that time I was quite puzzled, what I understood was like Catholics, so I was really confused for quite some time. Well, I found my way back to LDS though. When I get too confused, only a personal revelation could help, and that's how I got back to the LDS. :)

Well, I'm just saying, I totally understand the Catholic teaching on this somehow, that's exactly like what I thought. (I'm not offending Catholics by saying this, right? I'm just excited to know that what I thought was the same as the Catholics.:P)

Thank you very much for your time and patience! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point is that each of us, regardless of the specific area of Christianity to which we adhere, is operating solely on the universal principle of faith. Not one of us can prove beyond argument that our perspective is absolutely correct. Conflicts of belief will always exist so long as we are free to choose what to believe in our hearts and minds.

Excellent point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wondering whre the scripture is that says GOD can't/won't add to His words?

There is no scripture saying this buts let's use logic here if God said something about faith then later changed it every one before he changed it would have been wrong in their beliefs that is why no books will ever be added to the catholic bible

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no scripture saying this buts let's use logic here if God said something about faith then later changed it every one before he changed it would have been wrong in their beliefs that is why no books will ever be added to the catholic bible

That doesn't make sense. There's the Old Testament before Christ became mortal, then there's the New Testament when Christ lived on earth. Then there's the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles after Christ resurrected. Now, in the OT, God gave man the Mosaic Law, in the NT, God gave a higher law. Did that make Moses wrong???

The Catholic Church closed the cannon to prevent people from changing doctrine. Nothing at all to do with Christ's instruction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no scripture saying this buts let's use logic here if God said something about faith then later changed it every one before he changed it would have been wrong in their beliefs that is why no books will ever be added to the catholic bible

That places Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the children of Israel at a distinct disadvantage if we use your logic. They were God's chosen people. Yet they did not have the New Testament.

The Faith changed when Moses was given the Law of Moses. And it changed again when Christ brought his Law. Of course, it also changed when Peter took the gospel to the Gentiles. Every time a new revelation occurred anciently, there was a change in the Faith - something that those previously did not have.

So, either everyone was wrong previously (as you insist), OR they were given the portion of the gospel they needed at that time.

One of the great things about continuing revelation is that we now know all will be taught the fullness of the gospel either here on earth, or in the Spirit World prior to resurrection and final judgment. With such insight, we do not have to trap God into not making any more inspired teaching for us. We can have modern revelation of God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no scripture saying this buts let's use logic here if God said something about faith then later changed it every one before he changed it would have been wrong in their beliefs that is why no books will ever be added to the catholic bible

So now that God has spoken, he cannot speak further? What prevented him from speaking to Moses when he had already spoken to Adam? What prevented Christ from speaking of a new faith? That's right....nothing prevented it.

Nobody can tell God to hold his peace. If he wants to tell us something, he's going to tell us whether we want to hear it or not. A great deal of the house of Israel didn't want to hear what Moses had to say. A great deal of Jerusalem didn't want to hear what Jesus had to say. Were they wrong in saying it?

There is no part of the Bible that states it is the complete word of God. Why? Because the books that comprise the bible weren't assembled until centuries after they were written...the authors of the books of the Bible certainly believed in continuing revelation from God. That's how the books were written. We would not have a Bible at all were it not for ongoing revelation from God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That places Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the children of Israel at a distinct disadvantage if we use your logic. They were God's chosen people. Yet they did not have the New Testament.

True, they did not have the NT, yet Jesus said; John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

The Faith changed when Moses was given the Law of Moses. And it changed again when Christ brought his Law. Of course, it also changed when Peter took the gospel to the Gentiles. Every time a new revelation occurred anciently, there was a change in the Faith - something that those previously did not have.

What "changed"?

Righteousness has ALWAYS been by grace through faith. The Messiah was first preached to Adam and Eve. (Gen 3:15)

Jesus said again; (Matt. 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

As for Abraham;

Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Also see Galatians chapter 3.

For sure we have, in these last days, much more inspired teaching than did those 2000+ years ago, but Adam, Abraham, David, you , me etc... were and are, ALL saved by faith in Jesus Christ Who is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Heb. 13:8)

If someone in the past or today says we are saved otherwise then that is not revelation from God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What "changed"?

Righteousness has ALWAYS been by grace through faith. The Messiah was first preached to Adam and Eve. (Gen 3:15)

Jesus said again; (Matt. 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Which usually meant something other than the obvious, literal sense. However, I've no doubt you'll ignore this as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes I will, unless you explain the obvious to me.

Unless? I think the words you intended are even when.

The way the terms "uphold" and "fulfil" were used in ancient Jewish scripture interpretation meant that you would show that the text was in agreement with your teaching, even if yours was not the obvious explanation. See for example the Mekhilta on Exodus 14:29 where R. Pappias proposes several obvious readings of scripture only to have R. Akiva reject them in favour of a less apparent interpretation, which he then proceeds to "uphold."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What "changed"?

Righteousness has ALWAYS been by grace through faith. The Messiah was first preached to Adam and Eve. (Gen 3:15)

Jesus said again; (Matt. 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

As for Abraham;

Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Also see Galatians chapter 3.

For sure we have, in these last days, much more inspired teaching than did those 2000+ years ago, but Adam, Abraham, David, you , me etc... were and are, ALL saved by faith in Jesus Christ Who is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Heb. 13:8)

If someone in the past or today says we are saved otherwise then that is not revelation from God.

For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Romans 10:4)

It's true nothing really changed. Faith is required from the beginning of the world. Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies in the old testament, and to save us.

We are saved only because of His grace, and by our faith in Christ.

What is faith? How do we show Christ that we have faith in Him?

Isn't it by obeying His commandments?

"If you love me, keep my commandments."

What are the commandments? Are they still really exactly the same in the OT as in the NT?

I think it did change. In the sense, something changed in the law, we now keep different commandments, even a higher law (commandments)

But, you are right, nothing really changed. From the beginning of the days till these last days, faith in Christ is the only way to be saved.

By the way, I think keeping the commandments is kind of "work". We love one another by working for each other, there is no love, there are only proofs of love. We can not know how much God loves us if He did not send His only begotten Son to die for us.

We have faith in Christ, so we work.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

I do agree with you on the point " For sure we have, in these last days, much more inspired teaching than did those 2000+ years ago, but Adam, Abraham, David, you , me etc... were and are, ALL saved by faith in Jesus Christ Who is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

But I will do the Father's will and keep the commandments because of faith, and I see it as a "work", a hard work.

(I really don't always love everyone around me, still working on it....^_^)

Edited by Faith_Grace
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Make no mistake about it. The Bible is 100% the word of God, the errors are in the translations between Greek and English. If you can't accept the Bible as 100% the world of God then you must reject it in it's entirety.

I understand you opinion. Thank you. I am, however, a little more interested in what God thinks.

Does He agree with you?

edit...now I see you posted this a year ago, oh well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
Guest Chri77pher88
Hidden

I don't understand your question, but it might be me. What are you asking about Adam & Eve? As far as I know, we don't have contradictions with the Bible.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share