Agency

[Justice]

What is agency, exactly?

When do you have it?

I'm going to pull from some documents on the topic I've made over the years.

There are only 6 scriptures that use the word agency, but many others teach the concept with other words (like dominion). First I'll post 5 of the scriptures that directly use the word agency (please read them and as much of the surrounding verses as necessary to get an idea of what's being said):

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

D&C 93:

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

D&C 101:

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

The one I left out really doesn't pertain to this discussion as it was directed at one individual.

One thing that I'd like to point out is that agency is not the same for all. For instance, someone in prison does not have the same agency as someone who is not. It's a difficult discussion to reach any agreement on until you set some definitions. It seems when the General Authorities teach or discuss agency, or the general ability to choose given to man, they say "moral agency" and not just agency (as pointed out in D&C 101).

This makes it easier to discuss agency. Moral agency covers a man's given ability to choose how moral he will be, or whether or not he will obey law. He does not have to have all laws and commandments available in order to exercise his moral agency.

Adam was given a choice between 2 things in the Garden, and exercised his agency to choose one. However, since there was not a third option, he did not have agency to choose that 3rd thing. We can only be held accountable for the choices we makes against what choices are available.

Thoughts?

Another thought to the astute reader: we see a seeming contradiction between D&C 29:36 and Moses 7:32... anyone see it? Any thoughts about the seeming contradiction?

[bytor2112]

Another thought to the astute reader: we see a seeming contradiction between D&C 29:36 and Moses 7:32... anyone see it? Any thoughts about the seeming contradiction?

I am guessing...because in the pre-existence we were spirits and not yet MAN?

[Vanhin]

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

Another thought to the astute reader: we see a seeming contradiction between D&C 29:36 and Moses 7:32... anyone see it? Any thoughts about the seeming contradiction?

I think the answer lies in D&C 93.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. (D&C 93:29-32)

Agency is derived from being enlightened by the light of Christ and by being placed into spheres (environments) where we can independently make choices.

In our first estate, we were born innocent, and developed until we were at full stature as spirits. The same life giving Light radiated in us there, and we were faced with choices within that sphere. Obviously, a third of the host of heaven chose to rebel with Satan and were cast out. The rest of us are privileged, because of our agency, to continue our progression by entering mortality, where we were once again "born innocent" into a new sphere of existence.

Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. (D&C 93:38)

Here in this second estate, we are in a new sphere, where the light of Christ enlightens us manifesting itself as conscience. We are faced with choices, and are allowed to act independently, and therefore have agency.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 17, 2010 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

But that's not all... Because of our agency, we all inevitably sin, and thus experience spiritual death. Another birth awaits the faithful, where we will be cleansed from our sins - innocent again before God, quickened in the inner man. Our father Adam was the first to experience this rebirth, as he was redeemed from the fall.

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; (Moses 6:59-60)

And again, our accountability as free agents increases, after we are "born again".

For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation. (D&C 82:3)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Webster]

It seems odd that, "Agency is derived from being enlightened by the light of Christ," and that, "Because of our agency, we all inevitably sin." The two statements taken together seem a little problematic.

[Vanhin]

It seems odd that, "Agency is derived from being enlightened by the light of Christ," and that, "Because of our agency, we all inevitably sin." The two statements taken together seem a little problematic.

Well you left out the statement in it's entirety.

"Agency is derived from being enlightened by the light of Christ and by being placed into spheres (environments) where we can independently make choices."

What I mean is "in mortality" we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

But in any case how are they problematic? You didn't provide me with any explanation to respond to.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Justice]

This is going to seem like an odd direction to go on this subject, but I want to make a point before I try to explain.

Did Jesus really walk on water?

Vanhin, As a note of interest, you and bytor have the same answer (accorind to my understanding)... you just chose different methods of saying it. You, obviously, have a more thorough description, but aren't you basically saying what bytor is saying?

And, did you say we were born as spirits just to make me happy? :)

One last thought on your comments, do you mean "light of Christ" or "light of truth," or do you use the 2 terms synonomously?

[applepansy]

What is agency, exactly?

From lds.org: Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves.

When do you have it?

Also from lds.org: God's children have power to choose; they had this ability even before they were born.

It was easier to copy and paste than use my foggy brain today....sorry

One thing that I'd like to point out is that agency is not the same for all. For instance, someone in prison does not have the same agency as someone who is not.

lds.org quoted again: In this life, people continue to have agency; even if their personal freedoms are restricted or taken away, they can choose how to feel and react.

As we make choices in life, bad choices bring fewer choices next time and good choices bring more choices. So someone in prison still chose himself right into the situation and through his agency he can choose himself out.

Moral agency covers a man's given ability to choose how moral he will be, or whether or not he will obey law. He does not have to have all laws and commandments available in order to exercise his moral agency.

Agreed

Thoughts?

My oldest son taught me a lot about agency and while as a parent I tried to restrict his choices to hurt himself in the end I didn't have that power. Agency is God-given and no matter how hard we try we cannot infringe on it.... inflluence? maybe... but not infringe.

Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, May 1988, 69–72

Ever and always [the Atonement] offers amnesty from transgression and from death if we will but repent. . . . Repentance is the key with which we can unlock the prison from inside . . . , and agency is ours to use it.

Edited August 18, 2010 by applepansy
addition underlined

[Webster]

It seems odd that, "Agency is derived from being enlightened by the light of Christ," and that, "Because of our agency, we all inevitably sin." The two statements taken together seem a little problematic.

It almost sounds like that which we gain from being enlighted by the Light of Christ (a good thing), is that which causes us to sin (a bad thing). Maybe it would help if I said it's a bit paradoxical rather than problematic. If you still can't see it, don't worry about it.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin, As a note of interest, you and bytor have the same answer (accorind to my understanding)... you just chose different methods of saying it. You, obviously, have a more thorough description, but aren't you basically saying what bytor is saying?

Yes, we are saying the same thing. Two different spheres of existence, each with opportunities to progress through the use of agency.

And, did you say we were born as spirits just to make me happy? :)

Well, I want you to be happy, yes, but I said it because I believe it. :)

One last thought on your comments, do you mean "light of Christ" or "light of truth," or do you use the 2 terms synonomously?

They are synonyms to me. Also, the term intelligence can be used synonymously with the light of Christ. For example, in an all time favorite article of mine, President boyd K. Packer, of the Twelve, makes the following statement.

The Light of Christ existed in you before you were born (see D&C 93:23, 29–30), and it will be with you every moment that you live and will not perish when the mortal part of you has turned to dust. It is ever there. (LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Light of Christ)

Notice the scriptural reference he uses to back up his statement - D&C 93:23, 29-30 which are the scriptures I am referencing.

I also think that some of these terms have more than one meaning. Take intelligence(s), for example. The Guide to the Scriptures has this definition.

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. (Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

For many of you who are familiar with my ramblings out here, that is an oft quoted reference by me. I think that it is interesting that the intelligence GS reference says "See also Light, Light of Christ; Spirit; Truth".

I especially think that Pres. Packer's comments are significant to this discussion, since I think that agency is tied to the light of Christ in us. Pres. Packer makes the same observation in his article, but I will just quote the following which shows how it is tied to agency.

Conscience affirms the reality of the Spirit of Christ in man. It affirms, as well, the reality of good and evil, of justice, mercy, honor, courage, faith, love, and virtue, as well as the necessary opposites—hatred, greed, brutality, jealousy (see 2 Ne. 2:11, 16). Such values, though physically intangible, respond to laws with cause-and-effect relationships as certain as any resulting from physical laws (see Gal. 6:7–9). The Spirit of Christ can be likened unto a “guardian angel” for every person. (LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Light of Christ)

Since the light of Christ is the divine influence that allows us to distinguish between good and evil, how can we truly have agency without it? (see LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Unspeakable Gift) also, if we were not placed into situations with opposing choices, how can we have agency? That is why I say both elements, the spirit of Christ, and an environment where we can freely choose between good and evil are necessary for agency to truly exist.

Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. (2 Ne. 2:16)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Webster]

I wish Justice had included the sixth reference to agency from the scriptures:

D&C 64:

18 And now, verily I say that it is expedient in me that my servant Sidney Gilbert, after a few weeks, shall return upon his business, and to his agency in the land of Zion;

Agency in this case does not follow the normal definition we usually use in church.

(There are also two other references that are not in the scriptures where the Lord demonstrates that He knows how to use the word Agency correctly as defined by the dictionary.)

I actually think this reference should be included because it has a lot to do with learning about the meaning of Agency as used in our scriptures. I think that all references to agents and agency in our scriptures use the exact same definition.

[Vanhin]

It almost sounds like that which we gain from being enlighted by the Light of Christ (a good thing), is that which causes us to sin (a bad thing). Maybe it would help if I said it's a bit paradoxical rather than problematic. If you still can't see it, don't worry about it.

I think I understand.

Well, I do think our agency is a good thing, even though we sometimes use it to make bad decisions. I guess my comment was much like D&C 29:36, which says that "third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from [God] because of their agency;"

If it wasn't for our agency, we could not do evil, and consequently we could not do good either. :) So, for agency to exist, it is important that we have both the choice between good and evil and the ability to discern the difference, which is a manifestation of the light of Christ. That's the connection I was trying to make.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Justice]

I wish Justice had included the sixth reference to agency from the scriptures:

I was getting to it. :)

So, does anyone think Christ actually walked on water?

Why? Why not?

[Justice]

You know, Vanhin, to disagree as often as we do, we sure agree on a lot of things. Your descriptive post was very much like writings I have in my study journals, even word for word at times. :)

[Justice]

Oh and Apple, very good comments. I believe that we always have moral agency, regardless of what choices are available, which is what President Packer was speaking about.

Also, there is another side. As was also stated in your post, we can lose freedoms by choices we make, which removes our ability to choose those things. In my mind, that limit is a limit of agency. We cannot be held accountable for choices we cannot make.

Perhaps I have a wierd way of wording it, or perhaps my words aren't what others would use, but it makes sense to me.

There are different definitions to agency, as Webster pointed out.

One of the requirements in having agency is to have a choice. If there is only vanilla you cannot have agency to choose anything else, even though you are free to choose. If options are removed, or not available for a choice, then you cannot exercise your agency to make those choices. That limits or removes your agency in that thing, and that's how Satan planned to "destroy the agency of man." It's not that he could have taken our moral agency away, or prevented us from making choices, he had to remove options from the choice set, thus destroying our agency to choose those things... namely Christ in that case. Remove the ability for Christ to be born to a mortal mother and you remove the blood atonement, thereby eliminating our ability to choose to follow Christ back to the Father... or "destroying the agency of man."

That's how I view it and word it. So, I completely agree with what President Packer said. Thank you for sharing that.

[Webster]

I think Jesus walked on water. Why do I believe it? I believe the scriptures are true, and they say He did. And also because I believe God can do that, and Jesus is God.

(By the way, I don't believe Satan proposed to remove choices like good and evil. The choice he would have removed is the choice to be saved or not. I believe he proposed to destroy legal agency and thereby accountability. This would allow him to tell others they would be saved regardless of what they chose or did.)

[Traveler]

Sometimes I think we miss the point. If agency was simply the matter of making a choice then I believe the term agency would not have been used in scripture. The legal meaning of agency is not really choice. It means to have legal right to represent or act for someone else. For example an insurance agent has the legal right to act in behalf of the company they represent to enter into and create binding contracts.

Therefore I submit that agency is not a simple choice but only the power to become a representative of G-d and the society of the kingdom of G-r or to become a citizen of the devil and his kingdom. I believe that when we think we can serve two masters we are following a cleaver illusion and thereby become subservient to Satan.

The Traveler

[Webster]

Great analogy of the legal type of agency to which I referred. I agree that we become either an agent of Christ or not based on who we serve and who we represent.

To me, the way the scriptures use the term agency in a theological sense seems to be making a different point. The scriptures always refer to humans as agents unto themselves, therefore, I would say that the idea of agency in the scriptures is that we legally represent ourselves. Each person is allowed to follow their own will (as an agent acts in behalf of his principal), and each person is accountable for their actions (as the principal is legally bound by the actions of his agent). I see agency as the foundation upon which all accountability rests.

We can use our agency to act in our own behalf and legally bind ourselves through contract (a covenant of baptism) to become an agent of Christ. Becoming an agent of Christ is a second type of agency that's implied in the scriptures, but not officially named an agency. I would say that while we may become an agent of Righteousness or wickedness, we still retain our individual agency as well–we still remain accountable for all we do.

Satan claimed none would be lost. I believe he wanted to destroy agency so he could convince others that they could be unaccountable and have a mortal experience without any risk. God's plan requires agency because it relies on our being accountable and our ability to make legally binding covenants of salvation with Him.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Webster
Fixed a typo

[rameumptom]

Agency has to do with the continual struggle between Chaos and Order. We have agency because there is Chaos in the world, but Christ's atonement can save us from complete chaos/entropy: Outer Darkness; and can bring us into celestial order. Without the atonement (see 2 Ne 2) there would be no agency for mankind, as we would invariably be affected by the laws of relativity as they pertain to entropy. IOW, we would eventually, as ordered beings, sink back into complete chaos.

See my blog on this article:

Joel's Monastery: Gospel Scholarship: Order out of Chaos

As for the seeming contradiction between the two verses, there really is none. One is talking about all time, and the other is focused on mortality. Agency is a constant in the premortal sphere. Yet in the Garden of Eden, it suddenly wasn't. When Adam chose chaos over order, he was in a fallen state. Only protecting the Tree of Life and providing for a Savior could save mankind from it. As the BoM teaches us, we would be forced to become devils. Why? Because we would go into entropy without the atonement, which had to be reinstated in the Garden through covenants, etc.

Edited August 18, 2010 by rameumptom

[Traveler]

My whole point is that I believe we make an unnecessary mistake when we attach a separate meaning to a term such as agency, which is unique strictly according to how it is used in scripture.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Holy cow. This is far better than I expected. It's amzing how much thought and study you have all put into agency.

Before I continue with my thoughts on agency I feel I need to make a point. I was hoping others would respond to the question for all to see. I know each have your belief about Christ walking on water, but only Webster chose to share his.

I think Jesus walked on water. Why do I believe it? I believe the scriptures are true, and they say He did. And also because I believe God can do that, and Jesus is God.

Good. Before I go on I want to tell you that I believe Christ walked on water too.

When you interpret scripture, or attempt to understand it, there are different methods people use. Some people use a method much like what you have demonstrated. They believe because the scripture says so. This is good, but the problem is it can lead to different interpretations and understandings because it's not based on "what we know." All scripture should be based on what we know.

This is why the Bible can be so difficult for many who are not members of the Church to understand. They do not have Joseph Smith's papers and journals, truths restored by him, modern prophets, the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, the gift of the Holy Ghost... etc. All they have is the Bible. So, their "what they know" base is smaller.

We can also use science to interpret scripture. Science can be "something we know."

OK now, as far as Christ walking on water, here's how my thinking goes:

We know that the face of water cannot support the weight of a man, so in order for a man to walk on it something has to happen. Water is water because it's a fluid made of a certain atom structure with certain molecules. That make up, called water, is fluid and cannot support the weight of a man who is walking with no other additions or changes.

Either the man must become lighter, or the water must become more dense and rigid.

So, if the man becomes lighter so that the water can support his weight, the miracle is that the man became lighter.

Or, if the water became more dense and rigid to support the weight of the man, then the miracle is that the water changed to something other than water.

Another thought is that the sea was tumultuous...

Matthew 14:

24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

We also know this because when Peter stepped out of the boat, the reason he began to sink is because the wind was blowing about him (presumably making waves) and he took his eye off the Savior.

So, if the water was made more dense and rigid then they weren't really walking on water, but something else... more dense and rigid than water.

If Christ made them light enough to "walk" on water, and their feet were actually being held and supported by the water, then they would have been tossed about by the waves, like they were riding a bucking bronco. It would have been difficult to maintain enough balance to look like they were walking on water.

It seems easier to believe they were basically hovering over the water where it looked like their feet were touching the water. But, if that's the case, they weren't technically walking on water, they were hovering or flying. This lends itself better to the story than the water was changed to a more dense and rigid state because Peter began to sink back into the water.

The fact is, regardless of what really happened, it looked like they were walking on water. The writer chose those words for other reasons. They also are symbolic of certain other things.

So, as I believe they "walked on water" I also understand that it was what the writer saw. I don't think they were actually "walking on water" the same was we walk on the dry ground because of the reasons I've mentioned.

So, this is what I mean by "scriptures need to be understood based on what we know." When you discount what you know you risk misunderstanding. This is why so many people believe in a Trinity, because they discount things they know, and they even admit it can't be understood. They simply say I believe it because the scriptures say so.

That's the point I wanted to make before I go on with agency.

I'll get back to agency later, after you have a chance to comment on this.

[mordorbund]

What is agency, exactly?

When do you have it?

Agency is the ability to act and not to be acted upon. I think that definition falls in well with what others were saying earlier with the legal definition and being agents for ourselves.

From 2 Nephi 2 that you referenced earlier, it looks like there are three things that are required for us to have agency:

• The agent must be created.

  For there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

• The agent must be given a choice.

  Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

• The choices must involve different consequences

  And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

  Elsewhere Jacob says that were it not for the Atonement, we would all be automatically damned, which dovetails neatly into this point here.

And here we have the 3 doctrinal pillars of Creation, Fall, and Atonement.

One thing that I'd like to point out is that agency is not the same for all. For instance, someone in prison does not have the same agency as someone who is not.

I take a small disagreement with this. I'll explain by clearing up the second point more. Lehi gives a great illustration of choice by depicting the two trees in the garden. But to have a choice, there really only needs to be one tree. Adam can either eat the fruit of that tree, or not eat the fruit of the tree (the null choice is also a choice). Because of point 3, that tree has to be the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (otherwise there's no difference in consequence of the two choices, and hence, no real choice).

In order for you to not have agency over something, there has to be a physical restriction. No matter how much I want to, how much I try, I will never accelerate faster or slower than 9.81 meters per second square in a vacuum. I have absolutely no agency there. I do not have the agency to smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day because my system isn't acclimated at all to smoking. In that respect, a chain smoker has more agency there than I do. But we both have the same agency to smoke this cigarette that's before us right now. The person in prison does not have agency to punch me out, because there is a physical restriction there.

[mordorbund]

If options are removed, or not available for a choice, then you cannot exercise your agency to make those choices. That limits or removes your agency in that thing, and that's how Satan planned to "destroy the agency of man." It's not that he could have taken our moral agency away, or prevented us from making choices, he had to remove options from the choice set, thus destroying our agency to choose those things... namely Christ in that case. Remove the ability for Christ to be born to a mortal mother and you remove the blood atonement, thereby eliminating our ability to choose to follow Christ back to the Father... or "destroying the agency of man."

There are a number of ways that a system could be created without agency (I have to talk in the hypothetical here because I'm not sure if our agency could actually be removed so long as there's an Atonement).

Everything that's created could have a physical/biological law that dictates how it acts. If you smell food, you drool. If it's daytime, you work in the garden until evening and eat your food at the end of the day. You can't choose to be lazy because you're hardwired to do this every day.

Everyone gets the same reward. Iroically, this is the state we would all in without an Atonement. Except, where the scriptures teach that this would leave us damned, Lucifer seemed to persuade that he would save (I guess you get a new regime, you get new laws ).

Now that I'm looking at these, I see they remove 2 of the 3 items I listed earlier. So I guess you could also create the system so that while the agents could choose to do wrong, the opportunity never presents itself. Think of The Man That Corrupted Hadleyburg by Mark Twain.

One last thought is what John Taylor seemed to think was Satan's plan. From Mediation and Atonement, chapter 11:

There are other questions mixed up with this rebellion besides those above referred to, and those questions are directly connected with the atonement. In the event of man having his free will and being subject to the power of temptation, the weakness of the flesh, the allurements of the world, and the powers of darkness, it was known that he must necessarily fall, and being fallen, it would be impossible for him to redeem himself, and that, according to an eternal law of justice, it would require an infinite, expiatory atonement to redeem man, to save him from the effects and ruin of the Fall, and to place him in a condition where he could again reinstated in the favor of God, according to the eternal laws of justice and mercy; and find his way back to the presence of the Father. Satan (it is possible) being opposed to the will of his Father, wished to avoid the responsibilities of this position, and rather than assume the consequences of the acceptance of the plan of the Father, he would deprive man of his free agency, and render it impossible for him to obtain that exaltation which God designed. It would further seem probable that he refused to take the position of redeemer, and assume all the consequences associated therewith, but he did propose, as stated before, to take another plan and deprive man of his agency, and he probably intended to make men atone for their own acts by an act of coercion, and the shedding of their own blood as an atonement for their sins; therefore, he says, “I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost; and surely I will do it; wherefore, give me thine honor.”

[Vanhin]

When you interpret scripture, or attempt to understand it, there are different methods people use. Some people use a method much like what you have demonstrated. They believe because the scripture says so. This is good, but the problem is it can lead to different interpretations and understandings because it's not based on "what we know." All scripture should be based on what we know.

I think a more correct statement is that "Scripture is based on truth, and our acceptance of it should be based on faith."

We may know many truths, and we may be in error about some things that we think are true, and we may not know the truth about everything.

It is quite possible that some other phenomenon, unknown to us at this time, is responsible for allowing the Savior to walk on water than the ones you offered or any other explanation one might offer based on what we think we know about such things. Clearly the people of Christ's time did not know as much about the physical properties of water, and science as we do in our day, and it would not have made one difference in their ability to interpret scripture correctly and accept the truth on faith.

The bottom line is that God performed a miracle, by walking on water. He was able to traverse the sea without a boat or a plane, and without swimming. What was the catalyst for allowing him to walk on water? The answer is in the scriptures in question.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? (Matthew 14:28-31)

The catalyst is faith. Unwavering faith in the Lord Jesus Christ would have allowed Peter to continue walking on water. There is a great lesson in that which concerns the topic at hand, namely interpreting scripture. To fully understand what I mean we need to understand what faith is. Here's what the great teacher Alma said about faith.

And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true. (Alma 32:21)

We don't have to know how something works to have faith in it. It is good enough to simply recognize the truth, that Christ did walk on water, and that by faith in Christ, we can come to Him and walk the path that He walks.

I don't need to know how the Atonement works, to have hope in the redemption from sin and death that it provides. I can step forward, in faith, by repenting of my sins and by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, and I will find that my sins are washed away. Then I know, perfectly, the truth that through Christ I can be forgiven - something I only hoped for at first. But did I need to know how it works to arrive at the correct interpretation the scriptures that led me to repent? No, I only needed faith, which is a hope in things that I may not yet understand, which are nonetheless true.

The scriptures are understood by revelation, which is a product of faith. Then we know for ourselves the truth.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 19, 2010 by Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

What is agency, exactly?

Agency is an eternal principle, long before GOD was GOD. This is the force for existment as spirits. It is also a gift that is bestowed upon humanity to ACT and not to be ACTED UPON. Joseph Smith once stated:

We deem it a just principle, and it is one the force of which we believe ought to be duly considered by every individual, that all men are created equal, and that all have the privilege of thinking for themselves upon all matters relative to conscience. Consequently, then, we are not disposed, had we the power, to deprive any one of exercising that free independence of mind which heaven has so graciously bestowed upon the human family as one of its choicest gifts. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 2:6-7)

However, agency "TO ACT" will be removed when punishment rolls around for humanity if any sin is left undone – they will become ACTED UPON as Lehi stated, thus removing his or her agency to fufill this requirement.

And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. (2Ne.2:26)

Looking back at our premortal council when the plan of our Heavenly Father and Lucifer's proposed modifications to it were before the council, the FATHER's plan was accepted with joy by the righteous spirits, while the rest demand an easier route to salvation. The foundation of this plan was the principle of "moral agency". We had the ability to choose, gain knowledge, and experience in preparation for eventual Godhood. President Ezra Taft Benson observed this - "...the right of choice…runs like a golden thread throughout the gospel plan" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson p. 81). Justice, it is the core fabricate of our existment as Joseph described in the King Follett sermon. As we understand in that council, the Gospel of Jesus Christ involved considerable risks with allowing us the ability choose for ourselves and make mistakes, to sin, to rebel, to disobey, and to transgress divine laws. But, the rewards out weigh divine justice (no pun intended here ).

I can cite many quotations here, it seems our agency is nothing more than a slight form of restricted choices (agency) but not coercion as Lucifer wanted us to have (ACTED UPON). You know Justice, every day our agency may be on a collision course with others (agency)? How we avoid or reconcile such collisions is much of what the Lord's great plan of happiness is all about. As we learn to accommodate the agency of others through tolerance, persuasion, patience, long-suffering, compassion, and kindness, we gradually begin to acquire and nurture the traits of godliness required to regain the presence of our Heavenly Father and His Son.