For non LDS faiths.

[Mute]

I'm having a some what difficult time finding out exactly what other Christian faiths believe regarding God's interaction with people. For example, I have heard the argument before that God could not have talked with Joseph Smith because God does not talk with people. I don't know what faiths believe that God does not talk to people but I would like to know. I would also like to know what your faith believes regarding miracles etc. Does your faith believe God answers prayers? Please state the faith you belong to with your answer. I'm having a difficult time finding an official answer from faiths on this question. Thanks in advance.

[prisonchaplain]

Here are the official Assemblies of God positions on modern prophets and prophecy, and on the general question of God doing miracles today:

Prophets and Personal Prophecies

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/gendoct_20_miracles.cfm

[jaiotu]

The Book of Hebrews begins with the following introduction:

"After God spoke long ago in various portions and in various ways to our ancestors through the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us in a son."

A common understanding of this passage is that God's revelation to humanity has been made complete in Christ... that the age of prophets is now passed and God's revelation through Christ by His Apostles contains a complete and finished revelation.

As a Reformed Baptist, I adhere to the London Baptist Confession of 1689 which states, in regard to divine revelation:

"...those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people (are) now ceased."

I believe that the need for prophets and apostles and continuing revelation are not only not necessary, but would also be counter productive. Those parts of Scripture that are necessary to salvation are clear and plain and can be understood without great theological training.

[jayanna]

This is something I am curious about as well, what is the difference between pastors and ministers, apostles and prophets?

Are they just titles or is it an organizational structure?

My uncle was a Methodist minister, he preached and explained what some scriptures were saying and how they apply to our problems today, he loved those he taught like Jesus loves us, and he helped us love one another. This seems exactly like what my bishop does, and what my husband does in our home. What is the difference really?

Are church leaders in other faiths considered representatives of Christ, or considered to carry authority from God to baptize and marry etc? or they just a guide and members of those churches are left mainly on their own in life decisions, etc.?

Is counsel they give considered to be counsel from the Lord and revelation?

thanks, :)

Edited September 6, 2010 by jayanna

[prisonchaplain]

I believe that the need for prophets and apostles and continuing revelation are not only not necessary, but would also be counter productive. Those parts of Scripture that are necessary to salvation are clear and plain and can be understood without great theological training.

This view is standard for Cessationists--those who believe that once the Bible was compiled and recognized there was no further need for revelation. Carried to its logical conclusion, cessationists tended to oppose the healing and pentecostal revivals of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Tongues, and especially interpretations and prophecies were no longer necessary, since God's Word was revealed and complete. Even healing miracles were seen by some as revelatory--meant to demonstrate God's power. Again, since God's written revelation was complete, healing was no longer necessary to reveal God.

The two papers in my post above will, of course, offer a different view. We welcome modern prophecies, revelations, miracles, and the continued practice of the gifts of the Spirit (as demonstrated in the book of Acts, and explained in the first letter to the Corinthians). We see no need to a ceasing or cessation of God's revelations. We even look to such as a fulfillment of the prophet Joel's declaration that in the last days God would pour out his Spirit on both men and women, and that they would prophecy, see visions, and dream dreams.

Where we differ as that with the New Testament, we would agree that Jesus, as God's Son is the final capital-P Prophet, in the Old Testament sense. The application of the gift of prophesy in the New Testament is always local and immediate. See the above linked article for more on this.

[prisonchaplain]

This is something I am curious about as well, what is the difference between pastors and ministers, apostles and prophets?

Are they just titles or is it an organizational structure?

thanks, :)

As to church offices, it's my understanding that LDS bishops do counseling and administration, but less teaching than pastors/ministers (two titles that, along with reverend, mean the same thing). Additionally, LDS members understand that bishops have a calling and authority to counsel, but do not expect professional approaches. They engage in what we would call "lay-Christian spiritual counseling." Bishops in non-LDS churches tend to have authority over a district's ministers. We tend not to use the word "apostle," but see our full-time missionaries fulfilling that role. And again, we have members who prophesy, but we do not see any example in the New Testament of anyone holding a church office of prophet. Also be aware that non-Pentecostal/Charismatic churches would not recognize any member claiming to offer modern prophesy or revelation.

[jayanna]

Well, here is an instance that I would like to see what other faiths would think of...one evening my family were going out to the countryside to visit my husband's parents. We were approaching a steep incline our kids call 'thrill hill' because if daddy speeds up just enough, they rise in their seats. They really look forward to this. On one occasion, instead of speeding up, my husband braked and came to a stop at the top of the hill. Standing in front of us was a large buck. If we had hit that buck, it and we could very well have died.

I asked him, "how did you know?"

He replied, "I saw a picture in my head of a deer smashing into the front of the car, and I braked"

Would the Cessationists or non-Pentecostal/Charismatic churches think that this sudden knowledge came from the adversary?

They must pray. My uncle's church prayed. When he prayed I distinctly felt like he was being heard. Do they pray without expecting an answer?

[ashleybstarr]

From a Pentecostal point of view ( which can vary) I would say that a "Pastor" may tell you it could have been from the enemy or that it is just one of those things that can happen sometimes. We pray and expect miracles, talk in tongues ( I don't). Our Pastors and ministers are not seen as prophets. They are more like teachers. People who know more about a subject then the general public and so help us understand. They are not seen as having any revelation or extra connection with God. Most of them have to go to school to study to be a Pastor. Trinity Western is a large bible college here in BC.

I see funny and totally random things before they happen all the time. Not always important things. I think we can just pick up on stuff sometimes.

[prisonchaplain]

One other interesting point is that God can reveal what is to happen, and yet how to respond remains a matter of will, or agency, or obedience. Paul knew God was leading him to Rome. When a prophecy revealed he would end up in chains if he went, many concluded that he should cancel his plans. Paul, however, gave thanks for the revelation, saying it would help him to spiritually prepare for the suffering he would face. So, when one of our members prophesies or interprets tongues, and starts by saying, "Thus sayeth the Lord..." we must sometimes discern between the Spirit's literal message and a conclusion that may be offered which is "in the flesh" (meaning, not from the Spirit, but rather just a human opinion).

[SteveVH]

This view is standard for Cessationists--those who believe that once the Bible was compiled and recognized there was no further need for revelation. Carried to its logical conclusion, cessationists tended to oppose the healing and pentecostal revivals of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Tongues, and especially interpretations and prophecies were no longer necessary, since God's Word was revealed and complete. Even healing miracles were seen by some as revelatory--meant to demonstrate God's power. Again, since God's written revelation was complete, healing was no longer necessary to reveal God.

The two papers in my post above will, of course, offer a different view. We welcome modern prophecies, revelations, miracles, and the continued practice of the gifts of the Spirit (as demonstrated in the book of Acts, and explained in the first letter to the Corinthians). We see no need to a ceasing or cessation of God's revelations. We even look to such as a fulfillment of the prophet Joel's declaration that in the last days God would pour out his Spirit on both men and women, and that they would prophecy, see visions, and dream dreams.

Where we differ as that with the New Testament, we would agree that Jesus, as God's Son is the final capital-P Prophet, in the Old Testament sense. The application of the gift of prophesy in the New Testament is always local and immediate. See the above linked article for more on this.

It is important to distinguish between public and private interpretation. I am Catholic and so believe that the Jesus Christ IS God's revelation of Himself to mankind. He is God's one and only Word. He has no other. He is the summation and fulfillment of all revelation. Having said that, we constantly receive private revelation which allows us to peel back the onion, so to speak, that we may receive a deeper understanding of the one revelation in Christ.

[prisonchaplain]

Steve, in that chasm between personal revelation and THE REVELATION, there are public revelations. The Pope, for example, when he speaks ex cathedra (sorry if I got the Latin wording wrong), is speaking infallibly--from God. Likewise, whether one accepts modern pentecostal and charismatic interpretations (there is a large Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement, btw), clearly this was going on in the early church. Hope this helps.l

[SteveVH]

Steve, in that chasm between personal revelation and THE REVELATION, there are public revelations. The Pope, for example, when he speaks ex cathedra (sorry if I got the Latin wording wrong), is speaking infallibly--from God. Likewise, whether one accepts modern pentecostal and charismatic interpretations (there is a large Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement, btw), clearly this was going on in the early church. Hope this helps.l

Thanks for responding. I do appreciate it. I think this is a great example of the misunderstanding that seems to be prevalent concerning "THE REVELATION" as you call it.

We believe that the Holy Spirit communicates with our Church on a constant basis. All "new" revelation, however, contains the revelation of Jesus Christ at its center. Christ is the subject of all of Sacred Scripture, both the Old Testament and the New. The world had been waiting for Him since the fall of Adam and Eve. When He came to earth all that the world had been waiting for was finally present. That was the "Good News". The kingdom of God had come and the mission of his Church was to spread the Kingdom to the ends of the earth. We await nothing further. All has been fulfilled in Him. That is what we mean when we say there can be no further revelation. This in no way means that we believe God is now silent. He certainly is not. Hope this helps as well.

[prisonchaplain]

Steve, thank you. That not only helps--it is beautiful!

A few years back I taught a Sunday School series on the Book of Revelation. We went three and a half years with it. I still have my notes--about 100 pages. Unlike many evangelicals, we focused not on signs, wonders, dates, or trying to interpret symbolisms. Instead, we tried to see Christ. After all, this was the revelation of Jesus Christ. Many found it refreshing. Perhaps I did more than the students.

[SteveVH]

Steve, thank you. That not only helps--it is beautiful!

A few years back I taught a Sunday School series on the Book of Revelation. We went three and a half years with it. I still have my notes--about 100 pages. Unlike many evangelicals, we focused not on signs, wonders, dates, or trying to interpret symbolisms. Instead, we tried to see Christ. After all, this was the revelation of Jesus Christ. Many found it refreshing. Perhaps I did more than the students.

Yes, I think it's easy to get caught up in the imagery. It is, after all, a description of a vision. Not an easy task to get through it all. I applaud you for taking the perspective you did and seeing the larger picture.

Thanks for the generous comments. :)