Questions

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Would a human clone be considered to have a soul?

What becomes of stillborn or aborted babies in terms of their non-mortal existence? Are they queued up for another shot at mortal life or do they proceed on?

I believe a human being would have a spirit no matter how the body got here.

I personally believe aborted and stillborn babies are "reassigned" (in the case of abortion) to another family or "resent" (in the case of miscarriage) to the same family.

I have 2nd hand knowledge of a family that had a miscarriage years earlier then later had a child, one day the child said to his mother "I tried to come before, but something happened."

[RanMan]

I believe a human being would have a spirit no matter how the body got here.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

Thank you.

:)

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm quite familiar with what constitutes a soul. However, your response just reinforces my thought that you may not have a clear understanding of what it means to be animated - which is, as President McKay indicates, the first basic truth of life.

None of these examples have an impact on how a spirit "animates" a body. As such, they have no impact on my original statement.

:)

Your original statement is that it is the spirit/soul that animates the body and therefore the clone body would have to have a spirit. (paraphrased) Then I responded with an example of how a body can be animated without a spirit (presumably) as a serious discussion with which you put me on the defense by saying that my response was not serious. If you want to dismiss what I am saying as irrelevant that is your prerogative but you do not have to judge something that I ponder and wonder about and what I think the original post was getting at as being not serious just because you don't take it seriously.

I think we both agree that the spirit animates the body. And, yes I have an understanding of what that means. I think where you are making an extrapolation from that statement is that the body always has to be animated by a spirit. If you are trying to say that the body always without exception has to be animated by a spirit then the examples I gave do have an impact on your original statement. You can go ahead and choose to ignore my points and call them not serious but then I am only to assume that you believe every action of the body is driven by the spirit. If you want to keep saying I have no clue as to what "animate" means then please be bold enough to give me your definition of "animate".

I think you are not willing to consider that I am talking about examples in which the body is animated without the input from the spirit and so yes that is true, I am not talking about "how the spirit animates the body" but you are wrong in saying that it is not a serious discussion or that it does not have an impact on your original statement. ... in my opinion. So, how do you define "animate"? and do you think every action of the body is "animated"?

[RanMan]

I think we both agree that the spirit animates the body.

Then there isn't anything more to discuss. This is all that matters as to the topic of the thread. The spirit animating the body answers the question in the original post.

"Would a human clone be considered to have a soul?"

Since the spirit animates the body then clones would have souls.

:)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Then there isn't anything more to discuss. This is all that matters as to the topic of the thread. The spirit animating the body answers the question in the original post.

"Would a human clone be considered to have a soul?"

Since the spirit animates the body then clones would have souls.

:)

I don't know why I am having a hard time expressing this to you, sorry. I'll try one more time. ... I think you are using reverse logic to make that claim.

Do teenagers drive cars? yes. Therefore every car is driven by teenagers. This is the kind of logic you are using.

Does a spirit animate a body? yes. Therefore every body is animated by a spirit.

I can agree with you that a spirit can animate a body without having to claim that every body is animated by a spirit. It probably does rest on our differing views of what "animate" means, but you won't provide me your definition of "animate" so it does make it hard to discuss anything more about it.

Does your definition of "animate" include someone in a manic phase who jumps the wall of temple square to "talk to Jesus"? Is it the spirit animating that body or is the body alone acting? Or when my grandma who has Alzheimers, bless her soul, gets up in testimony meeting and claims that "Joseph Smith is a sexy man" is that the spirit animating the body or the body animating itself and the spirit has lost control? If you would say it is not the spirit in those situations then you would say it is possible for the body to be animated without the input from the spirit. ... And yet I could still claim that a spirit animates a body and that is a fundamental aspect of "life". I don't think my grandmother will have many of the things she does in her current state considered part of her earthly "life" as she has lost control of her body in many respects. But if you say it must needs be that all animations of the body are driven by the spirit then I suppose she will be judged for everything she does and says even in her current state. ... these are just things to consider, I don't think you have to be closed minded about it or say that my statement was not in hopes of a serious discussion.

[anim82r]

Actually, we don't know that. We do not know when mortal probation starts, but we are fairly certain it has started by the time a child is born. Whether or not a child in the womb has begun his or her mortal probation is very unclear in our doctrine, and there's good arguments for both sides.

LDS policy kind of splits the difference, saying that stillborn children may be included in family group sheets, but temple ordinances are not done on their behalf (even children who die before the age of 8 must go through the washing and anointing, endowment, and sealing (if applicable). So if it's unclear for stillborn children, it must be even murkier for aborted children.

Hmmm... I thanked Connie for her post. But your post also makes sense. Thanks!

[RanMan]

I don't know why I am having a hard time expressing this to you, sorry. I'll try one more time. ... I think you are using reverse logic to make that claim.

Do teenagers drive cars? yes. Therefore every car is driven by teenagers. This is the kind of logic you are using.

Does a spirit animate a body? yes. Therefore every body is animated by a spirit.

I can agree with you that a spirit can animate a body without having to claim that every body is animated by a spirit. It probably does rest on our differing views of what "animate" means, but you won't provide me your definition of "animate" so it does make it hard to discuss anything more about it.

Does your definition of "animate" include someone in a manic phase who jumps the wall of temple square to "talk to Jesus"? Is it the spirit animating that body or is the body alone acting? Or when my grandma who has Alzheimers, bless her soul, gets up in testimony meeting and claims that "Joseph Smith is a sexy man" is that the spirit animating the body or the body animating itself and the spirit has lost control? If you would say it is not the spirit in those situations then you would say it is possible for the body to be animated without the input from the spirit. ... And yet I could still claim that a spirit animates a body and that is a fundamental aspect of "life". I don't think my grandmother will have many of the things she does in her current state considered part of her earthly "life" as she has lost control of her body in many respects. But if you say it must needs be that all animations of the body are driven by the spirit then I suppose she will be judged for everything she does and says even in her current state. ... these are just things to consider, I don't think you have to be closed minded about it or say that my statement was not in hopes of a serious discussion.

An´i`mate

v. t. 1. To give natural life to; to make alive; to quicken; as, the soul animates the body.

[imp. & p. p. Animated; p. pr. & vb. n. Animating.]

Which is what President McKay stated. Which is what I stated. A clone, since it is animated, has a soul / spirit. I don't think it gets any plainer than that.

[Guest mysticmorini]

Actually, we don't know that. We do not know when mortal probation starts, but we are fairly certain it has started by the time a child is born. Whether or not a child in the womb has begun his or her mortal probation is very unclear in our doctrine, and there's good arguments for both sides.

LDS policy kind of splits the difference, saying that stillborn children may be included in family group sheets, but temple ordinances are not done on their behalf (even children who die before the age of 8 must go through the washing and anointing, endowment, and sealing (if applicable). So if it's unclear for stillborn children, it must be even murkier for aborted children.

actually to clarify, as per the CHI no baptism or endowment is preformed for a child who dies before the age of 8. only sealings to parents are preformed if the child hadn't already been sealed or wasnt born under the covenant.

as for aborted children the CHI defines stillborn as "children who die before birth" i believe that this would include aborted children.

In Judaism a child is considered to be a part of the mother until a certain portion of its body has left the mother. it may be the case that a still born or aborted child is still considered a part of its mother and is therefore under the same covenants and blessings as the mother. of course that last bit is pure speculation.

[Seminarysnoozer]

An´i`mate

v. t. 1. To give natural life to; to make alive; to quicken; as, the soul animates the body.

[imp. & p. p. Animated; p. pr. & vb. n. Animating.]

Which is what President McKay stated. Which is what I stated. A clone, since it is animated, has a soul / spirit. I don't think it gets any plainer than that.

"Plain" is a good description.