False Prophets


UrbanFool
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Ram, Prophet we do know will not lead us astray but not the apostles. It has already seen in the church a few have fallen.

But to continue on here, same members here cannot be bother to search or even research for themselves but always seek a quick easy answer.

Hemi,

You have to actually read what I wrote. Individual apostles can fall, but the QUORUM as a group will not fall away.

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What instance was that when the entire quorum fell away?

Thanks,

Vanhin

I know it's not the same as "falling away." But falling away is that same as losing a person. After Christ left the earth, the quorum was killed. So God has allowed the Quorum of the Twelve to be lost before.

God didn't ensure that the Israelite leaders stayed righteous. He didn't ensure that the Nephite leaders remained righteous. And He hasn't/doesn't/won't ensure our modern leaders will remain righteous.

It is up to all of us to search the Words of God and seek the guidence of the Spirit. Only then will we be able to detect apostasy when it sneaks into us or our leaders. That is the way God has given for ensuring that the Quorum wont fall away by giving the Spirit to influence righteous saints(regular ones like you and I). Then it is those saints who make sure that any apostasy does not take hold.

The Israelites/Jews failed. The Nephites failed. Both of these societies had Jesus Christ walk in their midst and they fell into apostasy. Are we honestly that much different from them?

the Israelites were forbidden from attaining their promised land because of apostasy and wickedness. It took them 40 years before they were finally able to inherit their promised land.

In the early 1830's the church was cast out of the promised land of Zion because of apostasy in the church. How much more wicked are we today; how much more ensnared in apostasy are we than the Israelites, when it has been about 180 years and we still haven't been allowed by the Lord to inherit Zion.

Edited by deseretgov
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I know it's not the same as "falling away." But falling away is that same as losing a person. After Christ left the earth, the quorum was killed. So God has allowed the Quorum of the Twelve to be lost before.

There is a difference in being killed for standing up to their beliefs and falling away though. They didn't fall away..that's actually why they were killed.

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There is a difference in being killed for standing up to their beliefs and falling away though. They didn't fall away..that's actually why they were killed.

Yes there is a difference but the result is that same. Completely losing the Quorum of the Twelve through death or apostasy results in the same thing. The loss of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Which comes back to may statement. Perhaps teh Quorum of the Twelve had never completely been lost to apostasy before. But it has been lost before.

But regardless we still can't just follow the Twelve and trust them to lead us in the right direction. Even when they do teach righteous things.

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But didn't the promise to never let the Church be led astray come in the latter days? Wasn't the great apostasy of the Church something that was in the plan? So it makes sense that the 12 did disappear for all those years only to be brought back in the latter days.

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It has to be on the level of an Apostle or a prophet.

Ram, Prophet we do know will not lead us astray but not the apostles. It has already seen in the church a few have fallen.

So which is it?

(I'm aware that Hemi has been banned, but I don't know if it's for a week as a 2nd infraction or if it's permanently as a 3rd infraction, so I'm responding anyway.)

If I am wrong I would gladly apologized. Separate the Saints who are humbled enough to admit wrong here. But, not at this point.

Pam, this goes back not to post 34 as the same few would seek to cover ones track but old "collision postings between him and me of the past." That is an issue and especially from a moderator. Moderators need to back out of the forum discussion and do their job - moderate or to keep the thread on course per say. Maybe, a lesson in "discernment of the Spirit" should be required as a moderator? :P But again, that would require one to be a true devote follower of Christ to the 'T''.

Wow. Just wow.

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The Church, now that it has been restored, will not fail again.

In Daniel 2:31 , he interprets King Neb. dream of the statue. This prophecy is about us!

He speaks of the different kingdoms which shall fall. Notice that the material that the image was made of gets less and less precious as time goes by.

The last one, which will not fall, is Zion.

Which has come forth, and as Daniel says, shall never be destroyed, and shall not be left to other people. He says, IT shall stand forever.

Don't worry, everything will be okay in the end.

Edited by jayanna
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So which is it?

One of the apostles, methinks. Rewording Hemi's words:

"[We know the] Prophet... will not lead us astray, but [no such promise is given for individual] apostles."

Wow. Just wow.

I think he was just having a bad day.

Let's not speak ill of the banned. ^_^ (I know that's not what you're doing... I just don't want others to join in and take it further)

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Let's not speak ill of the banned. ^_^ (I know that's not what you're doing... I just don't want others to join in and take it further)

Well Matthew, she posted that two days ago eh and the issue kind of died as you can see until you brought it up again....:P

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Hidden

The Church, now that it has been restored, will not fail again.

In Daniel 2:31 , he interprets King Neb. dream of the statue.

He speaks of the different kingdoms which shall fall. Notice that the material that the image was made of gets less and less precious as time goes by.

I can't seem to find them. But I remember reading quotes that if the modern day saints do not obey the gospel it will be taken from them and given to another. You are right nothing can stop God's kingdom from coming. But if we want to be part of that Kingdom we must make sure our lives are aligned with the gospel.

The last one which will not fall, is Zion.

Which has come forth, and as Daniel says, shall never be destroyed, and shall not be left to other people. He says, IT shall stand forever.

We don't even have Zion yet. We failed to redeem Zion because of our wickedness. Now we rejoice in living a Babylon. We build our churches and temples in Babylon. We support babylonian business and practices. We are not living in Zion. Zion will stand forever, but first we have to build it. And before we can build it we have to live the gospel.

Don't worry, everything will be okay in the end.

2 Nephi 28:21

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

I know it's a bit of a stretch because you said in the end. But the attitude is the same. We can not let ourselves think that, just because we know God will win in the end, we don't have to fight for righteousness right now.

We need to be constantly on guard or we will fail to realize that Satan is cheating our souls and carefully leading us down to hell.

Does what we practice now match what we have been taught in the scriptures and the word of the prophets. If what we live is different then we need to repent. If what the prophets teach us is different than what God teaches then we need to repent and follow God.

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But I remember reading quotes that if the modern day saints do not obey the gospel it will be taken from them and given to another.

You may be looking for this scripture:

"And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles [the modern Latter-day Saints - because we are the ones who now have the full gospel] shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."

--3 Nephi 16:10

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We see that the way to tell false spirit is if it teaches something that contradticts a previous revelation. Therefor the way to detect a false spirit influencing a prophet is if what that prophet teaches contradticts a previous revelation.

The elephant in the room here, of course, is that the practice of polygamy did contradict Jacob's earlier revelation to the Nephites (reiterated to us as a Church via the Book of Mormon) that polygamy was not to be practiced.

Now, one can (and should) draw distinctions between Jacob 2 and D&C 132, in order to explain why those two revelations were not actually contradictory. But one cannot then turn around and accuse mainstream Mormons of doctrinal hairsplitting when they attempt to reconcile D&C 132 with OD-1.

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The elephant in the room here, of course, is that the practice of polygamy did contradict Jacob's earlier revelation to the Nephites (reiterated to us as a Church via the Book of Mormon) that polygamy was not to be practiced.

Now, one can (and should) draw distinctions between Jacob 2 and D&C 132, in order to explain why those two revelations were not actually contradictory. But one cannot then turn around and accuse mainstream Mormons of doctrinal hairsplitting when they attempt to reconcile D&C 132 with OD-1.

Actually it didn't contradict it at all:

Jacob 2:27-30

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

The built in exception is verse 30. So essentially, "Though shalt have only one wife and no concubines, unless I the Lord tell you to do differently."

But I'm sure you already knew that.

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You may be looking for this scripture:

"And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles [the modern Latter-day Saints - because we are the ones who now have the full gospel] shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."

--3 Nephi 16:10

I would say that's one way of interpreting this passage but it's questionable. I think it has significant reference to the Apostate Christendom found among the Gentiles, and they're rejection of the fullness when it is presented to them. This already happened once with the Great Apostasy -- which seems to be explicitly what this passage is talking about. It also happens again when they reject the guidance of modern day prophets and apostles, preferring their own wisdom over God's. That is the way I always understood that passage anyway.

The trouble with running with it in the way that you're doing -- once converted to the Restored Gospel, the Gentile is Gentile no longer, but becomes part of the family of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. So there's reason to question whether Nephi would continue to refer to them as "Gentiles." He might though, so it could mean both things. As with any inspired writing, it can have many meanings and usages.

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My understanding of 3NE10:16 in influenced by its context in the chapter at large.

3 Nephi 16, Verse 4:

"[Jesus said,] And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the other tribes whom they know not of, that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer"

Here we have four groups distinctly mentioned: the Nephites, the Jews ("my people at Jerusalem"), the lost ten tribes ("the other tribes they know not of"), and then the Gentiles - those who receive the records of the Nephites. That would be us, the Latter-day Saints. It seems logical to me that Jesus refers to these groups not by Abrahamic Adoption, but by strict patriarchal lineage, making the majority of us, who do not know if we are or are not literal children of Israel, Gentiles.

Verse 7:

Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

Again, this points to us, the Latter-day Saints. We know that the Lord is coming to cleanse His own house first, which might mean that if we are not worthy, he will indeed wrench the administration of the Gospel from the unworthy and grant it unto those who are.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 112:24 - 26)

I do not know what this means, exactly, or who the Lord would put in place of us if we no longer stood worthy of bearing His name. But we can't be complacent, we can't sit on our laurels, we can't refuse to exercise our agency for righteousness' sake.

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hyohko on second thought, I think you're more on the right track than me on this one. Not sure if this means that we should actively look for apostles and prophets to mislead -- I think any apostle who seeks to do so will be made obvious when he ends up coming into conflict with the rest of the 12 and the first presidency.

But I agree that there will be many members who will lead others astray, and some members who will be weighed and found wanting.

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Hidden

We don't even have Zion yet. We failed to redeem Zion because of our wickedness. Now we rejoice in living a Babylon. We build our churches and temples in Babylon. We support babylonian business and practices. We are not living in Zion. Zion will stand forever, but first we have to build it. And before we can build it we have to live the gospel.

I know it's a bit of a stretch because you said in the end. But the attitude is the same. We can not let ourselves think that, just because we know God will win in the end, we don't have to fight for righteousness right now.

.

Well, if you read the actual prophesy I was writing about, you will see that Daniel is obviously speaking of the Church that is restored through Joseph Smith, during the time period of Joseph Smith's time. It could only come about after the beginning of the fight of the kingdom which is 'divided against itself'

It has broken into pieces and is devouring other kingdoms, thru missionary work. When we devour something, we are making it part of us. The kingdom of God is making the other kingdoms part of us.

We are built by the rock not hewn by human hands, the rock that Peter had, the rock of Revelation.

Our temples might be built in Babylon, but we can leave Babylon anytime we want to, by entering the temples, or making our homes like the temples. :saint:

The Lord's kingdom will not be stopped. I did not say that we should stop working, though 'fighting' isn't really the right word, more like educate, inspire, uplift, encourage. I only said that we should not worry about what will happen in the end.

I am not afraid of Satan, or his army...:bananarockon: we outnumber them, we always have we always will, and my big brother is way bigger than him. :)

Be not afraid, He will be with us.

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Jacob Chapter 2 is not a contradiction to Plural marriage. Plural Marriage was never revealed to the Nephites. Thus it was not binding on them and God could command them to not engage in polygyny. It is important to understand that there difference between Biblical Polygyny and Plural Marriage. Plural Marriage, when revealed, is binding upon all it is revealed to. It cannot be taken away when it is revealed. In the early days of the church it was revealed unto only a select few. To all the rest of the Church, Joseph Smith condemned polygamy and told them only to have one wife.

Now I will conceed the point on the Manifesto(OD-1) because it was never intended to actually stop Plural Marriage. It was simply a political manuever to throw off the US government. It wasn't until about thirty years later when Heber J. Grant made it an official policy.

So now I ask you. When part of section 132 read like this:

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Now this New and Everlasting Covenant includes verses 1-66. Isn't it a contradiction for Heber J. Grant to not permit the saints to abide by verses 61-65? Now I haven't done an indepth study yet so I don't have any Heber J. Grant quotes. But it seems to me that someone saying we are permitted to abide the New and Everlasting Covenant except for verses 61-65, is not in harmony with what is contained in section 132.

Anyway we slice it the current policy of not permitting Plural Marriages is not inspired by God and is a contradiction with the Word of God.

Yes I am aware of the stone cut without human hands prophecies. But are we overlooking some pretty significant things just because we can say that we will devour other kingdoms?

Firstly kindgoms. Where is God's kingdom on earth? I'm not talking about a religious corporate entity, I'm talking about a real literal kingdom? For those who don't know Joseph Smith established what was commonly refered to as the Council of Fifty. The Council of Fifty was supposed to be the leading council for God's literal political Kingdom on the Earth. We weren't supposed to be living in the burrent babylonian kingdoms of the earth we were supposed to be living in God's Kingdom. Guess who the last member of the Council of Fifty was. He was Heber J. Grant. Hmm interesting coincidence(I think not).

So there are two was in which we are not following the Commands of God.

Now temples. Yes I supposed you could be right when you say we come out of Babylon when we go into temples. But we go right back in it again when we leave the temples. We are living in Babylon.

You can find tons of scriptures commanding us to gather in Zion. But are we doing so? No. We are attempting to build Zion in the middle of Babylon. Are oure children being educated by believing and loving teachers, or are we sending them to babylonian public schools? Do you work to build up Zion, or work in a babylonian company. Do you dollars go to support babylonian businesses and ways of life? Do you dress in babylonian clothes?

“Brother Joseph Smith gave us the word of the Lord; it was simply this: `Never do another day’s work to build up a Gentile city never lay out another dollar while you live, to advance the world in its present state; it is full of wickedness and violence; no regard is paid to the prophets, nor the prophecyings of the prophets, nor to Jesus nor his sayings, nor the word of the Lord that was given anciently, nor to that given in our day. They have gone astray, and they are building up themselves, and they are promoting sin and iniquity upon the earth; and,’ said he, `it is the word and commandment of the Lord to his servants that they shall never do another day’s work, nor spend another dollar to build up a Gentile city’” (Brigham Young, J.D. 11:294-295)”

Are we building up gentile cities or are we building Cities of Zion as commanded by the Lord? now lets look at the temples commanded to be build by the Lord in the early days of the church. The New Jerusalem temples were commanded to be build in the City of New Jerusalem. The Kirtland temple was comamnded to be built in the Stake of Zion City of Kirtland. The Adam -ondi-Ahman temples were commanded to be built in the Stake of Zion City of Adam-ondi-Ahamn. the Nauvoo Temple was comamnded to be built in the Stake of Zion City of Nauvoo. The Salt Lake City temple was commanded to be built inSalt lake City. All of these temples were comamnded to be built in sacred and holy cities. Free from the influences of Babylon. But were we righteous enough to keep these cities holy? No we weren't. So now look at us, defiling the very sacredness of the temples by building them amongst the gentiles.

Ok so I'll count that as two more ways we are not obeying God's commandements. So I guess it is actually five now:

1. Obeying the prophets regardless of what the scriptures say.

2. Not practicing Plural Marriage.

3. Not building the literal political Kingdom of God.

4. Building up Babylon instead.

5. Not gathering to Zion.

Now hold on becasue there are lots more. If you think we are obeying God's commandments...well...ha ha ha.

Lets start with the Law of Tithing. Have we even read the scriptures that explain this? D&C 119. It's only seven verses. Now see if what that says matches what we are currently practicing.

For those of you who don't want to find it yourselves. D&C 119 says that we are to first take our surplus income and give it to the Bishop(thus fulfilling the Low of Consecration, see it wasn't done away with). Then once a year, every year, after that we are to determine what our surplus income was for that whole year and then give one-tenth of that to the bishop. Now for those who don't know surplus income, interest, and increase all mean the same thing. they mean that after we bhave paid our bills, paid our rent, bought food, &c. After we have provided for all our needs anything left over is our interest or increase. That ammount left over is what we pay tithing on.

If you don't believe me look it up in D&C 119. If we are paying anything other than what is commanded in D&C 119 then we are not paying a full and honest tithing. If our leaders are commanding anything other than what is shown in that scripture it is not God's will. In God's system the rich pay moe, the less rich pay less and the poor are provided for. In man's system everyone pays ten percent of their income(gross or net) even the poor who don't have an increase.

Now lets also throw in the fact that paying tithing has become a requirement of entering the temple.

I mentioned the Word of Wisdom in another thread. The start of the Word of Wisdom, Section 89, says that it is not given by command or constraint. If it is ever made a commandment then that is the commandment of men. God says that the Word of Wisdom is not a commandment. Guess which man made the WOrd of Wisdom a commandment. I'll give you a hint, it starts with an "H" and ends with and "eber J. Grant."

Now again have you read Section 89? If what we are currently living is in contradiction with what is given in Section 89 we are not living the Word of Wisdom.

So now let's head back to the temple.

Our temple ordinances have undergone severel changes to conform to the desires of men. I'm not going to delve into the details of these changes because of the sacredness of those ordinances. But suffice it to say that many ordinaces have has significant changes from their original version. Some ordinances have even been lost.

The Garment design has been changed to fit the desires of men.

The Anointed Quorum has been lost. After moving west teh anointed quroum largely bacme local prayer circles. Now even prayer circles are banned.

Moving on. Brigham Young gave the following quote:

“And when the spirit of persecution, the spirit of hatred, of wrath, and malice ceases in the world against this people, it will be the time that this people have apostatized and joined hands with the wicked, and never until then; which I pray may never come”. (JD 4:326-327)

I now reference you to a quote by Gordon B. Hinckley:

“Ours is the blessing to live in a better season (than the early saints). The terrible persecutions of the past are behind us. Today we are looked upon with respect by people across the world”. (Ensign, Conference Report, November, 1996)

Now don't think I am condemning the church leaders in this post. I'm not. It is not their fault. It is our fault. it is the fault of every Latter-day Saint who refuses to read the scriptures and find the true Word of God. Are we reading just so that we can fill in another little box in our scripture reading chart? Or are we being nourished by God's Word? Or are we just accepting that whatever we are taught by our leaders is what we should do? or are we copmaring any prophets words with that of scriptures and finding what God's commandments truely are? Remember that God will give us what we want. If we want wickedness and the easy way he will give it to us. Remember when the Nephites wanted a King. God didn't want them to have a king but because the people wanted one that's what they got.

Having said that let's make a list of the ways we are failing to obey God's commandments:

1. Obeying the prophets regardless of what the scriptures say.

2. Not practicing Plural Marriage.

3. Not building the literal political Kingdom of God.

4. Building up Babylon instead.

5. Not gathering to Zion.

6. Not obeying the Law of Tithing

7. Requiring tithing(including our modern false version of tithing) to enter the Temple.

8. Requiring obedience to teh Word of Wisdom to enter the Temple.

9. Changing the ordinances of the Temple.

10. Changing the Garment of the Holy priesthood.

11. No organized Anointed Quorum.

12. Seeking the praise and acceptance of the world.

I can think up LOTS more if you want.

So I ask you do you honestly believe that God will bless us when we act in such stark contrast to His commandments? We must all repent, myself included, of our wickedness. We must have the might change of heart and become converted to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Obeying the commandments of men mingled with scripture is not enough.

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