Racially disconnected in Church?


Dossice
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One Testimony Sunday late May, a woman in my ward got up and spoke about how although she knew the church was true, she felt racially disconnected because she was one of the only African American women to go to an almost fully Caucasian LDS ward, and told how she has even been battling going to church because she felt out of place.

Now, I do not agree with her reasoning in that for one: our ward is very poor and very humble, and, if any of the other families are similar to mine, we do not judge her by the color of her skin nor treat her differently in any form. And two: She is an exceedingly kind, intelligent, and spiritual woman, and should not let her views of her race become an obstacle to her happiness or faith.

That being said, she has not been attending church for over a month. I sincerely hope that it is not due to these feelings that she earlier revealed, but if that is indeed the case, how would you approach her to let her know that she should not feel disenfranchised from coming to church and practicing her religion because she happens to be a minority within the particular ward? The fact that she is already racially sensitive places a tricky role in this as I fear that she may become offended if anyone did approach her on the subject, but I feel that someone should give her a heads up that we love and respect her for who she is, without consideration to how light or dark her skin may be.

However, on a separate note, I feel that it was inappropriate for her to make use of testimony time to publicly present her issue, and that it would have been more beneficial to her situation if she spoke privately with the Bishop so that he could inspire her that her feelings should not gravitate to race but to her faith, and/or in the case that her feelings stem from being discriminated against by whomever in the church, they could resolve the issue expediently. By presenting her conflicts to the ward, she only made people self-conscious about her issue, and thus uncomfortable and stuck in a position in that we know that she feels different, but there is virtually nothing we can do besides to ignore the fact that she gave such a testimony and pray that she will find the strength to come to the truth that race holds no bounds in religion.

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If it were a white guy in a black congregation who said the same thing, I can guess exactly how that'd be received. But there's a popular conception in the US that racism is only a one-way street, so of course she gets a pass.

That said: she is a Church member; and as such, you (as a fellow member) are under covenant to bear her burdens as best you can. So, I think you've got it right: ignore it, pray for her, and reach out as best you can.

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Now, I do not agree with her reasoning in that for one: our ward is very poor and very humble, and, if any of the other families are similar to mine, we do not judge her by the color of her skin nor treat her differently in any form. And two: She is an exceedingly kind, intelligent, and spiritual woman, and should not let her views of her race become an obstacle to her happiness or faith.

It's interesting that you are mentioning this because based on what you wrote, she didn't say she felt members of the ward were judging her on her race or skin color, she said she felt out of place (two different things) Hmmmm.....

I don't think you should approach her about how she should feel.

I feel that it was inappropriate for her to make use of testimony time to publicly present her issue, and that it would have been more beneficial to her situation if she spoke privately with the Bishop so that he could inspire her that her feelings should not gravitate to race but to her faith, and/or in the case that her feelings stem from being discriminated against by whomever in the church, they could resolve the issue expediently. By presenting her conflicts to the ward, she only made people self-conscious about her issue, and thus uncomfortable and stuck in a position in that we know that she feels different, but there is virtually nothing we can do besides to ignore the fact that she gave such a testimony and pray that she will find the strength to come to the truth that race holds no bounds in religion.

I feel it's inappropriate every time people get up and talk about anything else than is not concerning Christ and his Church but few people complain. I guess maybe you are the racially sensitive and feel uncomfortable that she brought up the issue of race in Church?

Having said that, I lived in many countries around the world where I was the minority. It's not as easy as you may think. It's pretty hard at firs to get used to the fact that people generally look at you differently, you stand out in the crowd (who wants that??) you do not feel you "belong", etc. It took me a while to get used to it, more I traveled, more I was able to handle it. But keep in mind that some people handle these sort of issues in a complete different way.

Edited by Suzie
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If it were a white guy in a black congregation who said the same thing, I can guess exactly how that'd be received. But there's a popular conception in the US that racism is only a one-way street, so of course she gets a pass..

But that's not what the OP said. The lady in question didn't mention racism. She said she felt out of place.

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If it were a white guy in a black congregation who said the same thing, I can guess exactly how that'd be received. But there's a popular conception in the US that racism is only a one-way street, so of course she gets a pass.

That said: she is a Church member; and as such, you (as a fellow member) are under covenant to bear her burdens as best you can. So, I think you've got it right: ignore it, pray for her, and reach out as best you can.

So, when Dossice says that the sister shouldn't feel the way she does, that's a pass? And we ought to ignore a sister's feelings because we don't understand them? Wow.

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So, when Dossice says that the sister shouldn't feel the way she does, that's a pass? And we ought to ignore a sister's feelings because we don't understand them? Wow.

Dossice is the only one with personal knowledge of how this woman has actually been treated and whether, based on the ward's social climate, those feelings are justified. I'm not going to say she's full of bunk just because what she said is politically incorrect.

As for how the sister should be treated: you apparently missed the second paragraph of my post.

But that's not what the OP said. The lady in question didn't mention racism. She said she felt out of place.

And if a white guy openly says he feels "out of place" in a congregation full of blacks . . . you really think they wouldn't drum him out of the church as a racist in under thirty seconds?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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It's interesting that you are mentioning this because based on what you wrote, she didn't say she felt members of the ward were judging her on her race or skin color, she said she felt out of place (two different things) Hmmmm.....

I don't think you should approach her about how she should feel.

I mention this because no one goes out of their way to treat her differently as if she were another race, so there should be no reason that she would feel out of place. The two usually go hand in hand. If you are treated differently, you feel out of place.

I feel it's inappropriate every time people get up and talk about anything else than is not concerning Christ and his Church but few people complain. I guess maybe you are the racially sensitive and feel uncomfortable that she brought up the issue of race in Church?

I am not racially sensitive, but of course I felt uncomfortable that she brought up the issue in church. Church is not a place where you discuss such topics. I feel the exact same way when people get up and advertise for their business.

Having said that, I lived in many countries around the world where I was the minority. It's not as easy as you may think. It's pretty hard at firs to get used to the fact that people generally look at you differently, you stand out in the crowd (who wants that??) you do not feel you "belong", etc. It took me a while to get used to it, more I traveled, more I was able to handle it. But keep in mind that some people handle these sort of issues in a complete different way.

I grew up in a majorly Hispanic neighborhood, so I know exactly how she feels to be a minority and to feel out of place. However, while I attended school, I was heavily discriminated against. I am not saying her plight is any better or worse, anytime there is any sort of racial factor it is a tough experience to encounter. However, the point I am trying to make is, she should feel free to come and worship as she likes regardless of what other races are attending the church.

Edited by Dossice
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First of all, don't tell her how she "should" feel.

If I were interested in befriending her, I'd ask her straight up if there is a way for her to feel less racially apart in the white ward, or to make that apartness less prominent among her other feelings of faith and sisterhood.

Of course, she is entitled to her own opinions of how she should feel. The fact is, however, it is difficult in regards to how she made it a public issue. I am sure she wouldn't appreciate it if 30+ members of our ward repetitively asked her how they could make her feel more apart of the ward, although I'm sure if a few people did that, it would show her that we are concerned for her welfare nad would make her feel more at ease. I'm not sure if ignoring her plight is truly the best way to go, nor being blunt. Perhaps there is middle ground in which the answer lies.

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And if a white guy openly says he feels "out of place" in a congregation full of blacks . . . you really think they wouldn't drum him out of the church as a racist in under thirty seconds?

No, I don't think they would. I do think they'd laugh that a white guy finally gets what they go through! And your second paragraph is precisely where I found the advice to ignore what the sister said. Ignore it, but pray for her.

Dismissing someone's feelings because you think they're unjustified is a certain way to alienate a person.

My high school was also majority hispanic (I'm anglo), but I didn't feel discrimination against me - I was comfortable with pretty much everyone. *shrug* We each have our own experience.

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i can understand how she would feel racially disconnected, especially if she is an adult convert from another church.

i live in an area that is very mixed black/white and one mexican family. the stake pres has encouraged the mexican family to attend the spanish branch an hour away once a month. to avoid the very thing that this sister is going though. it's not that we have not reached out in every way to this family, but it's different. you get a disconnect.

i've talked at length with some of our black sisters. though our branch has a fair mix they sometimes get flack from their non member black friends. the church as a whole has a rep of being a "white" church. they received a lot of criticism for "leaving their ppl and going to that white church".

ever been to a mostly black church? it's different. if she came from one our church is rather hard to swallow. they stand and sing up beat gospel hymns, they raise their hands, they "amen" the preacher. compared to our church it's very lively. that is part of their culture, their race. like it or not church is as much a social experience as a spiritual one. it's very easy for someone to feel disconnected when they can't have that social they are so used to.

i say continue to reach out as much as you can as a friend. you can't provide the cultural connection she is missing but in time maybe she won't crave that so much because the true friendships fill that hole. don't be afraid to ask her real questions and listen with real intent to understand. ask her about her conversion, how her friends reacted, what it's like for her to be going to a church that is mostly white, and what she is missing, what you might be able to do to help her feel more at home.

something that might be a lot of fun for you is to look up one of gladys knight's saints unified voices firesides and take this sister and a couple of friends (even if you have to travel some distance it's worth it). if there isn't one talk to the mission pres about setting one up. she will enjoy it and you will get a better feel as to what she may be trying to say when she says she feels disconnected. it's an awesome experience. their website is here SUV Choir

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No, I don't think they would. I do think they'd laugh that a white guy finally gets what they go through! And your second paragraph is precisely where I found the advice to ignore what the sister said. Ignore it, but pray for her.

Dismissing someone's feelings because you think they're unjustified is a certain way to alienate a person.

My high school was also majority hispanic (I'm anglo), but I didn't feel discrimination against me - I was comfortable with pretty much everyone. *shrug* We each have our own experience.

I actually did not "feel" discrimination in high school, I was called a racist name once or twice, but the most discrimination I've ever had afflicted upon me was throughout grade school where kids were physically violent towards me and used emotional abuse. However, I have even been discriminated against by my own race, just for the fact that I am indeed different in that I have bright red hair and pale skin which cannot tan. However, although it is a very serious matter which is intermixed between all races, discrimination is not the issue at hand in this topic.

And the fact is that no one wants to "ignore" her feelings, but ignore that she has an issue with the majority of the ward being Caucasian. There is not much we can do to make her feel at ease besides to keep treating her with respect and love that we share with everyone.

Edited by Dossice
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I actually did not "feel" discrimination in high school, I was called a racist name once or twice, but the most discrimination I've ever had afflicted on me was throughout grade school where there kids were physically violent towards me and used emotional abuse. However, teachers did nothing to resolve the issue, nor the schools, so the only option was to be transferred to another school where the issue still existed.

And the fact is that no one wants to "ignore" her feelings, but ignore that she has an issue with the majority of the ward being Caucasian. There is not much we can do to make her feel at ease with our race besides to keep treating her with respect and love that we share with everyone.

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i can understand how she would feel racially disconnected, especially if she is an adult convert from another church.

i live in an area that is very mixed black/white and one mexican family. the stake pres has encouraged the mexican family to attend the spanish branch an hour away once a month. to avoid the very thing that this sister is going though. it's not that we have not reached out in every way to this family, but it's different. you get a disconnect.

i've talked at length with some of our black sisters. though our branch has a fair mix they sometimes get flack from their non member black friends. the church as a whole has a rep of being a "white" church. they received a lot of criticism for "leaving their ppl and going to that white church".

ever been to a mostly black church? it's different. if she came from one our church is rather hard to swallow. they stand and sing up beat gospel hymns, they raise their hands, they "amen" the preacher. compared to our church it's very lively. that is part of their culture, their race. like it or not church is as much a social experience as a spiritual one. it's very easy for someone to feel disconnected when they can't have that social they are so used to.

i say continue to reach out as much as you can as a friend. you can't provide the cultural connection she is missing but in time maybe she won't crave that so much because the true friendships fill that hole. don't be afraid to ask her real questions and listen with real intent to understand. ask her about her conversion, how her friends reacted, what it's like for her to be going to a church that is mostly white, and what she is missing, what you might be able to do to help her feel more at home.

something that might be a lot of fun for you is to look up one of gladys knight's saints unified voices firesides and take this sister and a couple of friends (even if you have to travel some distance it's worth it). if there isn't one talk to the mission pres about setting one up. she will enjoy it and you will get a better feel as to what she may be trying to say when she says she feels disconnected. it's an awesome experience. their website is here SUV Choir

Thank you Gwen for your understanding, unbiased post! What a wonderful, proactive way to make her feel more connected.

Edited by Dossice
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I actually did not "feel" discrimination in high school, I was called a racist name once or twice, but the most discrimination I've ever had afflicted on me was throughout grade school where there kids were physically violent towards me and used emotional abuse. However, teachers did nothing to resolve the issue, nor the schools, so the only option was to be transferred to another school where the issue still existed.

And the fact is that no one wants to "ignore" her feelings, but ignore that she has an issue with the majority of the ward being Caucasian. There is not much we can do to make her feel at ease with our race besides to keep treating her with respect and love that we share with everyone.

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Dossice-

I would ignore those picking at you. You are seeking to lift this sister and help her feel welcome. That is a truly noble and CHRIST-like goal.

I agree with Gwen 110%. I've never had much personal experience with mixed-race issues, but it is human nature to be drawn to "our own kind" (this is based on spiritual principles- see D&C 88:40), and it can be difficult to overcome when those who share our surface characteristics (such as race) are completely inclined to do something else. The way to overcome that is through the blood of the LAMB and faith in HIS name.

What you can do is show your love, and help the other ward members show theirs. If you are concerned, I would approach the bishop and tell him. She should have home and visiting teachers visiting with her once a month at the minimum. If you reach out in charity and love, she will respond (unless she hardens her heart- in that case, there is nothing you can do (but keep trying anyway!)). Don't bring the race issue up with her, unless she brings it up in conversation first. Emphasize that she is a child of GOD, that the Church is true, and that her fellow Saints want her back to worship with the ward.

If you do this prayerfully and with love, you will help this sister feel better and you will grow from the experience- and everyone will be better off.

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Now, I do not agree with her reasoning

That's too bad. It's how she feels, and she's entitled to that. You don't know what experiences she's had in her life to bring her to this point, but I have little doubt that she is validated.

and, if any of the other families are similar to mine, we do not judge her by the color of her skin nor treat her differently in any form.

Do you show her that?

And two: She is an exceedingly kind, intelligent, and spiritual woman, and should not let her views of her race become an obstacle to her happiness or faith.

As someone else said, it's not for you to say what she "should" or "should not" feel.

That being said, she has not been attending church for over a month. I sincerely hope that it is not due to these feelings that she earlier revealed, but if that is indeed the case, how would you approach her to let her know that she should not feel disenfranchised from coming to church and practicing her religion because she happens to be a minority within the particular ward?

Invite her over for dinner. Call her and say that you hadn't seen her at church in awhile, and see if she'd like you to pick her up. Offer her a ride to a Relief Society activity. Take her a plate of cookies or some bread or something, with a handwritten note.

The fact that she is already racially sensitive places a tricky role in this as I fear that she may become offended if anyone did approach her on the subject, but I feel that someone should give her a heads up that we love and respect her for who she is, without consideration to how light or dark her skin may be.

This is not something you "give her a heads up" on -- this is something you need to show her in her actions.

However, on a separate note, I feel that it was inappropriate for her to make use of testimony time to publicly present her issue,

True.

and that it would have been more beneficial to her situation if she spoke privately with the Bishop so that he could inspire her that her feelings should not gravitate to race but to her faith, and/or in the case that her feelings stem from being discriminated against by whomever in the church, they could resolve the issue expediently.

Again, you cannot tell a person what they should or should not feel. If this is an older woman, especially, as are the African-American women in my ward, you have no idea what she may have gone through in her lifetime as a black person, and a black woman. As for "resolv[ing] the issue expediently," if it stems from one or two specific people, racism isn't something you can just "fix."

By presenting her conflicts to the ward, she only made people self-conscious about her issue, and thus uncomfortable and stuck in a position in that we know that she feels different, but there is virtually nothing we can do besides to ignore the fact that she gave such a testimony and pray that she will find the strength to come to the truth that race holds no bounds in religion.

Well it's too bad that you feel self-conscious about the fact that she is left out of the ward, intentionally or otherwise. And there is something you can do. You can reach out to her, be friendly, include her in activities. If you think there's really honestly nothing you can do, then you need to pull your head out of the sand and look around you.

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I saw my first balck person when I was 12 and my daughter when she was 3... and she asked me : mother how did taht person burn to coal?

Anyway I had a frend in the Church we drove her to the Church all the time, but then we could not drive her any more and she had to work on Sundays and she stopped coming. She was a beautiful girl from Angola and a mother of 4. Her kids were so qute.. the 2 older ones came to the country later. One of her kids is stil active in the church. I know that these few blacks we have in the meetings feel different... but so would I feel too in a black ward. IF there is only a couple of that colour inteh ward you are well noticed and maybe those persons would, rather just dissapear in the crowd.. which they never can do as they are .. different. :huh:

I think I would pay her a visit.... tell her that I mis her (I did to my friend, but she had other issues too like working on Sundays...)

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someone suggested to not focus on race. i think you very well could focus on that, at first anyway, to strike up conversation. call her, tell her you'd like to meet for lunch. let her know you have noticed she has been out and that you miss her. tell her how her testimony about feeling racially disconnected pulled at your heart. be honest that you really don't fully understand it but you would like to. ask her to help you understand, to share her experiences with you.

pray about it, you'll know what to do. the hard part is having the courage to do it.

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WingNut, of course I understand everything that you have picked apart from my post. As I have replied earlier, of course you cannot tell someone what they "should" or "should not" feel, and I had no intention in doing so. She is entitled to her own opinions, especially those that have evolved over time through her own unique experiences, but the whole issue is making her comfortable in a non-threatening environment, especially in a religion in which she herself bore a strong testimony in believing.

Well it's too bad that you feel self-conscious about the fact that she is left out of the ward, intentionally or otherwise. And there is something you can do. You can reach out to her, be friendly, include her in activities. If you think there's really honestly nothing you can do, then you need to pull your head out of the sand and look around you.

For one, I never said she was left out of the ward, just that she felt out of place because she was a minority. One of the points that I've been trying to make is that most people have been doing as much as they can to make her feel welcome and apart of the group. It is not a situation in which she is isolated from the ward. Objectively, do you not think the ward would be self-conscious about offending her after she thought it was important enough to mention publicly?

Do you show her that?

I'm sorry you didn't understand the context of that quote. "if any of the other families are similar to mine, we do not judge her by the color of her skin nor treat her differently in any form." In the simplest terms, that means that my family (including me) does not judge her or treat her differently.

Edited by Dossice
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It's such a fine line to help and love someone that feels racially disconnected to having it turned around to feel racially segregated or motivated.

As a people we want to love the one and to have the one feel accepted. But sometimes we tend to overdo in our attempts to accomplish what we set out to do. Sometimes we try so hard that a person can feel they are being singled out as the token "different person." But we don't give up. Sometimes it's the subtle things we do. Do we invite her to sit with us in Sacrament meeting? Do we ask her if she needs a ride to a Relief Society function? Do we welcome her the same as we would anyone else? Is she given opportunities to serve in the ward as anyone else?

Sometimes we think we are doing these things when really we aren't. Stereotypes abound in the world and even in the Church. Plus there is the mentality of "her people" and "my people." It may be subconsciously but it exists.

I seriously am not trying to make this appear racial, just to voice my opinion on the fine line.

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Objectively, do you not think the ward would be self-conscious about offending her after she thought it was important enough to mention publicly?

Maybe for the rest of the day, but it seems odd that you would still be dwelling on it when this happened in May. I don't think the imposed self-consciousness would be something that would last.

Whether this woman has been excluded from activities, fellowship, or anything else, or whether it's all in her head, it's still real to her. She is a de facto outsider. I am in my ward. My ward has two ages of families: my age, and my parents' age. Those my age are all here for medical school, dental school, medical residency, or law school. Those my parents' age are almost all permanent residents in the area, many of whom raised their own children here. My husband and I are here for a "real" job -- not a four-year stint at the university. We don't fit into any group, and I feel very much on the outside. I have a lot of issues with the social structure of the ward, but I also acknowledge that many of them may be simply perceived on my part. It doesn't, however, diminish that I hurt from time to time, not being invited to the cool kids' table. I don't bring it up in Sacrament meeting, because I know it's not the right place, but I do address it from time to time when I'm in one-on-one settings with people I trust. I don't expect sympathy or immediate fixing, but I hope that those people with whom I share my concerns will be discreet enough to let others know that there's a problem while protecting my privacy and confidence so that I don't look like a whiner.

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I do think they'd laugh that a white guy finally gets what they go through!

Thank you for confirming my earlier assertion that

But there's a popular conception in the US that racism is only a one-way street,

.

If minority feels out-of-place in the majority--well, we've got to completely cater to that individual. But if the situations are reversed--why, he had it coming to him, and he should just deal with it!

Dismissing someone's feelings because you think they're unjustified is a certain way to alienate a person.

I didn't say "dismiss", I said "ignore"--as in, don't make a big to-do about it. The fact that this woman brought it up in testimony meeting and basically tried to condemn the congregation in toto screams "drama queen" to me, and I personally find that drama queens are best ignored. There are some people who have the finesse and tact to deal with such situations squarely--I like what Gwen and Pam have said a lot, and that approach might work for them.

But me? I know I can't win, so I prefer not to even try.

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