Significance of "Only Begotten"


Seminarysnoozer
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I am not sure what you mean by "pre-conditioned against sin." I've never heard that description before. What do you mean by that?

Well, one of the purposes of this mortal existence is to condition us against sin.

As for number 2, that goes against LDS basic beliefs. This is what it says in Gospel Principles; "Thus, God the Father became the literal Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. That is why He is called the Only Begotten Son. He inherited divine powers from His Father. From His mother He inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death."

Gospel Principles is not scripture. And lots of "LDS basic beliefs" are not based in scripture... Anyway, Alma 7:10 is the best scripture that explains the surroundings of the conception of Christ. What we do know therefore is that the conception of Christ required the Holy Ghost to overshadow her... And that the result of the conception was the Son of God. This leaves much room for interpretation. But the obvious facts are that Jesus was born of a mortal mother, and that mother was a virgin. The fact that Elohim is the Father of Christ does NOT imply that Elohim and the Virgin Mary had a physical relationship... Furthermore, I detest the idea that anyone can inherit divine powers. Divine powers must be earned. Christ was mortal because he was mortal.

As for number 3, I am not sure where those powers come from but as quoted above from Gospel Principles, "He inherited divine powers from His Father." and the next line is, "No one could take the Savior’s life from Him unless He willed it. He had power to lay it down and power to take up His body again after dying." I think that is mostly right, that He knew how to do it but I also think that He was given authority and keys to do so granted by our Heavenly Father.

Christ earned his authority and keys by proving himself worthy. He was not given his powers as a right of birth. The concept that anyone would be given power or authority only by virtue of birthright goes against everything that we have been taught throughout the scripture.

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I also believe that there was a significant difference between the spiritual birth of Jehovah and the spiritual birth of the rest of mankind. The type of spiritual birth that Jehovah had was akin to when a member of the church is spiritually reborn as a son of Christ (D&C 93: 21-22). I believe that the rest of mankind was literally spiritual offspring of Elohim.

1) Christ was able to live a sinless life because he had previously been pre-conditioned against sin.

You are kinda talking against yourself here, He was given special consideration, the pre-conditioning, because of His birth, and yet He has no birthright?

One of the names of Jesus is the Eternal One. Kinda hard to pass off that He is not ....ya know... Eternal.

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If Jesus is of David's lineage, why doesn't this qualify him for a fallen state?

I mean, if you are saying that He is not fallen because he was "begotten" by the father, then that makes me want to ask the reverse question which is why did He have to have an earthly mother?

If He was not fallen, why did He have to grow in stature in the eyes of God and man? Why would He have to fast for 40 days to prepare for His ministry, if He was not in somewhat of a fallen state?

Thanks for your responses.

Good questions:

Jesus' mother Mary provided Jesus with the means to die or to offer his life to complete the atonement. No one could take his life but he could offer it. This is the main reason that The Father could not atone for sin. The Father is eternal and cannot die.

The ancient scripture terms of Jesus growing in stature are types and shadows that symbolically provide “a way” by example for man to ascend to divine enlightenment. Likewise 40 days in the wilderness. The number 40 is symbolic of a trial (temptation) and again is a type and shadow we all will face – a trial to qualify for our divine destiny.

The ancient understanding of covenant required a covenant trial of loyalty before the heir of the Suzerain could complete their mission. It is also interesting and classic in stories and literary examples that the hero must first prove themselves in a trial. The old slay the dragon and save the princess tale then the king would reward half the kingdom.

The ancient scriptures tell us very precious little of the life and adventures of Jesus. It would appear that the Testament that we are given concerns Jesus – his ascension to his calling and destiny and the fulfillment of his covenant with the Father.

The Traveler

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Well, one of the purposes of this mortal existence is to condition us against sin.

Gospel Principles is not scripture. And lots of "LDS basic beliefs" are not based in scripture... Anyway, Alma 7:10 is the best scripture that explains the surroundings of the conception of Christ. What we do know therefore is that the conception of Christ required the Holy Ghost to overshadow her... And that the result of the conception was the Son of God. This leaves much room for interpretation. But the obvious facts are that Jesus was born of a mortal mother, and that mother was a virgin. The fact that Elohim is the Father of Christ does NOT imply that Elohim and the Virgin Mary had a physical relationship... Furthermore, I detest the idea that anyone can inherit divine powers. Divine powers must be earned. Christ was mortal because he was mortal.

Christ earned his authority and keys by proving himself worthy. He was not given his powers as a right of birth. The concept that anyone would be given power or authority only by virtue of birthright goes against everything that we have been taught throughout the scripture.

Thanks for your responses.

Are you suggesting that Jesus had a previous mortal existence? ... to say that He was "pre-conditioned"?

I have faith in what I understand to be the gospel of Jesus Christ, which changes with my level of understanding of course but my faith is in the gospel not in the scriptures. To me the gospel of Jesus Christ is more valuable than scripture itself, as Joseph Smith discovered in the first vision. People interpret scripture differently whereas the gospel of Jesus Christ leads to a single understanding. In that light, 'Gospel Principles' that is now being taught in Relief Society and Priesthood meetings has to be the basics of the gospel of our church and what I have faith in, even if I don't fully understand it. ... but that is what faith is.

Your disgust with the idea of inheriting powers is one of the points of this thread. But don't forget about fore-ordination. He was chosen in the pre-existence. I think the remaining sinless is a principle that allowed Jesus to hold onto those powers and gives Him authority to use it but the "earning" of any power comes after this life. For the same reason many are called but few are chosen, I think the "earning" of Christ' powers was as a function of the council in Heaven when God said, this is how we are going to do this, who can do it? I totally go along with the idea of power and authority and keys have to be earned through foreordination and worthiness but still after that question is how is that power passed from God to Jesus or whomever for that reason. If the power is purely spiritual in nature, like many are trying to suggest, then that raises the question of why Jesus had to be the Only Begotten in the flesh? And if one interprets that as Gospel Principles and other authorities have written that Jesus is not only the spiritual offspring of God and in that way our brother but also is the physical offspring of God, then what is the purpose, value, significance or need for Jesus receiving a certain set of genes from God?

You can be disgusted with the idea of inheriting powers through our physical bodies but you are going to have a hard time ignoring it because it is throughout the scriptures and heavily mixed into our gospel. Next time you go through the temple, count how many times you hear "fruit of your loins" "posterity" and look at how important genealogy and lineage is as well as, in the past, who got the priesthood and who didn't even back in ancient times. You can't ignore the fact that to be like God, we needed a body. The body is not just a pretty wrapping covering our spirit, it allows to have a fullness of joy. There is a certain level of power that comes with having a fullness of joy.

In your last sentence, I never said "only" by virtue of their birthright or genetics for that matter. I am just suggesting that there is something of value there more than what would be if Jesus didn't receive those genes, otherwise why would God do it that way? (And like I said in the opening post, I am not discussing the specifics of 'how' Jesus conception happened, I think that is for another thread.)

Thanks for your thoughts and sorry I am long winded sometimes. :)

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For all you God genes doubters;

The Prophet Ezra Taft Benson (New Era, December 1980) says it pretty clearly here:

"Some six hundred years before Jesus was born, Nephi had a vision. He saw Mary and described her as “a virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.” He then saw her “carried away in the Spirit; … for the space of a time.” When she returned she was bearing a child in her arms, “even the son of the Eternal Father!” (1 Ne. 11:15, 19–21.)

Thus the testimonies of appointed witnesses leave no question as to the paternity of Jesus Christ. God was the Father of His fleshly tabernacle and Mary, a mortal woman, was His mother. He is therefore the only person born who rightfully deserves the title the Only Begotten Son of God.

When the great God of the universe condescended to be born of mortal woman, He submitted Himself to the infirmities of mortality to “suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death” (Mosiah 3:7). These infirmities He inherited from His mortal mother.

But because His Father was God, Jesus Christ had powers which no human had before or since. He was God in the flesh—even the Son of God. These powers enabled Him to accomplish miracles, signs, wonders, the great atonement, and the resurrection—all of which are additional marks of His divinity.

I am bold to say to you young people tonight: Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. He was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!"

It says pretty clearly here that what He got from God, by being the Son of God in the flesh gave Him power to resurrect. Which implies He couldn't have done it without that type of body during His mortal stay. President Benson seems pretty clear about his testimony that Jesus is the literal offspring of God in the flesh. .... anyways, interesting topic, thanks.

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but still after that question is how is that power passed from God to Jesus or whomever for that reason. If the power is purely spiritual in nature, like many are trying to suggest, then that raises the question of why Jesus had to be the Only Begotten in the flesh? And if one interprets that as Gospel Principles and other authorities have written that Jesus is not only the spiritual offspring of God and in that way our brother but also is the physical offspring of God, then what is the purpose, value, significance or need for Jesus receiving a certain set of genes from God?

Try to answer these questions:

1) Why in the pre-mortal existence was Jehovah singled out as "one like unto God." Abraham 3:24

2) Why was Jehovah able to create physically?

3) Why was Jehovah able to assist in creation of the bodies of Adam and Eve? Ether 3:15-16, D&C 93:10, Isaiah 45:12-13

4) Why is Jehovah's intelligence during the pre-mortal existence greater than the intelligence of all the rest of Elohim's spirit children combined??? Abraham 3: 18-19

It obvously could not be due to his physical birth... I don't buy the idea that he was so radically different than the rest of us due to the position of spiritual birth. I believe that Jehovah was so much more advanced than everyone else because he was experienced. One must recognize that Jehovah was chosen to be the Messiah (the anointed one) way before being born as a babe in bethelem.

You can be disgusted with the idea of inheriting powers through our physical bodies but you are going to have a hard time ignoring it because it is throughout the scriptures and heavily mixed into our gospel. Next time you go through the temple, count how many times you hear "fruit of your loins" "posterity" and look at how important genealogy and lineage is as well as, in the past, who got the priesthood and who didn't even back in ancient times. You can't ignore the fact that to be like God, we needed a body. The body is not just a pretty wrapping covering our spirit, it allows to have a fullness of joy. There is a certain level of power that comes with having a fullness of joy.

I disagree that powers are inherited. The birthright goes to the one that is worthy not just because you are born first. Powers are earned. Everyone that has ever come to Earth or is destined to come here earned the privilege to do so. Every single prophet who ever held power and authority first proved their worthyness prior to receiving such blessings. Nothing is grated without first proving accountability. Those people that have been blessed with the authority of the priesthood earned that privilege during the pre-mortal existence.

One of my favorite scriptures of all time is D&C 121-122:7, in which Joseph Smith is supplicating to the Lord and while in Liberty Jail asks the question, Why must me and my people suffer so much??? Jehovah's answer is unbelievably loving and insightful, in which He states... "all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." Then He follows this statement with D&C 122: 8.

One must ask what kind of future is Joseph Smith going to have in which these horrific experiences will be for his good???

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For all you God genes doubters;

The Prophet Ezra Taft Benson (New Era, December 1980) says it pretty clearly here:

"Some six hundred years before Jesus was born, Nephi had a vision. He saw Mary and described her as “a virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.” He then saw her “carried away in the Spirit; … for the space of a time.” When she returned she was bearing a child in her arms, “even the son of the Eternal Father!” (1 Ne. 11:15, 19–21.)

Thus the testimonies of appointed witnesses leave no question as to the paternity of Jesus Christ. God was the Father of His fleshly tabernacle and Mary, a mortal woman, was His mother. He is therefore the only person born who rightfully deserves the title the Only Begotten Son of God.

When the great God of the universe condescended to be born of mortal woman, He submitted Himself to the infirmities of mortality to “suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death” (Mosiah 3:7). These infirmities He inherited from His mortal mother.

But because His Father was God, Jesus Christ had powers which no human had before or since. He was God in the flesh—even the Son of God. These powers enabled Him to accomplish miracles, signs, wonders, the great atonement, and the resurrection—all of which are additional marks of His divinity.

I am bold to say to you young people tonight: Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. He was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!"

It says pretty clearly here that what He got from God, by being the Son of God in the flesh gave Him power to resurrect. Which implies He couldn't have done it without that type of body during His mortal stay. President Benson seems pretty clear about his testimony that Jesus is the literal offspring of God in the flesh. .... anyways, interesting topic, thanks.

I absolutely agree with the above.

Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

In the above verse the Virgin Mary is described as a vessel. If one were to read this scripture and ponder it, one might come to the conclusion that the Virgin Mary was serving as a surrogate mother. Surrogate mothers provide a fertile soil for the seed that is to grow within their womb, but they do not donate any of their genetics to the seed.

I think that it is very possible that the genetic donors of the seed that became Jesus Christ came from Elohim (both father and mother).

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I think that it is very possible that the genetic donors of the seed that became Jesus Christ came from Elohim (both father and mother).

I'm not sure what you mean by "both father and mother," but Mary was the mother of the Son of God (physical body).

The mother had to be mortal. That's what made the atonement possible. That's an important reason why the fall was necessary.

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It obvously could not be due to his physical birth... I don't buy the idea that he was so radically different than the rest of us due to the position of spiritual birth. I believe that Jehovah was so much more advanced than everyone else because he was experienced. One must recognize that Jehovah was chosen to be the Messiah (the anointed one) way before being born as a babe in bethelem.

I'm not sure what you mean by experienced, but I do believe He was chosen to be the Firstborn, and wasn't necessarily THE first born spirit. He was the first born of the spirit, resurrected, and presented to the Father perfect, making Him the Firstborn spirit child of the Father.

I disagree that powers are inherited. The birthright goes to the one that is worthy not just because you are born first.

I believe that something was inherited by having an immortal Father. I don't know exactly what, but I do know that had Jesus not been worthy the birthright was meaningless, just like the examples we see in scriptures. However, even if He was worthy, He still needed immortal parentage to accomplish what He did. If not, the plan would not have required it.

I agree 100% that the birthright goes to the one who is worthy.

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Try to answer these questions:

1) Why in the pre-mortal existence was Jehovah singled out as "one like unto God." Abraham 3:24

2) Why was Jehovah able to create physically?

3) Why was Jehovah able to assist in creation of the bodies of Adam and Eve? Ether 3:15-16, D&C 93:10, Isaiah 45:12-13

4) Why is Jehovah's intelligence during the pre-mortal existence greater than the intelligence of all the rest of Elohim's spirit children combined??? Abraham 3: 18-19

One must ask what kind of future is Joseph Smith going to have in which these horrific experiences will be for his good???

I think to answer the questions 1 through 4 would include a pondering of why any of us were different in the pre-existence from another. Why would there be great and noble spirits in the pre-existence? and why would a third of the host of heaven not want to follow God's plan? We were all different in the pre-existence but we are taught it is because some were more valiant than others. I would imagine the answer to your questions 1 through 4 pertains to that response, that Jesus was the most valiant out of all of us. The bigger question, for me, is why did we differ so much as spirits? We don't know the answer to those questions. Possibly it is for the same reason our offspring here can vary, maybe there is some spiritual variability that God does not have control over that makes one spirit come out like Lucifer and the next like Michael. I guess we will find that out in the next life. I don't think, however, as I think you are trying to suggest, that Jesus lived a mortal life previously. Because, I don't think any of us can be mortal more than once. If one thinks that is the case, that Jesus can live a mortal life and then put on His Celestial being like changing a pair of clothes every day then His sacrifice of giving His life would be no big deal. That idea lessens His sacrifice.

To answer the last question .... I thought when we enter into God's kingdom we enter into His rest. We rest from the toils of this world, including the horrors. I think Joseph Smith has an existence that is now free from horrors. As the lyrics of "Come, Come ye Saints" goes; "And should we die before our journey's through,

Happy day! All is well!

We then are free from toil and sorrow, too;

With the just we shall dwell!"

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I think that it is very possible that the genetic donors of the seed that became Jesus Christ came from Elohim (both father and mother).

Sure, but I doubt that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother's "seed" or genetic code, or whatever you want to call it, differs too much. If it is possible to mix with mortal seed then I suppose it is set up in similar principles and possibly if that is the case than we could say that at least Jesus got one chromosome specifically from the Father alone, the Y chromosome. But I would imagine all the others likely don't differ a whole lot.

It could be that what Jesus got was the mortal equivalent to God's DNA (whatever that would be, since we don't know how immortal bodies are made). Or it could be the equivalent to what God the Father had when He was mortal and therefore the literal Only Begotten Son in the flesh title might still be valid. There are too many unknown variables to really discuss the 'how it happened'. The main point, of this thread, is to point out that there is something needed from that designation that allows Jesus to be our Savior and to ponder a little of what that might be.

Another important point is that the first principle of our gospel is faith in Jesus Christ. But to have faith, we need to understand who He is, not just what He stands for. We need to have faith that He really is the Only Begotten Son of the Father in the flesh.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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If one thinks that is the case, that Jesus can live a mortal life and then put on His Celestial being like changing a pair of clothes every day then His sacrifice of giving His life would be no big deal. That idea lessens His sacrifice.

I don't believe it would lessen his sacrifice. The act of dying in and of itself had very little to do with what we know as the Atonement. How many thousands of humans have died via crucifixion?

The crucifixion of Christ did have a part in the atonement but it was only a small part. It was what transpired within the Garden of Gethsemane and the spiritual trial and suffering that made the Atonement what it is. D&C 19: 15-18

To make that body "perfect" does it have to be Begotten? If the answer is 'yes' than that would imply our perfected bodies after this life will all have to be Begotten of the Father. If the answer is 'no' then what really is the value of Jesus being literally Begotten of the Father in this life?

I like the line of though that you were questioning in the original post...

Answer this. How are we begotten sons and daughters of Jesus Christ?

Edited by mikbone
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Sure, but I doubt that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother's "seed" or genetic code, or whatever you want to call it, differs too much. If it is possible to mix with mortal seed then I suppose it is set up in similar principles and possibly if that is the case than we could say that at least Jesus got one chromosome specifically from the Father alone, the Y chromosome. But I would imagine all the others likely don't differ a whole lot.

Then why can't Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother have produced the embryo that was to become Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost could then have implanted this special seed within the womb of the 'vessel' the Virgin Mary?

It could be that what Jesus got was the mortal equivalent to God's DNA (whatever that would be, since we don't know how immortal bodies are made). Or it could be the equivalent to what God the Father had when He was mortal and therefore the literal Only Begotten Son in the flesh title might still be valid. There are too many unknown variables to really discuss the 'how it happened'. The main point, of this thread, is to point out that there is something needed from that designation that allows Jesus to be our Savior and to ponder a little of what that might be.

Another important point is that the first principle of our gospel is faith in Jesus Christ. But to have faith, we need to understand who He is, not just what He stands for. We need to have faith that He really is the Only Begotten Son of the Father in the flesh.

AMEN!

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To answer the last question .... I thought when we enter into God's kingdom we enter into His rest.

We may enter into His rest...

But I am under no impression that God rests. I don't know what Elohim is doing on his day off. But from what I do know he created spiritually. He had to set up the plan of salvation. He had to watch Jehovah and support Him throughout his trial. He has to listen to and answer all of our prayers... And these are only the things that we are able to witness. I believe that he is doing much, MUCH more in the background that we don't even see.

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Then why can't Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother have produced the embryo that was to become Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost could then have implanted this special seed within the womb of the 'vessel' the Virgin Mary?

AMEN!

Yes that was the original question. What is the significance of being "the Only Begotten in the flesh"? He could have just been given a perfect body, but it wasn't that way, so why does it have to be directly and literally the Son of God in the flesh? Why isn't just being the Firstborn in spirit enough? The Firstborn and given a perfect body wouldn't have been enough? Obviously not, but why?

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We may enter into His rest...

But I am under no impression that God rests. I don't know what Elohim is doing on his day off. But from what I do know he created spiritually. He had to set up the plan of salvation. He had to watch Jehovah and support Him throughout his trial. He has to listen to and answer all of our prayers... And these are only the things that we are able to witness. I believe that he is doing much, MUCH more in the background that we don't even see.

That's not what rest from toils and sorrows means. It doesn't mean rest from all labors. It is a rest from the struggle between good and evil. I said that in response to your comment about Joseph Smith's future. Of course labors continue but not struggle or sorrow.

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I don't believe it would lessen his sacrifice. The act of dying in and of itself had very little to do with what we know as the Atonement. How many thousands of humans have died via crucifixion?

The crucifixion of Christ did have a part in the atonement but it was only a small part. It was what transpired within the Garden of Gethsemane and the spiritual trial and suffering that made the Atonement what it is. D&C 19: 15-18

We weren't just talking about the atonement though, we were talking about Christ's full mission on this Earth which is also to allow us to come forth in resurrection, immortality. We can come forth in resurrection from death because of Christ' death on the cross and His resurrection 3 days later. ... the benefit of keeping our first estate. I agree that the benefit that comes from keeping the second estate was mostly payed for in the garden of Gethsemane. He lays down His life and took it up again so that we can do the same. If He can lay down His life like changing a pair of clothes, yes, I think that lessens that part of the sacrifice. The definition of resurrection is to be reunited with the body, never to be separated from it again. I believe Jesus was separated from his mortal body on the cross for 3 days. He could not have done anything like that before, that was the first and only time.

Here is what the Ensign says about reincarnation;

" Reincarnation denies the entire purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who believe that spirits and gods can repeatedly inhabit a variety of physical forms do not take into account Christ’s mission and the purpose of the Atonement. For a person who believes in reincarnation, Christ would be but one manifestation of a temporarily embodied savior—one of many possible incarnations.

To accept this premise would be to repudiate the most fundamental teaching of the gospel—that there was a single, unique act of redemption made by the Lord Jesus Christ. By denying the ultimate importance of the Atonement and of Christ’s mercy and love, those who believe in reincarnation fail to see the Savior in his rightful position as King of Kings and Lord of Lords—the only name given whereby we can be saved. (See D&C 18:23.) Though reincarnation is an interesting theory that may have a few similarities with the gospel, it denies the absolute centrality of the Atonement and must be rejected as false."

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I like the line of though that you were questioning in the original post...

Answer this. How are we begotten sons and daughters of Jesus Christ?

Presidency of the quorum of the twelve: "Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew—born of God, as the inspired word states:

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 Jn. 3:8–10).

Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood. Of such we read: “Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58; compare D&C 132:20, and contrast D&C 132:17 in same section; see also D&C 132:37). Yet though they be gods, they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship; and so we read in the paragraph following the above quotation: “And they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (D&C 76:59).

By the new birth—that of water and the Spirit—mankind may become children of Jesus Christ, being through the means by Him provided “begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). This solemn truth is further emphasized in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ given through Joseph Smith in 1833:

“And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).

For such figurative use of the term “begotten” in application to those who are born unto God, see Paul’s explanation: “For in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). "

This kind of "begotten" is figurative. The Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh is described as literal. .... where are you going with this?

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Yes that was the original question. What is the significance of being "the Only Begotten in the flesh"? He could have just been given a perfect body, but it wasn't that way, so why does it have to be directly and literally the Son of God in the flesh? Why isn't just being the Firstborn in spirit enough? The Firstborn and given a perfect body wouldn't have been enough? Obviously not, but why?

I have probably previously stated this but, I believe that scriptures indicates that Jehovah was the 'Only Begotten' prior to being born on Earth. Please see the first chapter of Moses. Heck do a search of 'Only Begotten' in any scripture search engine. It becomes obvious.

Some may say that this tittle is alluding to his future state as the Christ. But I believe that Jehovah was the only begotten LONG before He was born to the Virgin Mary. From Moses 1 you can see that Lucifer himself lays claim to the tittle. I don't know if Lucifer is flat out lying, or if he is telling another half-truth, or if he is just plain confused.

From both the King Follett Discourse and John 5:19, Joseph Smith suggests that Jehovah had the Unique position of witnessing Elohim perform an atonement whist Elohim was himself a savior.

Also do a search of 'only begotten in the flesh' you may find it curious that that term is not found within the Scriptures...

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Here is what the Ensign says about reincarnation;

" Reincarnation denies the entire purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who believe that spirits and gods can repeatedly inhabit a variety of physical forms do not take into account Christ’s mission and the purpose of the Atonement. For a person who believes in reincarnation, Christ would be but one manifestation of a temporarily embodied savior—one of many possible incarnations.

To accept this premise would be to repudiate the most fundamental teaching of the gospel—that there was a single, unique act of redemption made by the Lord Jesus Christ. By denying the ultimate importance of the Atonement and of Christ’s mercy and love, those who believe in reincarnation fail to see the Savior in his rightful position as King of Kings and Lord of Lords—the only name given whereby we can be saved. (See D&C 18:23.) Though reincarnation is an interesting theory that may have a few similarities with the gospel, it denies the absolute centrality of the Atonement and must be rejected as false."

I do reject reincarnation as a false principle wherein a spirit is repeatedly re-sent into different bodies.

On the other hand, if it was necessary for a person to be reborn into the same body, I could see the beauty of that.

Take for example the question of Nicodemus... John 3:4-9. Many scholars have commented on the absurdity of Nicks question. I on the other hand think that he was asking an incredibly insightful question. Why do you suppose that this question made it into the scriptures? You may also ask yourself why Jesus did not directly answer the question? I did.

Alma 11:45 does kinda throw a wrench into the works, but consider if it were possible for a resurrected being to separate for a purpose that was not corrupt. For example what would happen if...

1) An immortal Celestial resurrected being partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

2) The tree would have no effect on his knowledge base but it still might affect the body. Flesh and Bone --> Flesh and Blood.

3) If the immortal became mortal again, that body could indeed separate.

BTW I think that the Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden for a specific purpose...

Edited by mikbone
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Presidency of the quorum of the twelve: "Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew—born of God, as the inspired word states:

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 Jn. 3:8–10).

Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood. Of such we read: “Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58; compare D&C 132:20, and contrast D&C 132:17 in same section; see also D&C 132:37). Yet though they be gods, they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship; and so we read in the paragraph following the above quotation: “And they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (D&C 76:59).

By the new birth—that of water and the Spirit—mankind may become children of Jesus Christ, being through the means by Him provided “begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). This solemn truth is further emphasized in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ given through Joseph Smith in 1833:

“And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).

For such figurative use of the term “begotten” in application to those who are born unto God, see Paul’s explanation: “For in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). "

This kind of "begotten" is figurative. The Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh is described as literal. .... where are you going with this?

Spot on. Couldn't have stated it better myself. Thank you.

Well lets assume that you make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Congratulations!

Then lets assume that Jesus Christ starts to create spirit children and populate a pre-mortal existence with his own spirit children...

Finally, lets assume that you and only you are allowed to mingle with these spirit children of Jesus Christ...

Edited by mikbone
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Spot on. Couldn't have stated it better myself. Thank you.

Well lets assume that you make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Congratulations!

Then lets assume that Jesus Christ starts to create spirit children and populate a pre-mortal existence with his own spirit children...

Finally, lets assume that you and only you are allowed to mingle with these spirit children of Jesus Christ...

There are a couple basic mainstream LDS beliefs that don't fit with what you are suggesting. 1. Jesus is a literal spirit child of our Heavenly Father, not adopted or brought into the fold by His faith or virtue of His righteousness etc.

2. Jesus Christ body on this earth was formed in the belly of the virgin Mary for the first time ever and as such He is also a literal offspring of our Heavenly Father in the flesh (i.e. - He received His Y chromosome from God).

My purpose of the thread was to have a discussion of why God our Father needed to pass on genetic material to Jesus for His body on Earth. If one does not even believe that that happened then it is hard to have a discussion about that. If one doesn't believe that, it also goes against what I see as basic beliefs of the LDS religion. This is an important topic because to know Jesus and have faith in Him is one of our primary principles.

I am curious about why you think Jesus had a body previously? ...but maybe that is for a different thread.

About your previous response, It says pretty clearly in our gospel teachings that the definition of resurrection is to unite with the body, never to separate the spirit from the body again. If you believe Jesus lived previously as a mortal being that was saved by some other savior and he was there resurrected then He could not be born into another body. If you say it was the same body, then you would have to say that Mary (#2 of this world) had the same exact lineage all the way back to Adam as Jesus' previous 'Mary' (#1 of the hypothetical world) who had a child from that previous God to create the same exact set of genetic mutations and exchanges to lead to the set of genes Mary had and that is just way too impossible for me to comprehend or accept. ... So it would be a different body and therefore be called reincarnation. That is not an LDS belief.

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There are a couple basic mainstream LDS beliefs that don't fit with what you are suggesting. 1. Jesus is a literal spirit child of our Heavenly Father, not adopted or brought into the fold by His faith or virtue of His righteousness etc.

2. Jesus Christ body on this earth was formed in the belly of the virgin Mary for the first time ever and as such He is also a literal offspring of our Heavenly Father in the flesh (i.e. - He received His Y chromosome from God).

When you say he was a literal spirit child of our Heavenly Father... You may be correct. But, do you know what that actually means, how it was achieved. Cuz I don't. And I don't think that anyone else on this Earth does. I am just saying that there are vast differences between Jehovah and everyone else that was in our pre-mortal existant sphere. I personally think that there was a reason that Jehovah was different. And that the reason that He is different is what made Him special. I find it totally logical that his Spiritual Birth was different that your or my spiritual birth.

I concur that Jesus Christ's Y chromosome came from Father. Actually half of his DNA came from Heavenly father. It is the other half of his DNA that I question. Many believe that the Virgin Mary donated the other half of his DNA, I do not. I will agree that the body that the savior had when he was born to the Virgin Mary was the only body that he had or ever will have.

But... take for example a person that is cremated and then his ashes are scattered into the winds, or space... All the organic matter is consumed by heat or evaporation and the bones are converted to ash. The organic matter is then recycled and enters into new life forms, etc. From Dust to Dust. So during the resurrection do we have to obtain all the original matter that was our body and then re-assemble it correctly? Or can we use any organic matter at hand and re-constitute our bodies??? Are you aware that we turn over the molecules in our bodies many times during our lifetime.

My purpose of the thread was to have a discussion of why God our Father needed to pass on genetic material to Jesus for His body on Earth. If one does not even believe that that happened then it is hard to have a discussion about that. If one doesn't believe that, it also goes against what I see as basic beliefs of the LDS religion. This is an important topic because to know Jesus and have faith in Him is one of our primary principles.

I do believe that Jesus Christ is a literal direct descent of Elohim. But then again DNA alone does not make one a Father. As is evident by our society...

I am curious about why you think Jesus had a body previously? ...but maybe that is for a different thread.

Agreed. See Ether 3.

About your previous response, It says pretty clearly in our gospel teachings that the definition of resurrection is to unite with the body, never to separate the spirit from the body again. If you believe Jesus lived previously as a mortal being that was saved by some other savior and he was there resurrected then He could not be born into another body. If you say it was the same body, then you would have to say that Mary (#2 of this world) had the same exact lineage all the way back to Adam as Jesus' previous 'Mary' (#1 of the hypothetical world) who had a child from that previous God to create the same exact set of genetic mutations and exchanges to lead to the set of genes Mary had and that is just way too impossible for me to comprehend or accept. ... So it would be a different body and therefore be called reincarnation. That is not an LDS belief.

For arguments sake...

Let us assume that Elohim was once a Savior himself. Perhaps this occurred on a planet that orbited around Kolob. Let us also assume that Jehovah was a mortal that lived on this planet and was able to witness Elohim's act of Atonement. Perhaps Jehovah lived his life according the Gospel, was resurrected into the Celestial Kingdom and was spiritually begotten as a Son of Elohim. Then Jehovah began to learn how to become a God himself. Eventually, when Jehovah proves that He is ready. Elohim offers Jehovah the opportunity to become a Savior himself and direct a group of Elohim's Spirit Children (Us). When it comes time for the Condescension. We look at Nicodemous' question in John 3:4 and answer the query. Jehovah's Celestial adult body must be de-aged and become an embryo. Then the embryo must be converted from an immortal state to a mortal state. Then the Holy Ghost places this embryo into the Virgin Mary.

I'm sure that there are many other ways that it could be performed. But that seems like a simple solution.

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Some may say that this tittle is alluding to his future state as the Christ. But I believe that Jehovah was the only begotten LONG before He was born to the Virgin Mary. From Moses 1 you can see that Lucifer himself lays claim to the tittle. I don't know if Lucifer is flat out lying, or if he is telling another half-truth, or if he is just plain confused.

Jesus was chosen to be the Firstborn when the Father said "I choose the first."

This is what Lucifer was after, but with his own adaptation of Father's plan, whereby he thought he could save all God's children, or if he didn't believe it he presented and proposed it for a plan as a lie. I think that he actually did believe his plan could save all Father's children.

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When you say he was a literal spirit child of our Heavenly Father... You may be correct. But, do you know what that actually means, how it was achieved. Cuz I don't. And I don't think that anyone else on this Earth does. I am just saying that there are vast differences between Jehovah and everyone else that was in our pre-mortal existant sphere. I personally think that there was a reason that Jehovah was different. And that the reason that He is different is what made Him special. I find it totally logical that his Spiritual Birth was different that your or my spiritual birth.

I concur that Jesus Christ's Y chromosome came from Father. Actually half of his DNA came from Heavenly father. It is the other half of his DNA that I question. Many believe that the Virgin Mary donated the other half of his DNA, I do not. I will agree that the body that the savior had when he was born to the Virgin Mary was the only body that he had or ever will have.

But... take for example a person that is cremated and then his ashes are scattered into the winds, or space... All the organic matter is consumed by heat or evaporation and the bones are converted to ash. The organic matter is then recycled and enters into new life forms, etc. From Dust to Dust. So during the resurrection do we have to obtain all the original matter that was our body and then re-assemble it correctly? Or can we use any organic matter at hand and re-constitute our bodies??? Are you aware that we turn over the molecules in our bodies many times during our lifetime.

I do believe that Jesus Christ is a literal direct descent of Elohim. But then again DNA alone does not make one a Father. As is evident by our society...

Agreed. See Ether 3.

For arguments sake...

Let us assume that Elohim was once a Savior himself. Perhaps this occurred on a planet that orbited around Kolob. Let us also assume that Jehovah was a mortal that lived on this planet and was able to witness Elohim's act of Atonement. Perhaps Jehovah lived his life according the Gospel, was resurrected into the Celestial Kingdom and was spiritually begotten as a Son of Elohim. Then Jehovah began to learn how to become a God himself. Eventually, when Jehovah proves that He is ready. Elohim offers Jehovah the opportunity to become a Savior himself and direct a group of Elohim's Spirit Children (Us). When it comes time for the Condescension. We look at Nicodemous' question in John 3:4 and answer the query. Jehovah's Celestial adult body must be de-aged and become an embryo. Then the embryo must be converted from an immortal state to a mortal state. Then the Holy Ghost places this embryo into the Virgin Mary.

I'm sure that there are many other ways that it could be performed. But that seems like a simple solution.

Thanks for your responses, I find this topic very interesting and I appreciate your point of view.

I think it would be a testimony altering experience for most members of the church to be told that they are really not literal offspring of God in spirit or that Jesus spiritual birth was different from ours. It seems that one of the central themes of our gospel is the family unit. Does the Eternal family describe only who follows who, like you would describe a platoon of soldiers? Or does it imply who gave birth to whom?

As far as John 3:4, most would say it like President Faust says it here; "Our first birth takes place when we are born into mortality. Our second birth begins when we are baptized by water by one holding the priesthood of God and is completed when we are confirmed, and “then cometh a remission of [our] sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.”

... and in that same chapter, after explaining that Jesus went to a place with a lot of water and started baptizing with His disciples. Jesus' second birth was when He was baptized, you are saying He had more birth's than that? ... in addition, Jesus was answering a question regarding the gospel of salvation for us, for men. That question did not pertain really to Jesus. He is given as an example. "Except a man be born again ...." describes the method we have to return to our Heavenly Father, to have redemption. Jesus did not need redemption.

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