Opposing Commands (a discussion of Nephi's guilt)


Lucread
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Pam, you beat me to it. In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Then, they were commanded not to partake of the means whereby they would gain the knowledge to do so.

Concerning this topic, Joseph Smith said:

God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted-by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God commands is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. . . .

. . . As God has designed our happiness-and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has-He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law and ordinances. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 256-57

Also, I'll throw out that Laban "would have killed" Nephi and all his brothers had God not delivered Laban into Nephi's hands. He had already sent his men to find and kill them. They escaped, no doubt with the Lord's help. The only reason Laban didn't kill Nephi is because the Lord delivered him into Nephi's hands. The Lord knew the heart of Laban, and knew he was going to kill Nephi, claiming he was a thief.

It is permitted to defend yourself. Since the Lord knew Nephi's family was going to need the Brass Plates, and He knew Laban was not going to give them to them, even though fair compensation had been made, God chose to use Laban as an example of those who unrighteously try to interfere with His purposes. Whether it be an entire nation or one individual, it is the same.

Nations have wared against nation, and even slaughtered at God's command. Why bring up one death in one story and question it alone? Why not question the entire population of the ancient promised land when the army of Israel fell on it?

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Nephi didn't lie. The Book of Mormon contains the truth, Lucread. I don't have the time or energy to read every post on this thread, but it boils down to the following:

-GOD is the master of life and death.

-The Book of Mormon is scripture, translated by the gift and power of GOD. Therefore, if it is grievously wrong then GOD has prepared, preserved, and perpetuated a falsehood.

-Obedience to the word of GOD is righteousness; disobedience is sin.

Brother, I implore you to reconsider your position on this. Search your soul and ask yourself WHY you feel that there is a contradiction here, and then seek the real reason you doubt the scriptures.

GOD bless and good luck.

No offense, Matt, but heavy handed, closed minded, absolute, "you are wrong" statements, such as makes up the bulk of your post, were the reason I left the church 7 years ago.

I ask questions and feed discussions for debate. I do not shut myself down and swallow without question, and I feel doing so is a naive perspective to have about anything, especially when it comes to theology.

For the record, I am not saying God did anything wrong, in fact, I'm defending him from being seen as a fickle Lord who arbitrarily decides to command his children to break the rules he, himself, laid down for them. Neither am I saying that the Book of Mormon is not scripture, or that it was not translated by the power of God. I am not saying and have not said anywhere that the Book of Mormon is "grievously wrong."

All I am saying is that Nephi was human (this is a fact), and am presenting that it is a possibility that he, being human, did something that is inherently human, and fudged the details of his story to vindicate himself from a sin he knew he commited (or even possibly that Mormon fudged the facts, giving Nephi an excuse during his abridgement, if Nephi, himself, did not... because, you know... Mormon was also human).

As for the whole obedience and disobedience thing... huh? Where did that come from?

Are you implying that I'm being a disobedient sinner becasue I'm presenting a question?

Because if thats the case... well... I won't finish that sentence becasue I don't want to get into personal attacks as such are against site rules, and aren't exactly "christian" in nature, so I'll just back away and let your imagination fill in the gaps.

But take note that I am offended by your post.

I just think you should know that.

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Lucread, you have two options.

A.) God is higher than the law he gave and can make exceptions to them where and when he sees fit. God alone is able to make the determination of where and when there are to be exceptions.

B.) The Law is higher than God. God is unable to allow for nor command exceptions to his rules.

I would say you have not conclusively demonstrated that A is false and that B is true.

The Bible is filled with cases where God makes exceptions to the Law when exceptions are called for. So does this mean that every such instance, the prophet or servant lied and said "God told me to."?

I'm not sure what point you are making with Deuteronomy 5. Deuteronomy contains a great many repeats as the book is largely Moses reminding Israel of their duty and of the Law before they head into the promised land. There's a lot more than just the Ten Commandments that are repeated. If that process of repetition and reminder ended with Deuteronomy chapter 5, it still would not establish the Ten Commandments as superior to God, to be obeyed without exception. If God wants to make an exception to any given rule in the Bible, as evidenced by countless examples, He can and does make such an exception.

Maybe it's just me but it seems that your story is shifting. You laid Laban and Nephi out as an example that must be murder and must be wrong no matter what, but that it was a unique case. I gave two other examples of exactly the same thing happening -- Samuel killing King Agag and David killing Goliath. Then you're saying that they're wrong too.

To presuppose that God was angered by any of these three deaths is simply not substantiated by scriptures. Quite the opposite. Nephi would go on to see and do greater and greater things on behalf of God. Samuel would proceed to strip the kingdom from Saul and his house (for failing to kill Agag among other things) and give it to David. David would go on to become the King and a great prophet in his own right.

And yet David did offend God with the murder of Uriah the Hittite -- so clearly men of God are not simply exempted from the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." They are to do it when and only when God commands it.

The only reasonable explanation for the way that the story proceeded in the cases of these three men would be to conclude that God can indeed make the exceptions to his own Law.

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Concerning this topic, Joseph Smith said:

God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted-by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God commands is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. . . .

. . . As God has designed our happiness-and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has-He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law and ordinances. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 256-57

Very good... thank you for that. However why I love this so much is not going to go over well with some, either.

I can take this and forgive all things mentioned here in this thread... from the Nephi/Laban event to all the other commands to kill. However, this would then lead to the idea, and belief in a seemingly unperfect God. A God who allows contradictions of his own words to perpetuate the need... a HUMAN persona, if you will.

And now I take this, and as I think on it... it actually makes a great deal of sense, especially with the LDS belief structure of God and the eternal cycle. Our Father in Heaven was once like us... somewhere, sometime, very long ago. This would inherently mean that he was, at one point, human. Now regardless of spiritual wholeness, and temporal being, personality, in essence can't possibly be that gravely different. So being once a human, and later becoming a God, as we believe is the way in our faith, then our God would have to be, at some level, who he was when he was within his own test. Therefore, a God who says one thing, then does another, is compeltely feesible, and entirely supported by our beleifs.

Geeze... my head is racking now with answers and further ponderings. How oculd I have never thought to apply that explanation to such blatant contradictions? Thank you, Justice... thank you very much! I'm going to have to go back study some more... I haven't done much study with non-scriptual LDS work for a couple of years now (even though I have since sheepishly found my way back into the fold).

When you continuosly seek answers from church to church, you tend to continue forward, putting many things behind, as you've already been there... but then you fall victim to that which I have... you forget. And by doing so, you drop a piece of the puzzle you're trying to put together, and when you find the piece that connects it, you're left with just another piece, rather than the whole you should have been prepared to place together.

/blah ... THANKS AGAIN! :twothumbsup:

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As for the first question... unlike as I am meant to as church teachings persist (placing God above all else), I would freely break a commandment to save my children... but thats me. And like I said, thats not what we're SUPPOSED to do. We actuallly had a discussion about this sort of thing in Elder's Quorom recently, and it made me realize how little I hold to the proper order of things.

See, the line of importance presented by the church is thus: God/Christ> Self> Spouse> C

See I listened to God recently did what He commanded and saved my daughter from something terrible. Other people at church didn't listen and their children suffered. Blessing I received at one point said every parent had been warned.

As I say to anyone else God is more than a book. The book wouldn't be true without personal revelation.

I remain unrepentant about our year away from church it was the right thing to do because God commanded it. I received enough of a witness to know it was from God and not some other spirit.

Guess I can't imagine getting a clear witness from God, and having asked Him to confirm it, you then turn round and say, err sorry God, I can't obey you because I don't actually believe you can communicate with me directly. Do that and you end up like the other parents.

God is wise. God is good and ultimately He will be the one judging me.

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...... ehhhh... wait, what?

I have had my own Nephi type situation. Last October God commanded my family and I not to attend church for a time. The blessing I had subsequent to what my old Stake President would call a special witness, was that our family would continue to be blessed and grow spiritually and be unaffected through the eternities. If we had continued attending church we would have lost our daughter for eternity.

I now know why Heavenly Father made that request of me, and if I am to believe other blessings other parents were warned and didn't listen. This scripture has been a wonderful comfort to me over the past year. Most of the situation is now resolved but legal issues still prevent our return.

Nephi in the story asks God to confirm He receives two witnesses, as I did actually I had three. I just don't understand why you don't believe God can speak directly to any of us if He needs too. God requested Him do this for his descendents and us.

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Okay, I understand what you're saying now, but I have to ask...

What makes you think that I don't think God can speak to each of us directly? I've not said anything to that effect, here or elsewhere, ever in my life (as I have always believed he can). I think you must have misunderstood something I said somewhere along the way or something.

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Okay, I understand what you're saying now, but I have to ask...

What makes you think that I don't think God can speak to each of us directly? I've not said anything to that effect, here or elsewhere, ever in my life (as I have always believed he can). I think you must have misunderstood something I said somewhere along the way or something.

You are suggesting a man of Nephi's stature and faith was mislead by Satan or sinned of his own accord, rather than received direct revelation.

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I never said, or even suggested, that he was mislead by Satan... I did say he may have sinned of his own accord, and then lied about it... regardless, neither of the two state, or even hint, that I wouldn't think God could commune with us directly... in fact the former (though not something I ever said) would suggest that he could, since Satan clearly can't do anything God can't...

... so, I'm still kinda confused where you got that from.

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I never said, or even suggested, that he was mislead by Satan... I did say he may have sinned of his own accord, and then lied about it... regardless, neither of the two state, or even hint, that I wouldn't think God could commune with us directly... in fact the former (though not something I ever said) would suggest that he could, since Satan clearly can't do anything God can't...

... so, I'm still kinda confused where you got that from.

well your whole premise is that Nephi didn't receive personal revelation from God. I am not sure why you would doubt that? Especially if you had received your own revelation that the Book of Mormon is true. What makes the Ten Commandments true and the Book of Mormon not?

Edited by Elgama
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Dude... you're like... completely misunderstanding the whole argument.

You're assuming a series of absolutes that are not present. I never said Nephi didn't recieve revelations from God, rather that this one instance MAY HAVE BEEN an authorial excuse. Furthermore, I have not once claimed the Book of Mormon to be false, and have quite the contrary affirmed my belief in it. Quite simply... you've just completely misunderstood the discussion.

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Dude... you're like... completely misunderstanding the whole argument.

You're assuming a series of absolutes that are not present. I never said Nephi didn't recieve revelations from God, rather that this one instance MAY HAVE BEEN an authorial excuse. Furthermore, I have not once claimed the Book of Mormon to be false, and have quite the contrary affirmed my belief in it. Quite simply... you've just completely misunderstood the discussion.

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The question for you then is if one believes God told Nephi to take his head while he was sleeping, is it still murder?

Even then, the commandments were given to men. God can take life as freely as He gives it. That is not contradictory to His commandment for us.

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Dude... you're like... completely misunderstanding the whole argument.

You're assuming a series of absolutes that are not present. I never said Nephi didn't recieve revelations from God, rather that this one instance MAY HAVE BEEN an authorial excuse. Furthermore, I have not once claimed the Book of Mormon to be false, and have quite the contrary affirmed my belief in it. Quite simply... you've just completely misunderstood the discussion.

[

Your right I haven't got the foggiest how you can believe Nephi was honest about anything else if he lied about this.

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The question for you then is if one believes God told Nephi to take his head while he was sleeping, is it still murder?

If you are commanded by your boss to kill someone while they're sleeping, is it murder? If you're an assassin for the CIA, and its your job to carry out strategic killings, is it still murder? If someone has wronged you every day of your life, and one day you find them sleeping, and you kill them, is it still murder? If God commands you to kill someone when there are other ways of succeeding in your goal, is it still murder?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes... justifications don't change the act. Regardless, though, thats not the argument that was presented. The argument presented was whether or not Nephi was actually commanded to commit murder, or if he just claimed he was as a justification for his actions. It was probing the humanity of the author and the likelihood of God actually commanding someone to break the commandments he set down for everyone to follow (thus the opposing commands).

But regardless, my argument was resolved a while ago (as you would see if you actually looked back and read the thread).

Even then, the commandments were given to men. God can take life as freely as He gives it. That is not contradictory to His commandment for us.

No, but God didn't kill Laban... Nephi did... and THAT is contradictory to the commandment given us.

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Your right I haven't got the foggiest how you can believe Nephi was honest about anything else if he lied about this.

Have you ever lied in your life? Of course you have!

So with your logic, how can I possibly believe you're honest about anything else you've ever said?

Maybe you don't have a daughter... maybe you didn't leave the church for a year... maybe you're a 12 year old little boy trolling an LDS website. Do you see where this is going? Believing someone lied isn't the same as believing they never spoke any truth... quite contrary, its believing that someone is human... as humans lie...

... why do I suddenly feel like Dr. House... "EVERYBODY LIES!!!"

~lol~

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Have you ever lied in your life? Of course you have!

So with your logic, how can I possibly believe you're honest about anything else you've ever said?

Maybe you don't have a daughter... maybe you didn't leave the church for a year... maybe you're a 12 year old little boy trolling an LDS website. Do you see where this is going? Believing someone lied isn't the same as believing they never spoke any truth... quite contrary, its believing that someone is human... as humans lie...

... why do I suddenly feel like Dr. House... "EVERYBODY LIES!!!"

~lol~

I am not aware the Book of Elgama is in the Book of Mormon that God revealed to you was true

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I never said, or even suggested, that he was mislead by Satan... I did say he may have sinned of his own accord, and then lied about it...

If Nephi lied and hid the details, then it taints everything that he ever did thereafter.

Just as we see when Urijah the Hittite was murdered by David, the man of God in question was never the same again. David went from being an utterly amazing king to being wishy-washy and constantly second guessing himself.

If Nephi was lying about everything that transpired with Laban, then he sought to cover a sin that cannot be forgiven in this world except under extremely rare circumstances -- that sin being murder -- then it would have started the Nephites in just as bad a spot as the Lamanites with a murder-stained leader (who could not hope to be lead by the Spirit of God) to guide them.

By making the assumption that Nephi, Samuel and David all lied and were all secretly guilty of murder for killing Laban, Agag and Goliath, we might as well toss out the entire Bible and Book of Mormon.

But it especially pertains to the Book of Mormon, which would be tainted from beginning to end by a lie about the father of the nation of the Nephites. If we can assume a lie regarding Laban, then we can toss out everything Nephi ever wrote. The nation that grew up following him was living a lie, and could hardly hope to achieve anything greater than the Lamanites. The Lamanite tradition that the Nephites were murders and thieves from the beginning would be valid and true. And God would hardly bless them in battle during the life of Nephi nor thereafter.

Try looking at things from God's point of view. Why did he destroy all the nations with a flood? Because he's spiteful and mean? No! Because His work and His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Those that died in the flood were so far gone that every child born into the world they lived in would have been doomed to utterly fail to achieve Eternal Life. Soddom and Gomorrah were in the same boat -- we can easily conclude that they had the gospel and rejected so completely and thoroughly that it was better that no more of Heavenly Father's children be born among them. This is likely the same case with the Caananites, Amalekites, and other races Israel was commanded to eradicate. We know it is the case for the Nephites and the Jaredites.

Heavenly Father does not command killing on a whim -- but ultimately offering them the best chance of achieving eternal life and exaltation for a large number of his children trumps even the sanctity of human life. In order to make that kind of judgement call you'd have to be Omniscient and able to see every possible future at the same time. That's why we don't get to make our own exceptions to these sorts of things, we lack the knowledge that God has.

Laban had tried to murder Nephi, Laman, Lemuel and Sam. He was living in a doomed city -- almost certainly Laban would have been killed in the Babylonian sacking of Jerusalem. Does one doomed wicked man's life count for more than an entire nation in the eyes of God Our Heavenly Father?

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No, Elgama... THATS NOT MY LOGIC!!! You're missing the whole point!

I wasn't saying you shouldn't listen to God, I was saying that maybe... JUST MAYBE... God didn't tell Nephi to kill Laban!!!

I'm not saying God never spoke to Nephi... and I'm definately not saying God doesn't speak to people.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?!

*thanks for deleting the post this was in reference too /sigh

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No... THATS NOT MY LOGIC!!! You're missing the whole point!

I wasn't saying you shouldn't listen to God, I was saying that maybe... JUST MAYBE... God didn't tell Nephi to kill Laban!!!

I'm not saying God never spoke to Nephi... and I'm definately not saying God doesn't speak to people.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?!

Why don't you ask God. Its so hard for us to understand because I suspect most have asked God. Had our own revelation on it.

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Why don't you ask God. Its so hard for us to understand because I suspect most have asked God. Had our own revelation on it.

And there's the holier than thou BS...

THANK YOU FOR SOLIDIFYING MY OLD PERCEPTION OF BULLHEADED LDS MEMBERS!!!

"Oh, you don't understand it the way I do so you must be a confused child with little or no testimony who needs to do more research."

Your arrogance is astonishing... speaking for others when its only you who are having such a hard time understanding something... you're either freakishly closed-minded or incredibly lacking in comprehension. Stop dealing in absolutes, and never be so prideful as to speak down to another.

You assume I've not asked God or had a personal revelation, when in fact I have done so more whole heartedly than many in the church would even think possible, and have had personal revelation on many varying occassions about various things. But I am not prideful, and would not stick it in another's face, as you have been since your first post in this thread. I'm sorry, but people like you are my biggest problem with the LDS church, and as I previously said, are one of the key reasons I left 7 years ago.

~honestly... you're making me sick~

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Good argument. :)

But its flawed... see, he would have had to tell his family what he did, having commited an act that would obviously not be a secret for very long, as Laban's body would without question be found.

But Nephi was the only member of his family within the city walls that night; and indeed everyone was far from Jerusalem by the time the sun rose on Nephi's handiwork. The family didn't need to know anything except what Zoram would tell them (and Zoram didn't see Laban's demise either), and even if they did--the plates were not written for the benefit of Nephi's immediate family.

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Your arrogance is astonishing... speaking for others when its only you who are having such a hard time understanding something... you're either freakishly closed-minded or incredibly lacking in comprehension. Stop dealing in absolutes, and never be so prideful as to speak down to another.

You might want to take some of your own advice to heart.

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