counsel vs. commandment


Guest mysticmorini
 Share

Recommended Posts

 

This for starters:

 

We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.
Spencer W. KimballSpencer W. Kimball, "The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball," p. 303

 

 

A white person marrying a black person in 1965 in the United States of America would have gigantic obstacles.  An Arab marrying a Jew in today's Middle East would have gigantic obstacles.

 

I am a Filipino married to an American - even with the Philippines being an American commonwealth for a while with the same teachings on the God-given right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I can tell you with all my being that I wouldn't advice anybody doing so.

 

My marriage is working, not because I think the Prophets are wrong, but because my husband and I both acknowledge that the Prophets are right and that we have to seek God's will and doubly triply quadruply guard our marriage against the promised pitfalls of such a union.

 

But note - marriage is a union with Eternal consequences and at the point where my husband was placed infront of me, our eternal path was forged from which I have gained very very vast eternal blessings.  If it was just a tattoo and ear-piercings, I wouldn't bother with going against the counsel of the prophets.  For what am I to gain from such?  A beautiful butterfly on my ankle?  For what eternal purpose?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My marriage is working, not because I think the Prophets are wrong, but because my husband and I both acknowledge that the Prophets are right and that we have to seek God's will and doubly triply quadruply guard our marriage against the promised pitfalls of such a union.

 

And because your husband likes rice.

 

Ah man...was that racist? That was racist wasn't it? Dang it.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please be more explicit. Maybe use small words that I can understand. What is unrealistic about Elder Kimball's teachings?

 

 

Do you really think any person of authority in the church would pronounce this in any public venue today?

 

I married in 1971 to a very good person, while not from the US or necessarily what one perceives as "white", has ended up as a long term marriage with children etc.

 

We'd heard of this "counsel" at the time (we were both BYU students) but luckily ignored it.  We felt it was much more important that we held common church values together going forward than considerations of ethnicity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And because your husband likes rice.

 

Ah man...was that racist? That was racist wasn't it? Dang it.

 

There's nothing racist about rice.  WHITE rice.  It is plain fact.  Filipinos will not live long when rabid Paleo dieters gain majority in Congress. 

 

And see... that's just another one of the pitfalls of a white American marrying a Filipino... he looks at my spaghetti with a side of rice like it's the craziest thing he's ever beheld.  I look at his high-priced-restaurant steak and potatoes and beg to be released from this no-rice prison!  Steak without rice is incomprehensible. 

 

:D

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you really think any person of authority in the church would pronounce this in any public venue today?

 

 

 

Hence, the need for Living Prophets.

 

Do you know that the World has gotten Smaller in the advent of modern telecommunications which became widespread long after Kimball's talk?

 

But yes, a person of authority in the church TODAY would not advocate an American marrying, say, an ISIS operative.  And if needed, will announce it at the pulpit  no matter how politically correct Americans have become.

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hence, the need for Living Prophets.

 

Do you know that the World has gotten Smaller in the advent of modern telecommunications which became widespread long after Kimball's talk?

 

But yes, a person of authority in the church TODAY would not advocate an American marrying, say, an ISIS operative.  And if needed, will announce it at the pulpit  no matter how politically correct Americans have become.

 

It's more than the world has gotten smaller.  Over half the members no longer live in Utah-Idaho-Arizona corridor.  My whole point is that context is everything in these "counsels" and that people are human and products of their upbringing and environment.  So getting back to the topic, there is no equivalency whatsoever between a commandment and "counsel".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely nothing.

 

What is wrong with Americans?  And let's not even go into the funny American accent.

 

;)

 

One of the big "issues" (if you can call it that) I had on my mission was that this stupid 19 year old white-bred Utahn WHO DIDN'T LIKE RICE was sent to the Philippines.

 

Best way NOT to do missoinary work in the Philippines:

 

Filipino: Would you like some rice?

Missionary: No thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Postscript: I learned to like rice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there is no equivalency whatsoever between a commandment and "counsel".

 

Let's just see how this aligns with a few scriptures:

 

D&C 58:20

Let no man think he is ruler; but let God rule him that judgeth, according to the counsel of his own will, or, in other words, him that counseleth or sitteth upon the judgment seat.

 

D&C 124:84

And with my servant Almon Babbitt, there are many things with which I am not pleased; behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church; and he setteth up a golden calf for the worship of my people.

 

Jacob 4:10...13

Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works. ....  But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.

 

D&C 122:2

While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.

 

Proverbs 12:15

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

 

Proverbs 1:24-30

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

 

2 Nephi 15:19

That say: Let him make speed, hasten his work, that we may see it; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it.

 

Isaiah 44:24-26

24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things;that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

 

D&C 124:13, 61

13 Let him, therefore, hearken to your counsel, and I will bless him with a multiplicity of blessings; let him be faithful and true in all things from henceforth, and he shall be great in mine eyes;

 

61 That he may receive also the counsel from those whom I have set to be as plants of renown, and as watchmen upon her walls.

 

D&C 124:112 - 114

112 This let him do if he will have an interest; and let him hearken unto the counsel of my servant Joseph, and labor with his own hands that he may obtain the confidence of men.

113 And when he shall prove himself faithful in all things that shall be entrusted unto his care, yea, even a few things, he shall be made ruler over many;

114 Let him therefore abase himself that he may be exalted. Even so. Amen.

 

D&C 105:37

And inasmuch as they follow the counsel which they receive, they shall have power after many days to accomplish all things pertaining to Zion.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a real treat: Boyd K Packer 180th General conference: His referencing at the time prop 8 and with out saying it homosexual relations

 

“If we’re not alert, there are those today who not
only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that will legalize
immorality, as if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God’s
laws and nature … what good would a vote against the law of
gravity do?”

“Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what

they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and the
unnatural,” he said. “Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that
to anyone?”

 

So ELder Packer opines that God would not encumber an individual with homosexual tendencies....Doctrine or opinion?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a real treat: Boyd K Packer 180th General conference: His referencing at the time prop 8 and with out saying it homosexual relations

 

“If we’re not alert, there are those today who not

only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that will legalize

immorality, as if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God’s

laws and nature … what good would a vote against the law of

gravity do?”

“Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what

they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and the

unnatural,” he said. “Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that

to anyone?”

 

So ELder Packer opines that God would not encumber an individual with homosexual tendencies....Doctrine or opinion?

 

Elder Packer never said what you claim. The word "that" does not refer to "inborn tendencies toward the impure and the unnatural." Clearly, the antecedent is "cannot overcome".

 

And yes, it's solid doctrine, no two ways about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Elder Packer never said what you claim. The word "that" does not refer to "inborn tendencies toward the impure and the unnatural." Clearly, the antecedent is "cannot overcome".

 

And yes, it's solid doctrine, no two ways about it.

So what's the doctrine we are reading a quote that he defiantly said. He referred to homosexuality without actually saying it. If he didn't what was he referring to? Please be specific

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what's the doctrine we are reading a quote that he defiantly said. He referred to homosexuality without actually saying it. If he didn't what was he referring to? Please be specific

 

I haven't even a clue what you are talking about. Elder Packer didn't defiantly say anything. He taught in a clear, measured tone. What you find defiant about it, I cannot even guess.

 

Let me rephrase the relevant part of what Elder Packer taught so that perhaps you can understand it better:

 

Some people believe that God has created them with unchangeable and insurmountable challenges [such as homosexual attraction], but this is false. A loving God would not do that. [i.e. Homosexual challenges they might well have, but such challenges are certainly not insurmountable.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't even a clue what you are talking about. Elder Packer didn't defiantly say anything. He taught in a clear, measured tone. What you find defiant about it, I cannot even guess.

 

Let me rephrase the relevant part of what Elder Packer taught so that perhaps you can understand it better:

 

Some people believe that God has created them with unchangeable and insurmountable challenges [such as homosexual attraction], but this is false. A loving God would not do that. [i.e. Homosexual challenges they might well have, but such challenges are certainly not insurmountable.]

This is the actual quote from LDS.org:  We must understand that any persuasion to enter into any relationship that is not in harmony with the principles of the gospel must be wrong. From the Book of Mormon we learn that “wickedness never was happiness.” 13 

 

Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father. 

 

So is homosexuality is not a preset or inborn temptation? According to Elder Packer, can we agree he said this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the actual quote from LDS.org:  We must understand that any persuasion to enter into any relationship that is not in harmony with the principles of the gospel must be wrong. From the Book of Mormon we learn that “wickedness never was happiness.” 13 

 

Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father. 

 

So is homosexuality is not a preset or inborn temptation? According to Elder Packer, can we agree he said this?

 

 

Omega... Vort said it already... "Not so!" refer to "Preset AND CANNOT OVERCOME".  Homosexuality is a mortal state, not an eternal state, therefore it is not preset even as some may be born with the proclivity.  Remember, we are eternal beings, therefore mortal state is temporary.  Being born with it in mortality does not mean it is Who We Are.  Gender, on the other hand, is an eternal state.  We cannot change our eternal gender but we sure can overcome homosexuality through God's promise that he won't give us what we can't bear.

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Omega... Vort said it already... "Not so!" refer to "Preset AND CANNOT OVERCOME".  Homosexuality is a mortal state, not an eternal state, therefore it is not preset even as some may be born with the proclivity.  

Well the church doesn't agree with you on this. They have no official position on nurture vs nature regarding inborn/preset tendencies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well the church doesn't agree with you on this. They have no official position on nurture vs nature regarding inborn/preset tendencies.

 

She just said some may be born with the proclivity. And then you said the church doesn't agree because they...allow for the same thing...???

 

What is wrong with you? I swear you just argue to argue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well the church doesn't agree with you on this. They have no official position on nurture vs nature regarding inborn/preset tendencies.

 

That's EXACTLY why I said " even as some may be born with the proclivity".  Maybe I should have said "even IF...".  It doesn't matter whether it's nurture or nature!    Elder Packer's quote is STILL correct.

 

Sometimes I feel like I'm writing in a foreign (to you) language... I seem to have a hard time having people understand what I'm saying.  :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share