Questions

[MrPeanut]

Would a human clone be considered to have a soul?

What becomes of stillborn or aborted babies in terms of their non-mortal existence? Are they queued up for another shot at mortal life or do they proceed on?

[Connie]

Hello MrPeanut. Welcome to the forums.

Your first question i personally cannot answer. Anything i said on the subject would be mere speculation. I don't believe the LDS church as a position on this particular matter nor do i believe they are likely to state one soon. So the answer is, we don't really know (or at least i don't know).

Your second question, however, according to LDS doctrine can be answered with D&C 137:10 which states, "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." Year of accountability in LDS theology is age 8. So anyone who dies before age 8 is saved in heaven. So the answer to your question would be they move on.

I hope this information is somewhat helpful. If you have any other questions, please ask. :)

Best Regards

[Therauh]

Not sure... Yet but the giants of Nephlim didn't go to well and then came the flood soooo...

[MrPeanut]

Thanks for the info!

[JThimm88]

Hello MrPeanut. Welcome to the forums.

Your first question i personally cannot answer. Anything i said on the subject would be mere speculation. I don't believe the LDS church as a position on this particular matter nor do i believe they are likely to state one soon. So the answer is, we don't really know (or at least i don't know).

Your second question, however, according to LDS doctrine can be answered with D&C 137:10 which states, "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." Year of accountability in LDS theology is age 8. So anyone who dies before age 8 is saved in heaven. So the answer to your question would be they move on.

I hope this information is somewhat helpful. If you have any other questions, please ask. :)

Best Regards

I do appreciate your answer to the second question. After having a miscarriage back in April, many people told me their personal view of what they believed happened to my lost child -- they thought that soul of that baby would enter into my next child (say the one I'm pregnant with now), that Heavenly Father simply had to give that soul a chance at living here on earth... well, I just thought that personally it was kind of an absurd thing to think like that, just because I would imagine my next child would not simply be a replacement for the child that I lost, but would be a completely different person, new soul and all. I think that my lost child's time and season were simply the 8 weeks it was formed in me, and that time did serve a purpose, though maybe I'm not sure even at this point what it was.

I do however think I'll see my lost baby in heaven some day, so I couldn't agree more with D&C 137:10 (which is a good thing, considering it's scripture!) :)

Edited August 26, 2010 by JThimm88

[MarginOfError]

Your second question, however, according to LDS doctrine can be answered with D&C 137:10 which states, "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." Year of accountability in LDS theology is age 8. So anyone who dies before age 8 is saved in heaven. So the answer to your question would be they move on.

Actually, we don't know that. We do not know when mortal probation starts, but we are fairly certain it has started by the time a child is born. Whether or not a child in the womb has begun his or her mortal probation is very unclear in our doctrine, and there's good arguments for both sides.

LDS policy kind of splits the difference, saying that stillborn children may be included in family group sheets, but temple ordinances are not done on their behalf (even children who die before the age of 8 must go through the washing and anointing, endowment, and sealing (if applicable). So if it's unclear for stillborn children, it must be even murkier for aborted children.

[Moksha]

Not sure... Yet but the giants of Nephlim didn't go to well and then came the flood soooo...

Don't forget the Mets winning the World Series in both 1969 and 1986.

[RanMan]

Clones would have souls. It is the spirt / soul that animates a body. I think that regardless of how a body is formed, the placing of a soul / spirit remains the same. It would be similar to twins I think; their physical genetic structure is nearly identical, yet each has an individual and unique spirit.

:)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Would a human clone be considered to have a soul?

What becomes of stillborn or aborted babies in terms of their non-mortal existence? Are they queued up for another shot at mortal life or do they proceed on?

We don't know the answer to the first question, as already stated. I raised a similar question in a previous thread in which we talked about the definition of "soul." A broader question associated with that issue is, "Does any live tissue (separated from the body but kept alive) have an attached spirit?" What about a bag of red blood cells? or tissue formed from stem cells, like liver tissue or skin cells? Even tissue formed from stem cells of an individual who has passed away?

My personal thought (not found in the gospel teachings) is the possibility that all living organisms before Adam and Eve did not have individual spirits and therefore there was no death before Adam and Eve as there could be no separation of spirit from body which is death. So, another associated question is "can a body exist alive without a spirit?" Even Adams body was created before the breath of life. These are interesting topics.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Clones would have souls. It is the spirt / soul that animates a body. I think that regardless of how a body is formed, the placing of a soul / spirit remains the same. It would be similar to twins I think; their physical genetic structure is nearly identical, yet each has an individual and unique spirit.

:)

That isn't entirely true. What about a headless chicken's body running or trying to fly for several minutes after the head is removed? (sorry, thats morbid)

[Faded]

Would a human clone be considered to have a soul?

Well, mother nature has been creating exact genetic clones for a lot longer than human science. They're called identical twins.

The Church of Jesus Christ does not have an official stance on the matter of whether a clone has a soul, but logically speaking, if identical twins have souls, so do clones.

The process of cloning is basically just taking a fertilized egg that has not yet started dividing yet and replacing the DNA in it with the DNA of whatever you're trying to clone -- so basically hijacking an existing embryo. The science behind cloning is nowhere near what you find in Science Fiction like Star Wars. The failure rate is VERY HIGH. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 success for every 300 failures if I remember correctly. So to clone the same person 100 times would require an unobtainable number of 30,000 "spare" human embryos. And they haven't sorted out the problem with aging markers in the DNA itself, so if you cloned ... let's say Sean Connery, all of the clones would die at unusually early ages.

I suppose we'll worry about it more when they get much better at cloning. Currently, it's a very wasteful and unproductive process that yields clones that age and die prematurely.

[Tarnished]

That isn't entirely true. What about a headless chicken's body running or trying to fly for several minutes after the head is removed? (sorry, thats morbid)

The body sometimes has problems believing it is dead. When they used the guillotine on people they would often show the head the body, because often after the head had been cut off it would continue praying or mouthing the words it was saying before being cut off. I think the same is with chickens. The muscles and parts of the body still function for a short time after the head is removed. I don't think it is the spirit still with the body rather the body having a hard time dying right away.

[Therauh]

Kinda concerns me tho cause if God doesn't place the soul there but a host is made by human hands....There are probabably myriads upon myriads of souls that would love a body even tho they aren't entitled to one.

Just don't ask a clone who is daddy is in the event he replies "No one! I AM!"

[Seminarysnoozer]

The body sometimes has problems believing it is dead. When they used the guillotine on people they would often show the head the body, because often after the head had been cut off it would continue praying or mouthing the words it was saying before being cut off. I think the same is with chickens. The muscles and parts of the body still function for a short time after the head is removed. I don't think it is the spirit still with the body rather the body having a hard time dying right away.

Yes, we know the anatomy of that now. There are motor circuits in the spinal cord that allow for complex rhythmic movements such as running and flying etc that when let loose by lack of upper motor inhibition cause movements. They are all reflexive and are not purposeful of course. But my point was to say that there can be animation without the spirit. And the body parts are still "alive" for a short period of time without the spirit attached.

[Tarnished]

Yes, we know the anatomy of that now. There are motor circuits in the spinal cord that allow for complex rhythmic movements such as running and flying etc that when let loose by lack of upper motor inhibition cause movements. They are all reflexive and are not purposeful of course. But my point was to say that there can be animation without the spirit. And the body parts are still "alive" for a short period of time without the spirit attached.

Ah, I see what you are saying with that. The problem is that they are not alive for a long period of time. But it does make you wonder, people who are kept alive by machines, are they still there, or has the spirit gone on and all you have left is an animated corpse?

[MarginOfError]

Ah, I see what you are saying with that. The problem is that they are not alive for a long period of time. But it does make you wonder, people who are kept alive by machines, are they still there, or has the spirit gone on and all you have left is an animated corpse?

About a year ago I was talking to a brother who was in a urology residency. Our institution is one of the highest volume kidney transplant centers in the country. As such, he had lots of experience around candidate donors being placed on life support. His statement was that it seemed very clear to him when a spirit had left a body and when it hadn't. Something about the corpses just felt different, even when they were on life support.

Nothing doctrinal, but interesting anecdote.

[Tarnished]

About a year ago I was talking to a brother who was in a urology residency. Our institution is one of the highest volume kidney transplant centers in the country. As such, he had lots of experience around candidate donors being placed on life support. His statement was that it seemed very clear to him when a spirit had left a body and when it hadn't. Something about the corpses just felt different, even when they were on life support.

Nothing doctrinal, but interesting anecdote.

That is interesting. Interesting that the bodies feel different. Thanks for sharing that.

[MarginOfError]

That is interesting. Interesting that the bodies feel different. Thanks for sharing that.

Just to be sure we're both thinking the same thing, it wasn't a tactile difference. More a difference in presence. Perhaps akin to the feeling that someone is watching you vs. not havng that feeling...or something like that....that makes no sense...oh well.

[Tarnished]

Just to be sure we're both thinking the same thing, it wasn't a tactile difference. More a difference in presence. Perhaps akin to the feeling that someone is watching you vs. not havng that feeling...or something like that....that makes no sense...oh well.

I didn't think you were refering to a tactile difference, I figured there was just a different prescence to the body than there might have been if they were just sleeping. Thank you for clarifying though.

[Moksha]

That isn't entirely true. What about a headless chicken's body running or trying to fly for several minutes after the head is removed?

Or Shiz rising up on his hands after Coriantumr cut his head off.

[RanMan]

That isn't entirely true. What about a headless chicken's body running or trying to fly for several minutes after the head is removed? (sorry, thats morbid)

Yeah, my bad for thinking that I could respond to a question in a serious manner and expect the same in return.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yeah, my bad for thinking that I could respond to a question in a serious manner and expect the same in return.

My response is serious. You claimed the body is animated by a spirit or soul. So, I gave you an instance where it seems that that is not the case. How would you explain that? Did the spirit also get cut in half? part of it went with the head and part with the body to keep animating the body?

Or what about a bag of red blood cells? Did part of the spirit go with the cells or are they spiritless and yet alive? Or a transplanted heart that is clearly animated after taken from the donor and sitting in the cooler all by itself? Is the spirit animating that heart? What spirit?

I think these are very serious questions.

[RanMan]

I think these are very serious questions.

I don't.

However, to the question of the Spirit animating the body, this is taken from the Teachings of David O. McKay:

Teachings of David O. McKay

Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:

“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.]

Man’s body, therefore, is but the tabernacle in which his spirit dwells. Too many, far too many, are prone to regard the body as the man, and consequently to direct their efforts to the gratifying of the body’s pleasures, its appetites, its desires, its passions. Too few recognize that the real man is an immortal spirit, which [is] “intelligence or the light of truth,” [see D&C 93:29] animated as an individual entity before the body was begotten, and that this spiritual entity with all its distinguishing traits will continue after the body ceases to respond to its earthly environment. Said the Savior:

“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28.)

As Christ’s pre-existent Spirit animated a body of flesh and bones, so does the pre-existent spirit of every human being born into this world. Will you keep that in mind as the first basic truth of life?

Perhaps the problem is that you don't have a clear understanding of what it means to "animate" something.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't.

However, to the question of the Spirit animating the body, this is taken from the Teachings of David O. McKay:

Teachings of David O. McKay

Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:

“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.]

Man’s body, therefore, is but the tabernacle in which his spirit dwells. Too many, far too many, are prone to regard the body as the man, and consequently to direct their efforts to the gratifying of the body’s pleasures, its appetites, its desires, its passions. Too few recognize that the real man is an immortal spirit, which [is] “intelligence or the light of truth,” [see D&C 93:29] animated as an individual entity before the body was begotten, and that this spiritual entity with all its distinguishing traits will continue after the body ceases to respond to its earthly environment. Said the Savior:

“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28.)

As Christ’s pre-existent Spirit animated a body of flesh and bones, so does the pre-existent spirit of every human being born into this world. Will you keep that in mind as the first basic truth of life?

Perhaps the problem is that you don't have a clear understanding of what it means to "animate" something.

Perhaps you don't realize that the body is animated by the spirit and that makes up the "soul" of man but that doesn't necessarily mean the body cannot be animated on its own.

Let me give you a few scenarios that you can tell me if the spirit is "animating" the body in those situations. When a person is drunk? or under the influence of drugs? When a person sleep walks? a good example being REM sleep behavior disorder (read about it if you don't know what that is - where people act out their dreams punching and kicking, even injuring their spouse, but they are mild mannered people that would never do such a thing when they are awake)? Or when a person has a seizure? Or myoclonus? Or Parkinson's? Or Tourette's Syndrome? Or obsessive compulsive disorder where they have to touch something over and over again? Or a stutter? Or a nervous tic that only comes out in front of large groups? Or a cough? Or a gag? Or a passing out when they see blood? Or when a person has dementia and acts and says something odd? etc. etc. Those actions were generated by the spirit? You really believe that?

I don't think the spirit drives all behaviors and movements and "animations". Yes, I believe the spirit animates the body but that does not necessarily mean the reverse is true that the body has to be animated by the spirit. David O' Mckay, if you look at it carefully is not saying that the body has to be animated by the spirit. The teaching here is that the spirit existed before the body and after the body returns to dust. If you are reading more into it than that, then that is your own interpretation.

[RanMan]

Perhaps you don't realize that the body is animated by the spirit and that makes up the "soul" of man but that doesn't necessarily mean the body cannot be animated on its own.

I'm quite familiar with what constitutes a soul. However, your response just reinforces my thought that you may not have a clear understanding of what it means to be animated - which is, as President McKay indicates, the first basic truth of life.

Let me give you a few scenarios that you can tell me if the spirit is "animating" the body in those situations. When a person is drunk? or under the influence of drugs? When a person sleep walks? a good example being REM sleep behavior disorder (read about it if you don't know what that is - where people act out their dreams punching and kicking, even injuring their spouse, but they are mild mannered people that would never do such a thing when they are awake)? Or when a person has a seizure? Or myoclonus? Or Parkinson's? Or Tourette's Syndrome? Or obsessive compulsive disorder where they have to touch something over and over again? Or a stutter? Or a nervous tic that only comes out in front of large groups? Or a cough? Or a gag? Or a passing out when they see blood? Or when a person has dementia and acts and says something odd? etc. etc. Those actions were generated by the spirit? You really believe that?

None of these examples have an impact on how a spirit "animates" a body. As such, they have no impact on my original statement.

:)

Edited August 31, 2010 by RanMan