Does Heavenly Father know what we are going to do before we do it?

[Seminarysnoozer]

There is and there isn't. There is a difference between knowing physics and standing at the edge of an arc confident that the massive pendulum won't break every bone in your body. Everybody flinches the first time because they haven't yet obtained the experience. That's why we entered mortality.

And the multiple times model (God exists outside of our time, meaning he can freely move backwards and forwards in it), which also means that God does know what we'll do before we do it.

I like this model because it more closely fits in with the "one eternal now" statement that's been thrown around. It also describes a God with more power than the other models do. You don't seem to think that God needs to travel in time, and I can respect that - but calling it "made up" is really quite unfair. All of the models listed above can be called made up - including yours. What we know about God is what he has revealed to us and the rest (as to how it all comes together) is left open.

Thanks for your response.

That is all that I was trying to explain with jayana, is that there is a difference between a vision or knowledge of what would happen in a given situation versus experiencing it. If there is such a thing as time travel, that would be the equivalent to experiencing it. And the value of such could be experienced over and over again. This doesn't fit with our understanding of Eternal Increase.

Think about the moment in time that you became a spirit child of God, which I think we can agree would be a moment in time that God had "increase" as part of His Eternal Increase. Now think about a time before that event, before it happened, if He could see that event in the future via time travel, in other words jump forward to that time and live the moment in which He had something added to His "Eternal Increase" He would have the same exact experience that He would have had if He didn't jump forward in time. So, the value of a time traveled experience would be the same as the time in which it was lived and therefore the "increase" experienced would also hold the same value for both times. If that is true then He could simply jump back in time, having perfect memory of everything and relive the experience thousands of times over and multiply His "increase" simply by living the experience over and over again.

Or ..... He can only see it happening in the future, as in what we commonly call a vision, or foresight and therefore has never really experienced it and so when it occurs in 'real time' then the gain or the increase as part of His "Eternal increase" is actually realized when the event occurs in real time. There was no "increase" to His "Eternal Increase" by just seeing it in the future. I am not saying that there was no value to seeing it in the future and I think that is where jayana is hung up on our conversation. I never said that there was no value, I am just saying the value of experiencing the event in real time is different than the value of a vision of a future event.

And when I say vision I am not arguing the exact method in which that is done with the exception of two major categories, one in which there is real time experienced verses a method in which there is just observation alone and not potential for interaction in real time. You are trying to outline the various methods in which that can occur, which I agree is part of the discussion but not the point I am trying to make. That If one could jump back and forth in time and re-experience an event as if it happened for the first time then the value of such event could be multiplied with each time it is run and I do not think that is how God has increase. So, to me, that concept of time travel is hard to accept in conjunction with what we believe about God's glory being "bringing to pass" the immortality and Eternal life of man.

Even in your model, you are in essence saying that He can observe different points which I suppose is fine, but if you are saying that He can jump into our timeline and experience an event to its full effect every time it is run, then I have a problem with it. Then if you say well, if He goes back to that event already experienced it doesn't hold the same value as the first time He experienced it then that is exactly what I was saying at the beginning of this whole conversation, and you would agree with me that time travel is not the same as a "vision", whatever model you want to use for "vision".

[mordorbund]

Thanks for your response.

That is all that I was trying to explain with jayana, is that there is a difference between a vision or knowledge of what would happen in a given situation versus experiencing it. If there is such a thing as time travel, that would be the equivalent to experiencing it. And the value of such could be experienced over and over again. This doesn't fit with our understanding of Eternal Increase.

Think about the moment in time that you became a spirit child of God, which I think we can agree would be a moment in time that God had "increase" as part of His Eternal Increase. Now think about a time before that event, before it happened, if He could see that event in the future via time travel, in other words jump forward to that time and live the moment in which He had something added to His "Eternal Increase" He would have the same exact experience that He would have had if He didn't jump forward in time. So, the value of a time traveled experience would be the same as the time in which it was lived and therefore the "increase" experienced would also hold the same value for both times. If that is true then He could simply jump back in time, having perfect memory of everything and relive the experience thousands of times over and multiply His "increase" simply by living the experience over and over again.

And I think this is where things are getting confusing. I don't know that the premortal life had the same notion of time that we experience today. I don't know that if there was time, that it was linear and sequential. Nor do I know that the notion of days, weeks, years, millenia, etc have any meaning in the life before this or the life after. These things are in this life.

A better illustration would be the moment in time that the flood occured. Let's say that God had to enter our world and time to flip a switch releasing the waters of the deep causing the flood (this makes it an experience and not just an observation or a pondered event). He is extremely sorrowful of their wickedness that broght this on themselves. From here, God exits our time and re-enters at the time of Enoch to tell him about the flood. "Do not weep" says Enoch. God is here crying over a past memory/experience (from his perspective). From Enoch's perspective, God is crying over a future event that has not yet been experienced.

What's more, God could perhaps relive the experience afresh if he decides to reenter the time of the flood and visit Noah even while God was releasing the waters of the deep. So yes, you are correct in asserting that this model allows God to have the same experience (really it's a similar experience, not exactly the same) over and over again. (re)Living that experience isn't what gives God his glory. It is the whole experience from beginning to end (our world and our time) that gives God his glory.

[Melissa569]

I think god knows our general nature, and he knows what we might be "inclined" to do in most situations. As well as what will happen as a result of the choices we are likely to make. But he also knows that we are very much capable of change at any time, and he hopes that we will listen to him and make positive changes.

Its sort of like how when 2 parents are going out of town for the weekend, and they tell their 17-ear-old son, "Ok-- no parties, no trouble, and no bringing girls over while we are gone!"

Mmmmm..... They probably wouldn't say those things, if they didn't at least suspect their son was strongly inclined to try them. Or maybe they just figure that's what ANY teenage boy might try. And in 99.99% of cases, they would be correct. All they can do is hope that their son has been listening to them, and that even if he does try it, he won't go overboard or do anything really stupid.

God has given us free will, and all he can do is encourage us to be smart. And if we're not smart, he can pretty much predict what's going to happen. Sort of like when you see someone who's had a few drinks picking up their car keys... You say, "Hey, if you drive drunk, you're either going to get in an accident, or a cop is going to see you driving funny and give you a DUI. Either way, you will lose your license, get hurt, or maybe even killed."

And say they drive anyway, and one or all those things happen. You're not a psychic, but you knew it because that is the pattern of nature and the world. That's the way things go. Well, god knows the way EVERYTHING goes, and he has far more detailed and complex foresight. In fact-- sometimes I think that's all a "psychic" really is. Someone with extremely detailed foresight, who can piece together possible chain of event outcomes better than most others.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Melissa569

[Seminarysnoozer]

And I think this is where things are getting confusing. I don't know that the premortal life had the same notion of time that we experience today. I don't know that if there was time, that it was linear and sequential. Nor do I know that the notion of days, weeks, years, millenia, etc have any meaning in the life before this or the life after. These things are in this life.

A better illustration would be the moment in time that the flood occured. Let's say that God had to enter our world and time to flip a switch releasing the waters of the deep causing the flood (this makes it an experience and not just an observation or a pondered event). He is extremely sorrowful of their wickedness that broght this on themselves. From here, God exits our time and re-enters at the time of Enoch to tell him about the flood. "Do not weep" says Enoch. God is here crying over a past memory/experience (from his perspective). From Enoch's perspective, God is crying over a future event that has not yet been experienced.

What's more, God could perhaps relive the experience afresh if he decides to reenter the time of the flood and visit Noah even while God was releasing the waters of the deep. So yes, you are correct in asserting that this model allows God to have the same experience (really it's a similar experience, not exactly the same) over and over again. (re)Living that experience isn't what gives God his glory. It is the whole experience from beginning to end (our world and our time) that gives God his glory.

Explain how God would weep over a past event unless He is constantly weeping. When humans express emotion it is because something just happened, either a memory of an event comes up or we realize its significance or a thought comes to mind that we weren't thinking of previously or we experience something at that moment that brings it on (I'm sure there are other situations too). The point is that expressed emotions signify something has changed.

So, with a God who has perfect memory and knowledge what changed to allow Him to weep at that moment? The only possible explanation I could think of is that He experienced that specific event for the first time, for this particular world for this specific event (not that it hasn't been done before) which would not be the case if He could jump from time to time and had experienced it previously. God's emotional character, to me, is a sign that He has linear time. Otherwise, I don't understand how God could be emotional.

I've heard people say that He is happy, angry, weeping etc all the time but even then humans don't weep forever over a single event, that would seem like excessive emotion if He was doing that all the time.

If God really does express emotion for a specific event than that to me also speaks of the events significance more than just seeing it in the future because I think He has seen it all already for our world (seen it, i.e - spiritual creation, not realized it physically).

So how do you explain God's emotional expression in your model?

[jayanna]

Some other models I've heard presented on this thread are the probability model (God fills in the game theory matrices and optimizes it for the results he wants), which means that God doesn't really know what you'll do but he has a pretty good idea (and he's already stacked the deck in his favor). Another is the parallel earths model (God has several versions of this earth running, and the one that ends up the way he wants it will be called good (I guess he scraps the failed ones? - proponents of this idea should flesh it out better for us)), which means that God doesn't know what you'll do before you do it but like the probability model knows the big picture and where everyone fits. And then there's the prior knowledge model (probably closest to what you've been describing - God has had a premortal eternity to get to know us and so has gained perfect predictablity skill), which means that God does know exactly what we'll do before we do it. And the multiple times model (God exists outside of our time, meaning he can freely move backwards and forwards in it), which also means that God does know what we'll do before we do it..

Thanks, mordorbund, but that kinda freaks me out a little, not your opinion, I mean, but the fact that there is so much debate about the nature of God, and that there are 'sides'

Now I want to make sure all of you know that I am not adressing one person on any 'side', but anyone who reads this...and I don't write this to point out anyone's flaws, or chastise, but in an attempt to bring comfort to questions and endless debate with no conclusion...

When I was first investigating the church, there were a lot of people coming to my door and inviting me to their churches. I would ask each of them the same question, "Why should I come to your church?"

Some would answer with various scripture references (I did not have a testimony of the Bible) some would say they have a really great _______ program, some would say what a great preacher they have, some would say what great facilities they had.

Then the elders came, I knew they were coming, and that God had sent them because He told me He would. But to be fair I asked them the same question before they left. They glanced at each other, and then the senior of the two answered, "We can't tell you that, you have to pray to God and ask Him that." It had never occured to me to ask, and that if I asked He would answer. Once they taught me how to pray, I asked, and He answered.

Scripture can be debated all day long, but it was not written to create divisions between us. Revelation has been returned to the earth to bring us unity, and greater understanding. If you really want to understand something about God, you should ask Him, knowing that He loves you and cares about you.

Now remember, that Moses when He wanted to speak with God and needed to learn more from Him, he climbed a mountain to get with Him. Don't get me wrong, God can be anywhere, but sometimes we need to climb a mountain to speak with Him. If you have a mountain you need to climb, go for it. Maybe it is temple attendance, maybe it's overcoming an addiction, maybe it's overcoming preconceived beliefs and putting them aside to accept whatever answer He gives, but climb it. Ask Him. He wants you to. I know this because I've lived this.

Best wishes:)

[mordorbund]

Explain how God would weep over a past event unless He is constantly weeping. When humans express emotion it is because something just happened, either a memory of an event comes up or we realize its significance or a thought comes to mind that we weren't thinking of previously or we experience something at that moment that brings it on (I'm sure there are other situations too). The point is that expressed emotions signify something has changed.

So, with a God who has perfect memory and knowledge what changed to allow Him to weep at that moment? The only possible explanation I could think of is that He experienced that specific event for the first time, for this particular world for this specific event (not that it hasn't been done before) which would not be the case if He could jump from time to time and had experienced it previously. God's emotional character, to me, is a sign that He has linear time. Otherwise, I don't understand how God could be emotional.

Works for me. Let's say God exists in linear time. The model I'm describing has two dimensions of linear time - God's, and ours. God still has a moment in his time where he's weeping, but that doesn't necessarily map cleanly in our time unless he was in a cross-section of our time when it happened. Just because his time is linear, that doesn't mean that our time is viewed linearly for him (because his time is orthogonal to ours). Both of what you're describing fits here. If God is interacting with our time, then he can weep over something that happened in his past that happened for us in our past or even our future. If God is outside of our time when he weeps, we could say that he's always weeping.

You can apply what we know about multiple spacial dimensions to multiple temporal dimensions. If you have a sphere that intersects with flatland, it would be accurate for the flatlanders to say that "Sphere is a circle (sometimes ellipse) that appears as a point and gets larger until it fills a specific place with such and such coordinates. It exits by diminishing in size until it is a single point again and then disappears." From the flatlanders' perspective, they would be completely correct. From the sphere's perspective, there's more to the story, but it's accurate enough. But now lets say that flatland fits within the sphere and is circumscribed by the sphere. Now what could the flatlanders say? "Sphere is mystically both greater/larger than flatland, and exists everywhere in flatland." And from their perspective, they'd be correct. From the sphere's perspective, they are only half right. The sphere is greater/larger than flatland, but infinite in flatland doesn't count for much in the 3rd dimension (classic example is the math case of Gabriel's horn, which has a infinite surface area but finite volume. This works because I can keep squashing a single drop of paint to fill any flat space you have). I hope this helps and doesn't actually cause more confusion.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Works for me. Let's say God exists in linear time. The model I'm describing has two dimensions of linear time - God's, and ours. God still has a moment in his time where he's weeping, but that doesn't necessarily map cleanly in our time unless he was in a cross-section of our time when it happened. Just because his time is linear, that doesn't mean that our time is viewed linearly for him (because his time is orthogonal to ours). Both of what you're describing fits here. If God is interacting with our time, then he can weep over something that happened in his past that happened for us in our past or even our future. If God is outside of our time when he weeps, we could say that he's always weeping.

You can apply what we know about multiple spacial dimensions to multiple temporal dimensions. If you have a sphere that intersects with flatland, it would be accurate for the flatlanders to say that "Sphere is a circle (sometimes ellipse) that appears as a point and gets larger until it fills a specific place with such and such coordinates. It exits by diminishing in size until it is a single point again and then disappears." From the flatlanders' perspective, they would be completely correct. From the sphere's perspective, there's more to the story, but it's accurate enough. But now lets say that flatland fits within the sphere and is circumscribed by the sphere. Now what could the flatlanders say? "Sphere is mystically both greater/larger than flatland, and exists everywhere in flatland." And from their perspective, they'd be correct. From the sphere's perspective, they are only half right. The sphere is greater/larger than flatland, but infinite in flatland doesn't count for much in the 3rd dimension (classic example is the math case of Gabriel's horn, which has a infinite surface area but finite volume. This works because I can keep squashing a single drop of paint to fill any flat space you have). I hope this helps and doesn't actually cause more confusion.

Most of these things you are talking about are mathematical models to help understand time and space and are mostly theories. I believe God has a different perspective of time not that He is timeless or exists on some other dimension of time. If, as the example you gave suggests, the ability to "travel in time" is to have multiple dimensions intersect a smaller number of dimensions realm then it would needs be that God is not always with us. That He only intersects our realm at certain points. When I pray to God, am I sending some time capsule message that has to be relayed through worm holes and travel faster than the speed of light etc. to get to Him and then in His due time, because my 15 minute prayer takes 1500 minutes to hear, He can jump back in time by 1485 minutes and answer my prayer in real time. And of course, He would be doing this over and over again for the thousands of prayers happening at this moment. ..... Or is His time difference from ours really just perspective and He does exist in our time.

Even the models you reference have a hard time explaining any ability to go back in time. At best they can theorize ones ability to jump ahead in time but to do so requires moving a far distance from the original location or traveling faster than light. But if you think about that, if one was to travel in time to see this same world at a future time, everything in this world would also have to travel, not just the person doing the observation. Even according to those theories you would have to fast forward everything at it's current state which would change all the internal events of that world. If I took the whole world and pushed it ahead in time, then nothing in the world would have changed and so it would look the same as it does at the moment I pushed it forward, even though theoretically I could make the clock spin forward and I could theoretically call it years down the road. But all the material I want to look at has not aged and therefore I am not looking at the future. Even then, there is the problem of getting back to the past.

Maybe a better model for your 3 dimensional intersection of a flatland would be a sphere intersecting the path of a person walking a straight line on a flat surface. The person may intersect the sphere at one point of the sphere but then when he is seen on the other side of the sphere he will never go back to the first intersection point because he keeps walking in the same direction. Even in the model of different dimensions, the only way to go back and forth on the straight line dimension is to exist at all times all the time or just be an observer only, not be able to interact with the 'straight line'. And I don't think God exists in that kind of realm because I believe in Eternal Increase and I believe He can interact with our time line like He did with Joseph Smith.

In any case, it is fun to talk about, and I have thought about it more than I ever have before, so thanks.

[The_Warrior]

Has God ever foreseen something, like consequences to a particular sin, but the outcome was altered because the person decided to do the right thing after all?

Vanhin

THAT is probably the original question right there - and it is a good one - just like Homer's "Can God create a burrito so hot that he could not eat it?" ...

My answer is yes, but he will eat it in due time

[EandLDOW]

If you put some candy or cookies in one corner of a room, a favorite toy in another corner, and perhaps some money or other object in another corner, you probably can predict which corner your child or grandchild will go to first. It will vary depending on the child's personality.

Yes, Heavenly Father knows what choices we will make before we make them. But in order to preserve our agency and to permit a just judgement at the end, he lets us make our choice, and live with the consequences. Father also already knows the consequences, both of sin and of righteousness, they are set by eternal law. That's why he sends prophets to warn us of the consequences of sin, and give us the opportunity to repent and change our decisions before it's too late. An example would be Jonah's mission to Ninevah, a wicked city destined for destruction, but which repented upon hearing Jonah's testimony and preaching of the gosple, thereby forestalling their destruction.

Edited September 22, 2010 by EandLDOW