The role of Mary in the LDS Church

[dahlia]

As you might imagine for a former Catholic, Mary was a big deal, both personally (the whole mother thing) and in her veneration by the Church.

How do LDS view Mary - do you consider she was a virgin? Does it make any difference? Do you ask the Virgin for guidance (and before I get responses about worshiping anyone other than God, Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, they don't pray to her as a god). Do you look to Mary as a model for mothers?

Thanks.

[pam]

As LDS yes we consider her a virgin when Christ was born. Since she did have other children with her husband Joseph she was of course not always a virgin.

As far as asking her for guidance we do not.

[Wingnut]

Do you ask the Virgin for guidance (and before I get responses about worshiping anyone other than God, Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, they don't pray to her as a god).

Unfortunately, not all Catholics understand or have a grasp on the difference. The majority of Catholics I've known pray to Mary. I still don't agree with the practice behind the clarification you've offered, though.

[Hemidakota]

As you might imagine for a former Catholic, Mary was a big deal, both personally (the whole mother thing) and in her veneration by the Church.

How do LDS view Mary - do you consider she was a virgin? Does it make any difference? Do you ask the Virgin for guidance (and before I get responses about worshiping anyone other than God, Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, they don't pray to her as a god). Do you look to Mary as a model for mothers?

Thanks.

I do share your sense of questioning. I was a former Catholic and never understood why people would pray to her or not GOD directly. Even after the parish priest would explain the church’s views, it still left a hole of doubt why can’t we pray directly.

Years ago, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie was asked the same question concerning Mary’s being an intercessor:

Question: (partially posted) “Can we speak too highly of her whom the Lord has blessed above all women?”

Answer: “There was only one Christ, and there is only one Mary. Each was noble and great in preexistence, and each was foreordained to the ministry he or she performed. We cannot but think that the Father would choose the greatest female spirit to be the mother of his Son, even as he chose the male spirit like unto him to be the Savior. This is not to say that we should give any heed or credence to the false doctrines that say that Mary has been assumed bodily into heaven; that she is an intercessor who hears prayers and pleads with her Son on behalf of those who pray to her; or that she should be esteemed as co-redemptrix with the Redeemer—all of which are part of a great system of worship that did not originate in the courts on high. As our spirits recoil from these perversions of true religion, we should nonetheless maintain a balanced view and hold up Mary with that proper high esteem which is hers.”

Even Mary’s cousin, Elisabeth, was moved upon by the Holy Ghost (see Luke 1:46-52) and pays homage to Mary as the mother of the Son of God. However, this homage was well deserved and continues to this day as part of a perfect testimony of the goodness and grace of Mary who was foreordained to bear GOD's Son in mortality.

Is she a model of piety for all LDS women to follow? The answer would be “YES”…but, need to allow uniqueness to each LDS sister in the kingdom, adding their own personality flair.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Dravin]

How do LDS view Mary - do you consider she was a virgin?

LDS Scripture on the subject refers to her as being a virgin, for instance

1 Nephi 11 and Alma 7 .

Do you ask the Virgin for guidance (and before I get responses about worshiping anyone other than God, Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, they don't pray to her as a god).

Nope, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son.

Do you look to Mary as a model for mothers?

She was undoubtedly a virtuous and amazing woman but there really isn't a lot about her in the scriptures other than her being virtuous. What I mean is that you tend to see woman held up as examples using examples from their lives, we have some examples of her sacrifice and her love, admirable qualities both, but we don't really know much about, by examples recorded in the scriptures, what kind of mother she was beyond her obvious deep love for her son and her chastising of him when he got left behind because he was teaching at the temple when he was a younger.

It'd kinda be like holding Joseph up as a model father, I'm sure he was a great man and father (who else but a remarkable man would be given the privileged he was) but we just don't know much about him and so he makes a sketchy (as in lacking in details) model to use.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Dravin

[Hemidakota]

Let me also add, she was no more than 15 at the time when this all happen.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Hemidakota

[dahlia]

It'd kinda be like holding Joseph up as a model father, I'm sure he was a great man and father (who else but a remarkable man would be given the privileged he was) but we just don't know much about him and so he makes a sketchy (as in lacking in details) model to use.

Good point! I grew up in the pre-Vatican II church and we had May for Mary, monthly novena, and much Mary-devotion. It is possible that much folklore was added to the small biblical record of Mary's life.

I didn't want to make the first post too long, but I did think of the 'other children' issue. That is problematic for Catholics. The first time I ever heard such a thing (and this after 12 yrs of Catholic school), was in a college class on the bible as literature. Catholics explained the term 'brother' when applied to James (? I'm not a bible scholar) was that he was as close to Jesus as a brother, but of course, Jesus had no brothers because Mary was always a virgin.

This info came to me as a great shock as since we were not encouraged to read the bible (but rather the catechism and church pronouncements), I'm sure many Catholics had no idea that Jesus may have had a brother(s?). I guess that accepting that would make it almost impossible to accept the idea of Mary as always a Virgin, which might have decreased the veneration accorded to her.

[Elgama]

It'd kinda be like holding Joseph up as a model father, I'm sure he was a great man and father (who else but a remarkable man would be given the privileged he was) but we just don't know much about him and so he makes a sketchy (as in lacking in details) model to use.

We do know he had compassion as he didn't have Mary stoned, we know he had Faith because he listened to God, and we know he loved a child who was not his own, as his own and taught him a trade. He clearly schooled him in the scriptures. And when he went missing they loved Jesus enough to return and find him. As a carpenter we know he would have been strong and worked hard to take care of his family. We know he did everything God asked him to protect them/

I think Joseph is a model father.

[Dravin]

I think Joseph is a model father.

And? I never said he wasn't. I said we lack details. This is all besides the point, Mary nor Joseph are singled out by the Church as examples of parenthood. At least not in my experience, in fact I tend to hear Lehi held up more in part because we see him dealing with unruly children. Something most of us can better identify with as opposed to a single incident (going back to find Jesus and the account focuses on Mary and Jesus not Joseph) from the singular experience of raising the Son of God.

Catholics explained the term 'brother' when applied to James (? I'm not a bible scholar) was that he was as close to Jesus as a brother, but of course, Jesus had no brothers because Mary was always a virgin.

There is also Matthew 13:55-56. Several brothers and sisters mentioned.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Dravin

[mnn727]

We respect Mary, but we don't venerate her, and having married into a RCC family - we don't talk about her anywhere near what RCC members do.

[Hemidakota]

But I do venerate our Heavenly Mother...

[Maya]

As LDS yes we consider her a virgin when Christ was born. Since she did have other children with her husband Joseph she was of course not always a virgin.

As far as asking her for guidance we do not.

Can someone show me where it says Jesus had YOUNGER sisters or brothers, or that Joseph had some more kids WITH Mary.

What if those called Jeus brothers were from Josephs earlier marriage? What if he was an older man? Where does it say they were BOTH young? Maybe Virgin Mary WAS a virgin all her life..... not that this would be in any way important for faith....

[pam]

Matthew 13:55

55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mark 6:3

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

“Mark 6:3 tells us that Jesus had four younger brothers and at least two sisters, the children of Mary and Joseph. The sisters’ names have not been preserved, but the brothers were called James (in the Hebrew, Jacob), Joses (in the Hebrew, Joseph, after his father), Simon, and Judas or Juda (also known as Jude). (See also Matt. 13:55.)

As far as virginity:

Matthew 1:24-25

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This would insinuate that they consumated their marriage after Jesus was born.

I've never heard that Jesus had siblings from a former marriage of Joseph. First time I've ever heard that.

*edit* I just did some reading and it does state that Joseph was previously married. It appears that Catholics believe that Jesus' brothers were from a previous marriage but other Christian sects and faiths do not.

Edited August 22, 2010 by pam

[Wingnut]

I've never heard that Jesus had siblings from a former marriage of Joseph. First time I've ever heard that.

*edit* I just did some reading and it does state that Joseph was previously married. It appears that Catholics believe that Jesus' brothers were from a previous marriage but other Christian sects and faiths do not.

I've never heard that either. Where is the reference you came across?

[pam]

Something I googled. Let me find it again.

[pam]

One was from Carm. The article pretty much laid out exactly what I have always believed and was always taught.

Did Mary Have Other Children? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

The other from yahoo answers is not friendly to Catholics so I would rather not post, but it did provide to me the scriptures that I posted earlier in this thread.

[Guest]

Good point! I grew up in the pre-Vatican II church and we had May for Mary, monthly novena, and much Mary-devotion. It is possible that much folklore was added to the small biblical record of Mary's life.

I didn't want to make the first post too long, but I did think of the 'other children' issue. That is problematic for Catholics. The first time I ever heard such a thing (and this after 12 yrs of Catholic school), was in a college class on the bible as literature. Catholics explained the term 'brother' when applied to James (? I'm not a bible scholar) was that he was as close to Jesus as a brother, but of course, Jesus had no brothers because Mary was always a virgin.

This info came to me as a great shock as since we were not encouraged to read the bible (but rather the catechism and church pronouncements), I'm sure many Catholics had no idea that Jesus may have had a brother(s?). I guess that accepting that would make it almost impossible to accept the idea of Mary as always a Virgin, which might have decreased the veneration accorded to her.

I hope you meant that Catholics were not encouraged to read the Bible pre-Vatican II. I'm Catholic post Vatican II converted to LDS 9 years ago. While Catholic, we were encouraged to read the Catholic Bible (not KJV or any other version) and study it with the catechism. What is discouraged is having your own understanding of the Bible. For example, as an LDS, I am encouraged to seek and study the scriptures for my own personal application. A Catholic would discourage that to prevent people from having their own interpretation of what the bible passages mean that is different from what the catechism teaches.

Yes, Mary is supposed to only intercede for us in the Catholic faith but I know that a lot of Catholics, including devout ones, go way beyond that. I have an aunt that has a big image of Mary in an altar that is considered "miraculous". They claim she cries real tears when she is sad and that her face changes expression. They pray the rosary everyday facing this image and have mass every Wednesday infront of the image. They have Marian devotees coming to her house from all over the world. This is considered normal Catholic behavior.

LDS holds Mary in high regard just like they hold Joseph, her husband, in high regard, just like they hold Joseph Smith in high regard. They all have special missions in this life that contribute to the eternal salvation of all humankind.

[Dravin]

While Catholic, we were encouraged to read the Catholic Bible (not KJV or any other version) and study it with the catechism.

If I may ask, to what end? Is it simply with the idea of reinforcing the interpretations and statements of the catechism as Biblically based? Or to create greater familiarity with the verses themselves (so you can quote them chapter and verse kinda thing)? Or is the idea simply that studying the scriptures invites the spirit?

I realize it's probably a combination, probably including some I didn't mention in my brief examples.

[Guest]

If I may ask, to what end? Is it simply with the idea of reinforcing the interpretations and statements of the catechism as Biblically based? Or to create greater familiarity with the verses themselves (so you can quote them chapter and verse kinda thing)? Or is the idea simply that studying the scriptures invites the spirit?

I realize it's probably a combination, probably including some I didn't mention in my brief examples.

To know the Word of God, of course. The Bible is read at every mass - 4 readings - one reading from the OT, one reading from the Acts and Epistles, one reading from the Psalms, and then one reading from the 4 Gospels. At EVERY mass. A sermon about the 4 readings follows. That doesn't mean that it is the ONLY time a Catholic should read the Bible.

[dahlia]

Wow. A lot of discussion here. I'm learning a lot. Regarding reading the Bible and the Bible in the Mass, of course I looked at a Bible and heard parts of the Bible at Mass, but all I can say is we didn't read the Bible in religion class (which I had every school day for 12 years). We learned 'bible stories' of course, but more of the lives of the saints, history of the Church, and Catholic theology. No way did we become as familiar with the Bible the way many Protestants are.

I'd add that despite what the Catholic church says about venerating and not worshiping Mary, 'Mary worship' is probably an accurate description of what goes on for many devout Catholics. As a child, I had a May altar for years. Was that worship or veneration? Don't know. I also think a large part of it was cultural - it's May (Mary's month), you get a statue and some nice stuff to go around it and compete with your friends for the nicest altar. Kind of like the cultural aspects of celebrating Easter with a basket and candy. The religious aspect has long since faded away and you're left with culturally based behaviors.

[Guest]

Wow. A lot of discussion here. I'm learning a lot. Regarding reading the Bible and the Bible in the Mass, of course I looked at a Bible and heard parts of the Bible at Mass, but all I can say is we didn't read the Bible in religion class (which I had every school day for 12 years). We learned 'bible stories' of course, but more of the lives of the saints, history of the Church, and Catholic theology. No way did we become as familiar with the Bible the way many Protestants are.

I'd add that despite what the Catholic church says about venerating and not worshiping Mary, 'Mary worship' is probably an accurate description of what goes on for many devout Catholics. As a child, I had a May altar for years. Was that worship or veneration? Don't know. I also think a large part of it was cultural - it's May (Mary's month), you get a statue and some nice stuff to go around it and compete with your friends for the nicest altar. Kind of like the cultural aspects of celebrating Easter with a basket and candy. The religious aspect has long since faded away and you're left with culturally based behaviors.

Come to think of it, you are correct Dahlia - in all my Catholic Religious Education classes from Kindergarten all through 2nd year of college, I have never once had a class that used the Catholic Bible as the textbook!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Note of interest:

The Strangite churches of the Restoration do not believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth. I personally cannot see how a church that uses the Book of Mormon can believe she wasn't a virgin, but they do.