Does Heavenly Father know what we are going to do before we do it?


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D&C 93:24 "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come" (this is Omniscient)

Bytor, do you have Apostle Maxwell's book, "All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience"? If so, read chapter 2.

So to answer this, it would be YES.

That scripture suggests that God doesn't have to travel in time then, if this is the definition of Omniscient. "as they were, and as they are to come" the past is the past and the future still has to come around. He can be all knowing without having to move around in time, I think the idea of time traveling to be all knowing is a science fiction fantasy idea.

If God was in all time all the time then He wouldn't experience anything. Experience requires the passage of time. Emotional expression also requires the passage of time. If God expresses emotion, weeping, joyful etc. then He must also recognize the passage of time, otherwise His emotion would be the same all the time, there would be no change in what is experienced. If there is no passage of time then God has no glory because His glory is dependent on bringing things to pass. Specifically, bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. If He is present in all time and there is no passage of time for Him then His glory is fixed. In order to have increasing and never ending glory, for my understanding, there has to be passage of time for God. And yet, He can still observe the future but cannot say that it has happened until it is actually brought to pass.

All knowing does not mean all experienced, to me. If it was knowledge alone that we needed, we wouldn't need to come here. Experience is just as valuable to God as it is for us to increase glory.

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That scripture suggests that God doesn't have to travel in time then, if this is the definition of Omniscient. "as they were, and as they are to come" the past is the past and the future still has to come around. He can be all knowing without having to move around in time, I think the idea of time traveling to be all knowing is a science fiction fantasy idea.

If God was in all time all the time then He wouldn't experience anything. Experience requires the passage of time. Emotional expression also requires the passage of time. If God expresses emotion, weeping, joyful etc. then He must also recognize the passage of time, otherwise His emotion would be the same all the time, there would be no change in what is experienced. If there is no passage of time then God has no glory because His glory is dependent on bringing things to pass. Specifically, bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. If He is present in all time and there is no passage of time for Him then His glory is fixed. In order to have increasing and never ending glory, for my understanding, there has to be passage of time for God. And yet, He can still observe the future but cannot say that it has happened until it is actually brought to pass.

All knowing does not mean all experienced, to me. If it was knowledge alone that we needed, we wouldn't need to come here. Experience is just as valuable to God as it is for us to increase glory.

GOD has to have "100-percent" knowledge of HIS state - meaning HIS realm within the Celestial Kingdom. This is the very distinct difference of HIM and that below HIM is Knowledge (not laboring with allowable offspring and greater weight of glory). Even within Celestial glory, I believe this will be the same among those three known states.

I posted something interesting when someone in past thread was trying to state that GOD was outside of time. I did state, GOD has time but not to our level of understanding but more on the order of Celestial time. Neither do I believe GOD celestial dormancy will be HIS end state.

The neatest part of those who shall inherit the highest state in the Celestial Kingdom, they may look upon the past (i.e. the Garden of Eden) and not only view it but also, feel the emotions and the experience of both Adams.

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The question itself assumes that God lives in linear time like we do. That would not be an accurate assumption. In an answer about angels, Joseph Smith said:

"But athey reside in the presence of God, on a globe clike a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord." (Doctrine and Covenants 130:7)

The Lord himself said The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes..." (Doctrine and Covenants 38:2)

We see things in terms of cause and effect because we have been given a "reckoning of time." (See Abraham chapter 3). That time can be designated by the Lord to various spheres speaks to his ability to manipulate it, that it may be artificial, and that he is outside it's influence.

The Lord sees cause and effect together, not as linear events, but connected in time. I suppose that he can see all the possible connections that are available and can then anticipate all possible outcomes. That keeps agency intact for us, working in a sphere that has been assigned a linear reckoning of time.

Whenever we seek to place human perceptual limitations on the Lord, simply because we cannot conceive of things differently, it doesn't necessary mean that our assumptions are correct.

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Spamlds, did I mentioned anything about linear time? The answer would be - NO! We simply do not have the capacity to grasp at this moment what would be celestial time. Just have to wait until we are there. Even if you could go back to the "seventh heaven" (celestial kingdom) described by the founding prophet, you will still be lost in seeking words and science in describing what was seen, heard, and how it was done to travel such distances.

To add to my earlier posting, President Young statement regarding those who inhabitant this celestialized earth with seeing the past:

This earth, when it becomes purified and sanctified, or celestialized, will become like a sea of glass; and a person, by looking into it, can know things past, present, and to come; though none but celestialized beings can enjoy this privilege. They will look into the earth, and the things they desire to know will be exhibited to them, the same as the face is seen by looking into a mirror. (JD, May 7, 1861, 9:87.)

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Spamlds, did I mentioned anything about linear time? The answer would be - NO!

OK, Hemidakota...I'm not sure if you were the one who posted original question, which was:

"Does Heavenly Father know what we are going to do before we do it?"

The very question itself uses the word "before." "Before" and "After" are elements of linear time. That is what I meant when I said the question itself makes an assumption that linear time is what God experiences.

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I think I am the one who first brought up time travel.

No, I don't think that is the only reason He knows what will happen.

yes, He helps people travel in time. Sorry, but it's kinda obvious.

Isaiah saw the future times, I have a really hard time understanding what he is trying to describe to me, though.

Lehi and Nephi were both taken forward in time to see the Christ born to the virgin Mary about 600 years before it happened. He didn't just tell them about it, He actually took them there. Nephi described what he was seeing.

These are just a couple of examples. I could think of more, like the entire book of Revelations for example.

Is it linear for Him? I have no idea. He created time as we know it, so I don't think He has any trouble with it.

Although, I'm pretty sure that 'time and eternity' means that at some point time will stop and eternity will not be measured the way our days are now. But, that's just my idea on it.

Hemi wrote:

"To add to my earlier posting, President Young statement regarding those who inhabitant this celestialized earth with seeing the past:

This earth, when it becomes purified and sanctified, or celestialized, will become like a sea of glass; and a person, by looking into it, can know things past, present, and to come; though none but celestialized beings can enjoy this privilege. They will look into the earth, and the things they desire to know will be exhibited to them, the same as the face is seen by looking into a mirror. (JD, May 7, 1861, 9:87.)"

You know, I really loved that, I totally get it. It makes more sense to me than any other explanation I've ever heard, Where did you find it? Can I search it on lds.org? I tried to explain this very thing to someone once, when I was a fairly new member, and they thought I was completely insane. :) I told them that , as celestial beings, we will be able to view things past, present, and future, at the power of thought. They practically ran away from me! I don't remember where I came up with that, maybe I read it somewhere, but it makes perfect sense to me.

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Sorry, Isaiah is prophesying, that is, telling what will happen in the future. He especially told us about the Messiah, who at that time, was yet to come...to this Earth.

He does that a whole, whole, whole lot.

:)

Although if someone was shown extraterrestrials, it would have been Abraham, in the Book of Abraham, and possibly Moses. They were both shown all of Gods creations. Are you talking about us, in the pre-existence?

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This is not an easy question in my mind. My wife is of the opinion that he does, but I'm not so sure. I do believe that Heavenly Father knows every outcome of decisions made and the chain of events that follow. But saying that he knows the choices I'm going to make before I make them seems counter to the his plan in the first place. He knows in any given situation the choices available to me and how each would play out, but does he really know the choice I'm going to make? What is the purpose of coming to this earth if he already knows the choices I'm going to make?

For instance when I'm driving home today, I can take one of 4 or 5 different routes home. I haven't made up my mind which one I'm going to take. As I'm driving I could change my mind at any point and take a different route.

I know this is deep, but if anyone has any council from any talks they've read or heard I would appreciate info on this topic.

Thoughts anyone?

Yes your wife is right, lol you can't surprise God.

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This is not an easy question in my mind. My wife is of the opinion that he does, but I'm not so sure. I do believe that Heavenly Father knows every outcome of decisions made and the chain of events that follow. But saying that he knows the choices I'm going to make before I make them seems counter to the his plan in the first place. He knows in any given situation the choices available to me and how each would play out, but does he really know the choice I'm going to make? What is the purpose of coming to this earth if he already knows the choices I'm going to make?

For instance when I'm driving home today, I can take one of 4 or 5 different routes home. I haven't made up my mind which one I'm going to take. As I'm driving I could change my mind at any point and take a different route.

I know this is deep, but if anyone has any council from any talks they've read or heard I would appreciate info on this topic.

Thoughts anyone?

Yes I believe G-d does know what we will do in this life before we do it. But I will go a step farther - so did we in the pre-existance. See D&C 93:31.

I will also submit that because many knew what they would do they rebelled in the fear of the truth of it being manifested to all in a way that they could not deny it.

The Traveler

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The question itself assumes that God lives in linear time like we do. That would not be an accurate assumption. In an answer about angels, Joseph Smith said:

"But athey reside in the presence of God, on a globe clike a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord." (Doctrine and Covenants 130:7)

The Lord himself said The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes..." (Doctrine and Covenants 38:2)

.

Even those two scriptures only suggest an observation of all time not an interaction of events at any time. When someone suggests time travel they are usually implying the ability to manipulate events at a given time and the ability to manipulate events prior to the first. I don't think God has the ability to do that. He certainly can see all things but at the same time recognizes the passage of time. There is a past, present and future even when He can see all. I think it is a jump, even with those scriptures to say that He can change the past.

Knowing all is easily accepted. I think the ability to time travel though is something that science fiction has injected into that teaching. Again, if God does not experience passage of time then there is no "bringing to pass" of anything. He can still "bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man" and see all and observe all like a globe of "glass and fire".

Even though we don't understand fully Gods ways that doesn't mean that we should make up some mysterious laws of the universe like time travel that He can master. There is nothing added to the gospel teaching to say that God can time travel. Is there any ability that would be taken away from almighty God if I say He can't time travel and yet see all? No. But by saying that He can't time travel gives Him the power to experience things. I think it actually diminishes God's power to say that He can time travel.

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Well, Jesus can walk on water, that doesn't take away his experience to swim, or sail.

He created the water, so he is master of it.

The wind and the waves obey his will.

God created time.

It obeys His will.

Sometimes He shows us the past or the future to educate us.

He does not need to change the past.

He is perfect and does not need second chances.

There will be an event causing time to no longer exist. It is called eternity.

That is why we are sealed for 'time and eternity'

It will be as He commands.

He has already had all of our experiences.

He already knows everything, what else is there for Him to learn?

Our existence, this Earth, is not here for Him to learn from us. It is here for us to learn from Him.

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Well, Jesus can walk on water, that doesn't take away his experience to swim, or sail.

He created the water, so he is master of it.

The wind and the waves obey his will.

God created time.

It obeys His will.

Sometimes He shows us the past or the future to educate us.

He does not need to change the past.

He is perfect and does not need second chances.

There will be an event causing time to no longer exist. It is called eternity.

That is why we are sealed for 'time and eternity'

It will be as He commands.

He has already had all of our experiences.

He already knows everything, what else is there for Him to learn?

Our existence, this Earth, is not here for Him to learn from us. It is here for us to learn from Him.

Exactly! so, there is no need for Him to time travel.

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My theory is: he's just so smart, and understands so many of the variables, and knows us so well, better than we know ourselves, that he guesses what we're going to do before we do it. Its not a question of seeing into the future, but rather discerning the future, or guessing at it, but its accurate. Anyone can guess the current of a river, or guess that a man will marry someone if he buys a ring, or kill a man if he is enraged holding a knife. But to a greater degree? He can predict the currents so well, he can prophesy accurately, and guess to whats going to happen and it does, and you can't prove him wrong. Thats my theory, and as far as i know isn't doctorine.

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Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer! I hope you've been doing well. :)

Even those two scriptures only suggest an observation of all time not an interaction of events at any time. When someone suggests time travel they are usually implying the ability to manipulate events at a given time and the ability to manipulate events prior to the first. I don't think God has the ability to do that. He certainly can see all things but at the same time recognizes the passage of time. There is a past, present and future even when He can see all. I think it is a jump, even with those scriptures to say that He can change the past.

Knowing all is easily accepted. I think the ability to time travel though is something that science fiction has injected into that teaching. Again, if God does not experience passage of time then there is no "bringing to pass" of anything. He can still "bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man" and see all and observe all like a globe of "glass and fire".

I think your understanding of time is presumptious. First, how do you know time is linear or synchronous? Also, "time" travel is far from science fiction. Third, our sensation of the "passage" of time is closely associated with entropy. Entropy creates the illusion that events are irreversible. You may be surprised to know that anciently mankind was more prone to accept a cyclical concept of time rather than a linear one. This cyclical understanding of time is actually supported by science. I'll provide some references when I get home.

In any case, this linear, irreversible passage of time that can be precisely measured by atomic clocks is a modern invention that although useful in providing a semblance of order, it isn't really an accurate portrayal of time.

Regards,

Finrock

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Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer! I hope you've been doing well. :)

I think your understanding of time is presumptious. First, how do you know time is linear or synchronous? Also, "time" travel is far from science fiction. Third, our sensation of the "passage" of time is closely associated with entropy. Entropy creates the illusion that events are irreversible. You may be surprised to know that anciently mankind was more prone to accept a cyclical concept of time rather than a linear one. This cyclical understanding of time is actually supported by science. I'll provide some references when I get home.

In any case, this linear, irreversible passage of time that can be precisely measured by atomic clocks is a modern invention that although useful in providing a semblance of order, it isn't really an accurate portrayal of time.

Regards,

Finrock

I didn't see the question as to how we view time rather whether time could be reversed or done over. Is what is passed, passed? Or when we say "to bring to pass" that is something that is potentially reversible? Is exaltation permanent then?

I perceive time as cyclical in the sense that I still have a round clock and the hands go around back to the same spot every 12 hours. How I perceive the passage of time is not the question. Don't get too side tracked with your discussion, although I welcome your explanation. Thanks.

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Thanks for the response. :)

I didn't see the question as to how we view time rather whether time could be reversed or done over. Is what is passed, passed? Or when we say "to bring to pass" that is something that is potentially reversible? Is exaltation permanent then?

I perceive time as cyclical in the sense that I still have a round clock and the hands go around back to the same spot every 12 hours. How I perceive the passage of time is not the question. Don't get too side tracked with your discussion, although I welcome your explanation. Thanks.

Perception of time is exactly the question. How we perceive time is exactly what muddles things up. Our perception of time is an illusion. It's presumptious to believe that our perception of time, which is an illusion, constitutes the actuality of time. Cyclical time predicts that eventually all things will be restored to there proper order, that entropy isn't permanent. Further, scientifically there is no reason why time is synchronous, unlike the rest of the phenomenon in the universe. Again, it is only because of entropy and the fact that we can't seem to escape entropy, that we perceive time as being irreversible.

Exaltation is a condition that doesn't experience entropy, ever. Exaltation is permanent.

Now I'm not claiming that I have the absolute answer to time, but I want to illustrate that it is somewhat naive to believe that our perception of time accurately reflects the reality of time, when in fact the reality of time is not as clear as we like to pretend and there is science to indicate that things are quite fantastical when it comes to time, if time even exists at all!

Regards,

Finrock

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Sorry as I'm not reading the whole thread, jsut commenting on the initial question... He doesn't KNOW what we're going to do at any given point in time, but he does know us well enough to have a nearly 100% accurate EXPECTATION of our future actions at any given moment. That means he seems to know what you are goign to do before you do it, but he's not too far ahead of us.
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Thanks for the response. :)

Perception of time is exactly the question. How we perceive time is exactly what muddles things up. Our perception of time is an illusion. It's presumptious to believe that our perception of time, which is an illusion, constitutes the actuality of time. Cyclical time predicts that eventually all things will be restored to there proper order, that entropy isn't permanent. Further, scientifically there is no reason why time is synchronous, unlike the rest of the phenomenon in the universe. Again, it is only because of entropy and the fact that we can't seem to escape entropy, that we perceive time as being irreversible.

Exaltation is a condition that doesn't experience entropy, ever. Exaltation is permanent.

Now I'm not claiming that I have the absolute answer to time, but I want to illustrate that it is somewhat naive to believe that our perception of time accurately reflects the reality of time, when in fact the reality of time is not as clear as we like to pretend and there is science to indicate that things are quite fantastical when it comes to time, if time even exists at all!

Regards,

Finrock

My point though is there is a difference between observation versus the ability to manipulate events that are considered passed. "To bring to pass" is God's term. No matter how He ultimately perceives it and is able to see all time, He still recognizes "bringing things to pass." If you think He is saying something there differently than what most people would take from that saying, please share. What does it mean to God, "to bring to pass"?

To me, it requires a passing of time so that nobody can go back and change what has happened. And it means that there is a value to making something happen that wasn't there before it happened. If God exists in all time, all the time, then there is no "bringing to pass" of anything and there is no value to having brought something to pass. We know that God's very glory is dependent on bringing things to pass. And His glory expands by doing so. If He was in all time, then His glory would not change by bringing anything to pass. So, what do you think it means to God, "to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man"?

There may be various ways to observe time, to perceive it. I don't think that is the point I am making other than whatever the way it has to include a basic rule that one cannot go back in time to change the events that occured.

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