False Prophets

[deseretgov]

I've always paid 10% first, before everything else. Not after the bills.

Read Section 119 and then come back and tell me if paying ten percent on any income is the commandment of God.

I've always paid Tithing on any paycheck I get. But now that I know what God's commandments really are as contained in the scriptures I'm trying to repent and give my tithing the proper way.

[UrbanFool]

Well, then a lot of us wouldn't be paying any tithing since we live hand to mouth. I have a whole $30 in the savings account I've managed to squirrel away over the past several months.

[pam]

Read Section 119 and then come back and tell me if paying ten percent on any income is the commandment of God.

I've always paid Tithing on any paycheck I get. But now that I know what God's commandments really are as contained in the scriptures I'm trying to repent and give my tithing the proper way.

So are you insinuating that UrbanFool is paying tithing incorrectly? We've always been taught to pay 10% of our increase. If 10% for UrbanFool is before paying anything else then what is the problem?

[deseretgov]

So are you insinuating that UrbanFool is paying tithing incorrectly? We've always been taught to pay 10% of our increase. If 10% for UrbanFool is before paying anything else then what is the problem?

I just said to read section 119 as see if that jives with what we are currently paying as tithing.

Here i'll even post it so we can all read it together:

Doctrine and Covenants 119

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.

7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.

Verse 1: All of our surplus property is to be put into the hands of the Bishop.

Verse 2: This property is to be used for four purposes. First building temples. Second Laying the foundation of Zion. Third the Priesthood. Fourth paying the debts of the Presidency of the Church.

Verse 3: That initial consecration of surplus property is the begining of tithing.

Verse 4: After those who have consecrated all of their surplus they will consecrate one-tenth of their increase every year.

Verse 5: Those who gather in the land of Zion(Jackson County) must obey this law or they are not worthy.

Verse 6: if we do not obey this law and through it sanctify Zion then we will never attain Zion.

Verse 7: This law applies not only to the City of Zion but to all the other Stakes of Zion.

Surplus increase and interest mean the same thing. It was what is left over after you have provided for the needs of you family. That is why it is called an increase. If your monthly expenses are $1,200 and you bring home a paycheck of $900 every month you don't have any increase. You are in the hole. But if you bring home a paycheck of $1,400 then after you pay your expenses you have an increase of $200.

So now I ask anyone here:

Have you consecrated all of your surplus property when you started paying tithing to the Bishop?

Since then do you pay tithing on your surplus/interest/increase rather than your gross or net income?

Do you pay your tithing once a year?

If you answers no to any oe of those questions then you are not paying tithing as God has commanded. It doesn't matter if you are trying to give more so you pay tithing on your gross income. That's what fast offerings and other donations are for. Tithing is 10% of any surplus income after consecration all surplus property initially.

The purpose of the Law of Consecration/Tithing is to make everyone more equal. The rich give more. the less rich give less. And the poor who have no interest or connot provide for their needs are given.

Requiring every person to give 10% of the income regardless of they have any increase is not God's way and only serves to make the poor suffer. I didn't just make this up. It's in your Doctrine and Covenants too.

[beefche]

Interesting. The prophets have only said that we should tithe on our increase or income. Further interpretation has been left between the individual and God. Yet, you are able to define it for everyone.

[BenRaines]

How would you define surplus? If I spend any extra money I have on toys or vacations then it would not leave me any surplus, does that mean I don't pay any tithing?

I start every day with zero in my hand. At the end of the day I have the wages that I have earned. I consider that an increase from the morning. I don't read it to say "net after all your expenses". If that were so almost no one would be paying tithing.

That is my opinion.

Ben Raines

[pam]

I just said to read section 119 as see if that jives with what we are currently paying as tithing.

Here i'll even post it so we can all read it together:

Doctrine and Covenants 119

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.

7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.

Verse 1: All of our surplus property is to be put into the hands of the Bishop.

Verse 2: This property is to be used for four purposes. First building temples. Second Laying the foundation of Zion. Third the Priesthood. Fourth paying the debts of the Presidency of the Church.

Verse 3: That initial consecration of surplus property is the begining of tithing.

Verse 4: After those who have consecrated all of their surplus they will consecrate one-tenth of their increase every year.

Verse 5: Those who gather in the land of Zion(Jackson County) must obey this law or they are not worthy.

Verse 6: if we do not obey this law and through it sanctify Zion then we will never attain Zion.

Verse 7: This law applies not only to the City of Zion but to all the other Stakes of Zion.

Surplus increase and interest mean the same thing. It was what is left over after you have provided for the needs of you family. That is why it is called an increase. If your monthly expenses are $1,200 and you bring home a paycheck of $900 every month you don't have any increase. You are in the hole. But if you bring home a paycheck of $1,400 then after you pay your expenses you have an increase of $200.

So now I ask anyone here:

Have you consecrated all of your surplus property when you started paying tithing to the Bishop?

Since then do you pay tithing on your surplus/interest/increase rather than your gross or net income?

Do you pay your tithing once a year?

If you answers no to any oe of those questions then you are not paying tithing as God has commanded. It doesn't matter if you are trying to give more so you pay tithing on your gross income. That's what fast offerings and other donations are for. Tithing is 10% of any surplus income after consecration all surplus property initially.

The purpose of the Law of Consecration/Tithing is to make everyone more equal. The rich give more. the less rich give less. And the poor who have no interest or connot provide for their needs are given.

Requiring every person to give 10% of the income regardless of they have any increase is not God's way and only serves to make the poor suffer. I didn't just make this up. It's in your Doctrine and Covenants too.

Interesting. So I guess that all the leaders, teachers and everyone that has ever taught me Church doctrine and policy have been incorrect. What you have described is not the way I have ever been taught. So that would mean for 53 years the Church has allowed people to teach incorrectly.

Edited August 27, 2010 by pam

[UrbanFool]

In the Gospel Principles, it says this: (emphasis is mine.)

A tithe is one-tenth of our increase. This means that we give one-tenth of all we earn before we pay for our own needs such as food, clothing, and shelter. If our increase is in the form of flocks, herds, or crops rather than money, we give one-tenth of those things (see Leviticus 27:30–32).

Do you think the Bishop would like one of my dogs?

[Just_A_Guy]

So are you insinuating that UrbanFool is paying tithing incorrectly? We've always been taught to pay 10% of our increase. If 10% for UrbanFool is before paying anything else then what is the problem?

Allow me to sum up:

"The prophets after John Taylor are full of bunk, and it's all our fault".

[Just_A_Guy]

Jacob Chapter 2 is not a contradiction to Plural marriage. Plural Marriage was never revealed to the Nephites.

See, there you go drawing distinctions--as I predicted you would. But heaven forfend a mainstream LDS should draw distinctions that reconcile D&C 132 with OD-1.

By the way: the Nephites certainly knew about plural marriage. Those who promoted the practice cited the practices of David and Solomon as support for their teachings.

I mentioned the Word of Wisdom in another thread. The start of the Word of Wisdom, Section 89, says that it is not given by command or constraint. If it is ever made a commandment then that is the commandment of men. God says that the Word of Wisdom is not a commandment.

It was also pointed out, in that other thread, that the first three verses of Section 89 were not part of the revelation proper as received by Joseph Smith but were added by Church elders. It was further noted that as early as the 1830s, Church members were excommunicated on the grounds of violating the Word of Wisdom.

Your flaws in your historical vision have already been pointed out. Why do you insist on perpetuating them?

The rest of your post boils down to whether or not one accepts the idea of living prophets, and the idea that the Lord can revoke a commandment He previously gave to one individual/group because of the sins of third parties (see D&C 56). What distinguishes Mormonism is not how many women we can marry, or the cut of our underwear, or how much money we pay to the Church. What distinguishes it is priesthood authority and continuing revelation. Trying to freeze the Church into the theological and liturgical posture it adopted in 1835, or 1844, or 1889, or 1990 is antithetical to the concept of a living Church.

Finally, you've repeatedly hinted that President Woodruff's statement about the Lord not allowing the prophet to lead the Church astray, are basically him trying to get cover for issuing the Manifesto. Below I will post the entire text of that sermon, and readers can determine for themselves whether Woodruff was acting on the Lord's instructions:

I want to say to all Israel that the step which I have taken in issuing this manifesto has not been done without earnest prayer before the Lord. I am about to go into the spirit world, like other men of my age. I expect to meet the face of my Heavenly Father—the Father of my spirit; I expect to meet the face of Joseph Smith, of Brigham Young, of John Taylor, and of the Apostles, and for me to have taken a stand in anything which is not pleasing in the sight of God, or before the heavens, I would rather have gone out and been shot. My life is no better than other men's. I am not ignorant of the feelings that have been engendered through the course I have pursued. But I have done my duty, and the nation of which we form a part must be responsible for that which has been done in relation to this principle.

The Lord has required at our hands many things that we have not done, many things that we were prevented from doing. The Lord required us to build a Temple in Jackson County. We were prevented by violence from doing it. He required us to build a Temple in Far West, which we have not been able to do. A great many things have been required of us, and we have not been able to do them, because of those that surrounded us in the world. This people are in the hands of God. This work is in the hands of God, and He will take care of it. Brother George Q. Cannon told us about the lies that are abroad. It is a time when there have been more lies told about Mormonism than almost any other subject ever presented to the human family. I often think of what Lorenzo Dow said with regard to the doctrine of election. Says he: "It is like this: You can, and you can't; you will, and you won't; you shall, and you shan't; you'll be damned if you do, and you'll be damned if you don't." That is about the condition we as Latter-day Saints are in. If we were to undertake to please the world, and that was our object, we might as well give up the ship; we might have given it up in the beginning. But the Lord has called us to labor in the vineyard; and when our nation passes laws, as they have done, in regard to this principle which we have presented to the Conference, it is not wisdom for us to make war upon sixty-five millions of people. It is not wisdom for us to go forth and carry out this principle against the laws of the nation and receive the consequences. That is in the hands of God, and He will govern and control it. The Church of Christ is here; the Zion of God is here, in fulfilment of these revelations of God that are contained in these holy records in which the whole Christian world profess to believe. The Bible could never have been fulfilled had it not been for the raising up of a prophet in the last days. The revelations of St. John could never have been fulfilled if the angel of God had not flown through the midst of heaven, "having the everlasting Gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Was that angel going to visit New York, Philadelphia, Boston, and the world, and call the people together and preach to them? Not at all. But the Lord raised up a Prophet. The angel of God delivered that Gospel to that Prophet. That Prophet organized a Church; and all that He has promised in this code of revelations (the Book of Doctrine and Covenants) has been fulfilled as fast as time would admit. That which is not yet fulfilled will be.

Brethren and sisters, it is our duty to be true to God and to be faithful. Make your prayers known unto the Lord. The Lord has told us what He will do concerning many things. He will fulfill His word. Let us be careful and wise, and let us be satisfied with the dealings of God with us. If we do our duty to one another, to our country and to the Church of Christ, we will be justified when we go into the spirit world. It is not the first time that the world has sought to hinder the fulfillment of revelation and prophesy. The Jewish nation and other nations rose up and slew the Son of God and every Apostle but one that bore the Priesthood in that day and generation. They could not establish the kingdom; the world was against them. When the Apostles asked Jesus whether He would at that time restore again the kingdom to Israel, He replied: "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." He did not say it would be established then; but He taught them to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." It is a long time since that prayer was offered, and it has not been fulfilled until the present generation. The Lord is preparing a people to receive His kingdom and His Church, and to build up His work. That, brethren and sisters, is our labor.

I want the prayers of the Latter-day Saints. I thank God that I have seen with my eyes this day that this people have been ready to vote to sustain me in an action that I know, in one sense, has pained their hearts. Brother George Q. Cannon has laid before you our position. The Lord has given us commandments concerning many things, and we have carried them out as far as we could; but when we cannot do it, we are justified. The Lord does not require at our hands things that we cannot do.

This is all I want to say to the Latter-day Saints upon this subject. But go before the Lord and ask Him for light and truth, and to give us such blessings as we stand in need of. Let your prayers ascend into the ears of the God of Sabaoth, and they will be heard and answered upon your heads, and upon the heads of the world. Our nation is in the hands of God. He holds their destiny. He holds the destinies of all men. I will say to the Latter-day Saints, as an Elder in Israel and as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are approaching some of the most tremendous judgments God ever poured out upon the world. You watch the signs of the times, the signs of the coming of the Son of Man. They are beginning to be made manifest both in heaven and on earth. As has been told you by the Apostles, Christ will not come until these things come to pass. Jerusalem has got to be rebuilt. The Temple has got to be built. Judah has got to be gathered, and the House of Israel. And the gentiles will go forth to battle against Judah and Jerusalem before the coming of the Son of Man. These things have been revealed by the prophets; they will have their fulfilment. We are approaching these things. All that the Latter-day Saints have to do is to be quiet, careful and wise before the Lord, watch the signs of the times, and be true and faithful; and when you get through you will understand many things that you do not today. This work has been raised up by the power of Almighty God. These Elders of Israel were called from the various occupations of life to preach as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. They were not learned men; they were the weak things of this world, whom God chose to confound the wise, "and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are." We are here on that principle. Others will be gathered on that principle. Zion will be redeemed, Zion will arise, and the glory of God will rest upon her, and all that Isaiah and the other prophets have spoken concerning her will come to pass. We are in the last dispensation and fulness of time. It is a great day, and the eyes of all the heavens are over us, and the eyes of God Himself and all the patriarchs and prophets. They are watching over you with feelings of deep interest, for your welfare; and our prophets who were slain and sealed their testimony with their blood, are mingling with the Gods, pleading for their brethren. Therefore, let us be faithful, and leave events in the hands of God, and He will take care of us if we do our duty.

I pray God that He will bless these Apostles, Prophets and Patriarchs, these Seventies, High Priests and Elders of Israel, and these Latter-day Saints, who have entered into covenant with our God. You have a great future before you. You have kept the commandments of God, so far as you have had the opportunity, and by receiving the Gospel of Christ and being faithful your reward is before you. Your history is written and is before you. I will say that this nation, and all nations, together with presidents, kings, emporers, judges, and all men, righteous and wicked, have got to go into the spirit world and stand before the bar of God. They have got to give an account of the deeds done in the body. Therefore, we are safe as long as we do our duty. No matter what trials or tribulations we may be called to pass through, the hand of God will be with us and will sustain us. I ask my Heavenly Father to pour out His Spirit upon me, as His servant, that in my advanced age, and during the few days I have to spend here in the flesh, I may be led by the inspiration of the Almighty. I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me nor any other man who stands as the President of this Church, to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. God bless you. Amen.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[pam]

Let's get this straight. What is being proposed or posted here is NOT what the Church teaches. For anyone investigating or lurking, it is certainly not what the Church teaches.

We have modern prophets who guide us and they use scripture to do so. They also rely heavily on revelation from Heavenly Father to guide us. Let us be reminded that God has promised that he will not let a Prophet in these latter days lead us astray.