counsel vs. commandment

[anim82r]

I'm not trying to justify anything it was merely an example. perhaps if you reread the previous posts before mine you would understand why i said what i said. The statement was made that feeling comfortable or being willing to do something in front of the savior was the measure to use when determining what is right or wrong. I simply disagree there are a number of things which many people would feel comfortable doing in front of the savior which are explicitly not ok. many non-mormons would have no problem drinking in front of the savior. at the same time there are things which are ok that i would not feel comfortable doing in front of the savior, sexual relations with a spouse for example.

I think you're contradicting yourself here. And how did you know they'd be comfortable doing things they ought not to in front of the Savior? And why do you have to include sexual relations with a spouse to not doing it in front of the Savior? Sheesh! I can't believe I even have to type that here just so you can know it is disrespect to Christ for you saying that. Did you say that to prove your point? Disregarding a little respect for the sake of argument? C'mon! you're better than that!

[Dravin]

And how did you know they'd be comfortable doing things they ought not to in front of the Savior?

They'd say they would, considering it's supposed to be a question they ask to guide themselves it's all about the subjective (how they think the hypothetical would play out as opposed to some sort of objective knowledge of how it actually would). It's quite like Hordak pointed out, a Jew might think we'd not be comfortable wearing cloth of mixed fibers in-front of the Lord but asking us if we'd be comfortable doing such and we'll say yes.

And why do you have to include sexual relations with a spouse to not doing it in front of the Savior?

Because it's a valid counter point to the claim, mostly chosen because of the inherent emotional impact and, to an LDS audience, the obviousness of it not being immoral. If being willing to do something in front of the Savior is the universal standard by which behavior can be judged then, in the context of the counter point, that means either marital relations are not acceptable or the standard isn't universal.

Mystic has rather handily demonstrated that as a standard it is neither universal, nor infallible due to people getting the 'wrong' answer when asking themselves the hypothetical. It's useful, much like asking ourselves "What Would Jesus Do?" can be useful as it helps us focus our thoughts and reflect but it can be problematic if taken to the extreme. For instance I highly doubt if placed in similar circumstances the correct action to take is to perform the miracle of the Loaves and the Fishes or change water into wine for a wedding feast.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Dravin

[Guest mysticmorini]

i was going to reply to anim82r but i dont think i could do a better job than Dravin explaining my position. I apologize if you misunderstood my reasoning or if my point was unclear to you. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the savior and am hurt that you would interpret my post as anything but respectful. but thats the nature of the internet. you must have thick skin at all times.

[EandLDOW]

It's good to remember that the questions asked in the temple recommend interview are to establish the MINIMUM level of qualification to enter the temple. To gain the full blessings of the temple, more is required. Careful prayerful study of the scriptures and the teaching of the modern prophets will give guidance on what is needed.

[Guest mysticmorini]

well of course one will receive more blessings and be closer to god for fallowing all commandments and council. however to get back to the original purpose of the thread, is there a fundamental difference between council and commandment? we could even include church policy in the equation. what is the difference between commandment, council, and policy? remember at one time it was church policy that no blacks be ordained to the priesthood.

[Misshalfway]

I think it gets a little muddy when we start dealing with local church officials.

For example, a lot of folks in my stake got interested in some mental health seminars. The leader was a rather charismatic sort who used some confrontational methods to help people get over their "stuff". It might be liked to a Byron Katie seminar where one person in the crowd is singled out and they get one on one face time with the leader.

Well, a few neighbors got rather zealous with this and told all the block the "had to go". He went so far as to tell a prospective missionary that he should wait to serve his mission until he attended this 6 weeks of "therapy." Long story short, the parents got mad and went to the Stake Pres. Next Sunday morning all the bishops have a letter strongly discouraging any of the members from attending said seminar.

You decide: counsel or commandment?

[Guest mysticmorini]

how long ago was that? i seem to remember a specific section of the CHI addressing this issue. wonder if it was added as a result of that incident?

[avatar4321]

To be honest, it really doesn't matter to me whether the Lord is counseling or commanding. I think it's probably a good idea to follow it regardless.

[anim82r]

i was going to reply to anim82r but i dont think i could do a better job than Dravin explaining my position. I apologize if you misunderstood my reasoning or if my point was unclear to you. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the savior and am hurt that you would interpret my post as anything but respectful. but thats the nature of the internet. you must have thick skin at all times.

You're right about the nature of the internet. I tell the same thing to other people who may have misinterpreted something from others. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm hurting for the Savior that I'll defend Him at the best I could. I now believe it wasn't your intention to disrespect Him. It's just that I got tired of all the arguments and contentions roaming around this site and I'm surprised to find out most of them are LDS, that I thought you are just one of them, but maybe you're not. I did not realize such culture do exist in the Church that when I found it out I became a little more ferocious in defending the Principles of the Gospel and the doctrines incorporated with it because we rarely have such among LDS here in the Philippines. We reason with each other kindly and nicely. I discovered it was harder to defend the Gospel from LDS themselves who hold strong personal philosophies and interpretation of the doctrine. I have so much respect for our American fellow LDS because of their superior performance as missionaries here in our country. That's why it hurt me a great deal to find so much of American LDS in this site who do not hold the same nature as these missionaries have. It was a frustration for me that I did not visit this site for a very long time. And when I do I rarely do so just like now.

Dravin's great. I commend him for explaining everything well. Somehow it appeased my frustration of encountering same Pseudo-LDS over and over again here in this site. And you're right again, i must have thick skin at all times. Thanks to both of you guys.:)

[EandLDOW]

"I'm not trying to justify anything it was merely an example. perhaps if you reread the previous posts before mine you would understand why i said what i said. The statement was made that feeling comfortable or being willing to do something in front of the savior was the measure to use when determining what is right or wrong. I simply disagree there are a number of things which many people would feel comfortable doing in front of the savior which are explicitly not ok."

That's easy to say, but I have to believe they think they'll be comfortable simply because they don't really know the Lord and what His standards are. When the time comes that they do stand before the Lord, they probably won't be so comfortable.

"well of course one will receive more blessings and be closer to god for fallowing all commandments and council. however to get back to the original purpose of the thread, is there a fundamental difference between council and commandment?"

Did you just answer your own question?

When we know the Lord, that he is perfect, loves us perfectly, took upon himself all our sins and ailments, heartaches and disappointments, and wants nothing but for us to become truly happy and become like him, and when he , or his servants, give us commandments, counsel, advice, or whatever you want to call it, that it's for our own good.......well, why would you not want to do it?? Just simply out of stubborness? Maybe pride? maybe rebelliousness?

Edited October 10, 2010 by EandLDOW

[Guest mysticmorini]

than EandLDOW are you saying that all council is universal and that there are no exceptions?

[martybess]

In other words, if one is a member of the church, it is all commandment under the covenant of baptism.

I would say under the covenants made in the temple.

[martybess]

When we choose to disregard inspired counsel, we begin to orient our course away from the celestial kingdom. If we do not repent, we will drift away off-course.

Let me use an example. Go watch the movie Apollo 13. It's a gripping drama and a true life story. There's an important gospel lesson in it, believe it or not.

Apollo 13 experienced an explosion of an oxygen tank on the way out to the moon. The main spacecraft that was designed to return them to earth lost all its oxygen and all its electricity. The astronauts couldn't be sure, but it was assumed that the explosion destroyed their rocket engine that would allow them to control their flight path.

The astronauts relied on a "redeemer"--the spaceship that was designed to land them on the moon. It had enough oxygen to get them home--barely. This "redeemer" gave them hope, but they had to follow careful directions and listen to the instructions from mission control. Like us, we need to lean on the Redeemer and listen to Mission Control (the Spirit).

The venting oxygen gradually put them a few degrees off course. It was almost imperceptible, but the drift was very real. A few degrees, multiplied across almost a half-million miles would have been disastrous. Likewise with us, sin throws us off course. When we break commandments, it destroys our "life support system" and our ability to navigate our course back home. When we disregard inspired counsel--even a little bit, it has an impact. Multiplied over the course of a mortal life, it adds up. We can easily find ourselves way off-course, even though the error seemed almost negligible.

The astronauts had to reenter the earth's atmosphere at the perfect angle--going nearly 25,000 mph! There was no room for error. If they came in too steep, they'd burn up like a meteor. If they came in too shallow, they'd skip off the atmosphere like a stone skipping on a lake's surface.

Likewise, the way into the celestial kingdom is very "strait and narrow." The Savior said that "few there be that find it." If we fail to follow counsel of the Lord's inspired servants, our mistakes will lead to greater sins. We will find ourselves unable to make a proper "re-entry" to the celestial kingdom.

Repentance allows us to get back on course. Listen to "mission control"--the voice of the Spirit. If we don't follow the instructions or disregard them, we won't make it back.

That's a great analogy!

[EandLDOW]

than EandLDOW are you saying that all council is universal and that there are no exceptions?

All I'm saying is that when God advises you to do or not do something, it's for your own good. Why not follow the advice of God?

What exceptions could there be? Do you think God would tell you to do or not to do something and that advice would be harmful to you in some way?

[Blackmarch]

what is the difference between counsel and a commandment? in general it has been my observation that everything not covered in a temple recommend interview would be considered counsel. are the things we are counseled to do obligatory (things like avoiding caffeine and R-rated movies) or are they optional or wise counsel much like the word of wisdom originally was?

Command:

Do...

Don't do....

Counsel:

You should..

If you.. then this ... will happen.

Generally I view counsel as personal instruction, and commandments to be more broad.

[Whynot]

In other words, if one is a member of the church, it is all commandment under the covenant of baptism.

In Genesis it was said that Abraham was blessed because he "obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statures, and My laws." (26:5)

Relating to the gospel, Jesus said in the great commission to make disciples of Him, baptize them and teach them to keep His commandments. In a way baptism is one of the commandments of the Lord, and certainly important enough to place it at the center of the instructions.

How many of you have opened the gospels and started noting each and every commandement Jesus gave? I did this for Matthew and came up with over 200, and those are just the commandments - not to mention things that we might consider a precept.

Seems to me we could do as Abraham and apply those things to Jesus, that we hear His voice and obey (My sheep hear My voice), keep His charge (anyone know what Jesus said that is?), the commandments of Jesus Christ (to date I've found hundreds), and what are the statutes according to Jesus? and what are His laws? He certainly upheld the things written in the OT and provided much more enlightenment of righteousness - such as 'thou shalt not kill' to even apply to being angry without cause.

Just a couple of thoughts...

[pam]

Whynot..what are some of the things you have read and consider to be commandments in your reading of the gospels that you feel others might not?

[Whynot]

There are too many to post here, but you can check out my web site:

One Disciple to Another

His commandments went far beyond the 'golden rule' and 'greatest commandment'.

[pam]

Thank you. I have added it to my favorites to look through at a future time.

[Whynot]

This is a great question and one that I struggled with for a bit in my research into what the commandments of Jesus Christ are. Often people view the matter as the commandment of Jesus is to love God first, then your neighbor as yourself and that is the sum of His commandments. But the more I got into looking at His doctrine, the more I realized this is really a gross over simplification.

If we return to the Lord's teachings to investigate and ponder the issue, I think the matter will become evident, and I agree with the early post which quoted President Hinkley. We should be abiding in everything He taught and not parse the issue to only abide in the commandments - and thank God for His mercy, as no one can even do a really good job at that if the depths of the matter face him from the beginning, but with God all things are possible.

Jesus gave us commandments and precepts, prophecy and promises, and died to give us life. Who can argue with a commandment being 'Thou shalt' or 'Thou shalt not'? Then we come to the 'Verily, verily' sayings, which are akin to the 'You have heard it said,..., but I say unto you'.

The fact is that if we claim Jesus as our Lord, can we then say we aren't going to do what He said for us to do? As Peter quoted Moses in Acts 3:22,23, that we are to hear whatever that Prophet says to us, and whoever will not hear that Prophet will be cut off from the people.

Are we without excuse if we can read and have a Bible? If we have a Bible and can read, what will our excuse be to the Lord when He asks how we lived our lives as His disciples and will account for our words and deeds according to what He preached? What He commanded? What He said real love is? and you can't know what these are and not be able to identify what it isn't as well.

I agree with President Hinkley, that if we are living a purposeful life for the Lord, that we just want to do what He said to do - commandment or precept? We need to do abide in whatever Jesus taught.

[martybess]

"the greatest lesson we can learn in mortality is that when God speaks and we obey, we will always be right"

- Ensign » 2007 » October They Marked the Path to Follow By President Thomas S. Monson

I guess the key questions here is the word "speaks". Is that when the Prophet says "thus saith the Lord God" or when he says "you would be advised". Great quote none the less.

Edited October 24, 2010 by martybess

[Whynot]

- Ensign » 2007 » October They Marked the Path to Follow By President Thomas S. Monson

I guess the key questions here is the word "speaks". Is that when the Prophet says "thus saith the Lord God" or when he says "you would be advised". Great quote none the less.

 

That's a good one.  One of mine is "You'll never have to repent for doing what God said."

[JayGlad]

I think if you worry about it enough to have to ask, it's probably something you want to do but deep inside you know you should not do.

 

Frankly, I have a real problem with members of the Church who toss out the question: "If you have to ask, then you shouldn't do it."  

 

While taking the missionary discussions, had I followed such "counsel" (based upon its seriously flawed logic) then I would not have joined the Church.

 

"ASKING" (can I emphasis it more?) is a fundamental principle! The scriptures are replete with the admonition to "ask," "seek," and "knock." When we do these things by the Spirit, then we are promised that we shall "find" the answers (and more).

 

Using the above retort does nothing but expose the laziness the of one posing it to the questioner.

[ether-ore]

_{There are a couple of sayings I think are applicable.  "Your wish is my command" and 'He that must be commanded in all things is a lazy and a slothful servant'.}

[luquinti]

ANSWER TO counsel vs. commandment, FROM A LDS TEACHER:

 

I was teaching the youth about dating nonmembers, and a gave this quote:

 

“Clearly, right marriage begins with right dating. … Therefore, this warning comes with great emphasis. Do not take the chance of dating nonmembers, or members who are untrained and faithless. A girl may say, ‘Oh, I do not intend to marry this person. It is just a “fun” date.’ But one cannot afford to take a chance on falling in love with someone who may never accept the gospel”.                                                                               

Our Heavenly Father wants you to date young men who are faithful members of the Church, who will be worthy to take you to the temple and be married the Lord’s way. Don’t settle for less than what the Lord wants you to be.                                                                                                                                                                           Ezra Taft Benson, “To the Young Women of the Church,” Ensign, Nov 1986

 

 

There were two people who opposed it, one was a a girl who was dating nonmember and the other was a leader counselor who married a nonmenber.

 

The leader counser said that it is not a commandment, it is ONLY a counsel.

 

Then I said, that the ``LORD WANTS´´ is a commandment.

 

 

She then said, that commandments are only those in the temple interview.

 

Then I asked her if they asked her in the temple inteview if she stores food.

 

She said no, because to store food is a counsel, not a commandment.

 

Then we opened to this quote:

 

How often do we say, “Yes, I will obey the commandment to store food and to help others, but just now I have neither the time nor the money to spare; I will obey later”? Oh, foolish people! While we procrastinate, the harvest will be over and we will not be saved. Now is the time to follow Abraham’s example; now is the time to repent; now is the time for prompt obedience to God’s will.

Spencer W. Kimball, “The Example of Abraham,” Ensign, Jun 1975

 

Here President kimball said: commandment to store food.

 

So, she then kept herself quiet with an angry face.

 

I´m not that kind of teacher who likes to make students feel bad, but unfortunately I had to do that in order to teach correct commandments of dating nonmembers to everybody.

 

Although it didn´t commented in the class, it come to my mind the following:

 

 

The proud do not receive counsel or correction easily. (See Prov. 15:10; Amos 5:10.) Defensiveness is used by them to justify and rationalize their frailties and failures. (See Matt. 3:9; John 6:30–59.)

Ezra Taft Benson, “Beware of Pride,” Ensign, May 1989