Significance of "Only Begotten"

[Seminarysnoozer]

Jesus was chosen to be the Firstborn when the Father said "I choose the first."

This is what Lucifer was after, but with his own adaptation of Father's plan, whereby he thought he could save all God's children, or if he didn't believe it he presented and proposed it for a plan as a lie. I think that he actually did believe his plan could save all Father's children.

... not 'save' but exalt, right? In the pre-existence we didn't need saving.

[mikbone]

I think it would be a testimony altering experience for most members of the church to be told that they are really not literal offspring of God in spirit or that Jesus spiritual birth was different from ours. It seems that one of the central themes of our gospel is the family unit. Does the Eternal family describe only who follows who, like you would describe a platoon of soldiers? Or does it imply who gave birth to whom?

I do think that we (everyone excluding Jehovah) are indeed spirit children of Elohim. I am not sure who sired Jehovah's spirit but I assume that it was Heavenly Grandfather (Elohim's Savior). Jehovah is indeed a spiritual child of Elohim though because He was spiritually begotten of Elohim as previously explained. Thus Jehovah's spirit pre-dates our spirits by a significant degree, He is by far the eldest.

Family is an interesting concept. The eternal family is an order of magnitude greater than our earthly family. Do you believe that we have a Heavenly Grandfather?

Just to make things a bit more confusing... Let us once again assume that Jehovah had a body of flesh and bone during our pre-existent sphere. If he did. He (Jehovah) could have sired Adam and Eve in the Garden or Eden. Ether 3:15, Moses 2: 26-27

As far as John 3:4, most would say it like President Faust says it here; "Our first birth takes place when we are born into mortality. Our second birth begins when we are baptized by water by one holding the priesthood of God and is completed when we are confirmed, and “then cometh a remission of [our] sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.”

... and in that same chapter, after explaining that Jesus went to a place with a lot of water and started baptizing with His disciples. Jesus' second birth was when He was baptized, you are saying He had more birth's than that? ... in addition, Jesus was answering a question regarding the gospel of salvation for us, for men. That question did not pertain really to Jesus. He is given as an example. "Except a man be born again ...." describes the method we have to return to our Heavenly Father, to have redemption. Jesus did not need redemption.

Yeah... I think that baptism has many symbolic meanings. But if you have been to the temple ceremony you know that earthly ordinances are preparatory for something that will happen in the future if we are worthy. I believe that the baptism ordinance is the same.

Edited September 7, 2010 by mikbone

[Justice]

... not 'save' but exalt, right? In the pre-existence we didn't need saving.

Right. I guess in my mind I had moved forward to the point after they partook of the forbidden fruit. I believe even Lucifer knew and understood that we had to go through that much of the plan. Gaining the knowledge of good and evil was a required part of the plan, and I believe understood by all.

Although, I'm not sure any of us could have understood exactly what that meant. Understanding that it was necessary and exactly how it was to happen are different things. I guess that's my point in other threads. Some saw how his plan could "save" us from death, but didn't really have a grasp on what it meant, or what it meant to be exalted, other than it meant to be like Father and Mother. But, how to get there, and what was required, was beyond our ability to understand. Which, of course, is why many of us had to be born here in mortality.

I believe this is partly why the 1/3 were deceived. It was a lack of faith or trust in Father and His presented plan.

[Justice]

And by the way, I'm not one who subscribes to the theory that all of us who are born into mortality were the most noble and great spirits in the pre-mortal existence. Obviously, it's true that some were (even many), but I believe among the most noble and great ones were also those who only needed to come to earth and gain a body. Now, many of the noble and great ones did come to earth to help us make and keep required covenants. But, those who only needed a body had already made and kept important covenants, and did not need to be tested with them here (we know who they are). The Book of Mormon represents all three groups of people: the Lamanites, the Nephites, and the Anti-Nephi-Lehi's (who made and kept certain covenants which excluded them from the war). You can see the symbolism of using all three groups in Alma 43 and 44. The battle that took place in those chapters is symbolic or representative of the war that took place in heaven.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Justice

[Traveler]

Right. I guess in my mind I had moved forward to the point after they partook of the forbidden fruit. I believe even Lucifer knew and understood that we had to go through that much of the plan. Gaining the knowledge of good and evil was a required part of the plan, and I believe understood by all.

Although, I'm not sure any of us could have understood exactly what that meant. Understanding that it was necessary and exactly how it was to happen are different things. I guess that's my point in other threads. Some saw how his plan could "save" us from death, but didn't really have a grasp on what it meant, or what it meant to be exalted, other than it meant to be like Father and Mother. But, how to get there, and what was required, was beyond our ability to understand. Which, of course, is why many of us had to be born here in mortality.

I believe this is partly why the 1/3 were deceived. It was a lack of faith or trust in Father and His presented plan.

I do not want this response to come across as though I disagree but there are some points I would clarify - that is to clarify according to my opinion.

1. I do not think anyone was mislead or did not understand. I believe choices were made in full knowledge and perfect light. Pride and selfish interests drove many to rebel believing they deserved more than others and should not have to rely completely on someone else (the Messiah).

2. The scriptures do not say one third followed Satan - they say a third part. I believe this means that heaven was divided into 3 parts (not necessarily equal parts) and one of those parts followed Satan. One part was noble and great and destined by ordained to receive the priesthood. (See Alma chapter 13)

3. We have many types and shadows of three part divisions. Besides what we are told of the pre-existence we have the sons of Noah which became the nations of the world (the covenant, the gentile, and the infidel – meaning infidelity towards the covenant) – we also have the resurrection; Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I do think that we (everyone excluding Jehovah) are indeed spirit children of Elohim. I am not sure who sired Jehovah's spirit but I assume that it was Heavenly Grandfather (Elohim's Savior). Jehovah is indeed a spiritual child of Elohim though because He was spiritually begotten of Elohim as previously explained. Thus Jehovah's spirit pre-dates our spirits by a significant degree, He is by far the eldest.

Family is an interesting concept. The eternal family is an order of magnitude greater than our earthly family. Do you believe that we have a Heavenly Grandfather?

Just to make things a bit more confusing... Let us once again assume that Jehovah had a body of flesh and bone during our pre-existent sphere. If he did. He (Jehovah) could have sired Adam and Eve in the Garden or Eden. Ether 3:15, Moses 2: 26-27

Yeah... I think that baptism has many symbolic meanings. But if you have been to the temple ceremony you know that earthly ordinances are preparatory for something that will happen in the future if we are worthy. I believe that the baptism ordinance is the same.

These are very interesting thoughts. 2 questions; Is this theory your own or did you develop this based on teachings from authorities in the church? (In other words, can I read about it somewhere else?)

And secondly, If this is a true theory than Jesus was married and sealed through this whole experience here, where was His wife during this whole thing? If that type of experience is needed to become Godlike, why isn't she down here too doing the same thing?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just to make things a bit more confusing... Let us once again assume that Jehovah had a body of flesh and bone during our pre-existent sphere. If he did. He (Jehovah) could have sired Adam and Eve in the Garden or Eden. Ether 3:15, Moses 2: 26-27

One problem I see with that possibility is that the whole idea of justice and mercy is based on the fact that God gave us life, we are fallen and we need a third party to redeem us from the fall. If Jesus gave us life, He is paying off Himself to satisfy justice?

[mikbone]

These are very interesting thoughts. 2 questions; Is this theory your own or did you develop this based on teachings from authorities in the church? (In other words, can I read about it somewhere else?)

Thanks, I think.

I'm too dumb to come up with original information. Some of the essential conculsions occurred while serving a mission in 1988. I had been doing some study. And just like yourself I had some questions about the uniqueness of Jehovah. There were many sources that led me to these conclusions but the main ones are:

a) Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse

b) Lorenzo Snow's Couplet - "As man is God once was, as God is man may be."

c) Cleon Skousen's Appendix A - "Why Was The Attonement Necessary" found within his book The First 2,000 Years. With specific focus on the concept of HONOR.

d) The scriptures, I had been focusing on The Pearl of Great Price and also reading Ether in the Book of Mormon. When the breakthru occurred, I was intensly studying Ether 3.

e) Temple Ceremony

f) Prayer

You see, my original question was. How can I be like God? And when was God ever like me? Cuz Jesus Christ was never like I am now. And I know that God will never give anyone power and authority until they have proved themselves worthy.

Over the years I have found out that these concepts are not unique to myself. But for quite some time I did think that my testimory was special. I can tell you that my appreciation for Jesus Christ and Elohim greatly multiplied as I began to continually study these concepts.

In the 19th century some of the ideas were taught privately and openly by such luminaries as Heber C. Kimball, Brigham Young, Eliza R. Snow and many others.

In 2005 Kaimi Wergner made this post Thoughts on the Nature of Christ on the blog, Times and Seasons.

And the guys over at the blog New Cool Thang have spent quite a few discussions on the topic which they have coined MMP - Multiple Mortal Probations. Link - New Cool Thang

Essentially, I believe that these concepts are not taught because they greatly infer that If you want to become like God. You have to do EXACTLY what they did. Atonement and all. This is a hard pill to swallow. And think of what the anti-mormons would do if they got wind of this information...

And secondly, If this is a true theory than Jesus was married and sealed through this whole experience here, where was His wife during this whole thing? If that type of experience is needed to become Godlike, why isn't she down here too doing the same thing?

No, Jehovah was sealed to a woman that was also passing through Her mortal probation on the planet that orbited Kolob wherein Elohim served as a savior. You see, Jehovah and His Wife (or Plural Wives) have a long and great history together. They are equally yoked.

Why don't we have any record of Her? I don't know.

Why don't we have any record of Heavenly Mother? I don't know.

Are women important? Yes.

Do females have to go through something like the Atonement? I don't know.

But this I do assume. Godhood is no joyride. It is a undertaking that cannot be trifled with. It has unimmaginable requirements and sacrifices. But I also believe that the rewards are commensurate.

Whose your Daddy? I know who my Daddy is. He is awesome. And I want to be just like He is.

Edited September 7, 2010 by mikbone

[mikbone]

One problem I see with that possibility is that the whole idea of justice and mercy is based on the fact that God gave us life, we are fallen and we need a third party to redeem us from the fall. If Jesus gave us life, He is paying off Himself to satisfy justice?

It would be one heck of a way to clense ones self. D&C 19: 15-19

Do you think that anyone excepting Jesus Christ (and those that die before age 8, or whom are mentally retareded) depart from this life completely repented of all their sins?

Edited September 7, 2010 by mikbone

[Faded]

I'm willing to admit that I just don't know the answer to the underlying question. I don't know why the Messiah had to be God's Only Begotten Son and I don't know why it was necessary for a mortal man to be the one who took the sins of the world upon them. I don't know what steps Jehovah went through to become God before he was born on the earth.

What we know we have from the scriptures and modern day revelation. He was an infinite sacrifice, and therefore his Atonement was sufficient for the sins of all humankind. He was born to Mary who was still a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Why? To fulfill ancient prophecy that said it would happen that way. Was it absolutely essential that Jesus be half mortal and half immortal? All the scriptures certain seem to agree that it was necessary. Modern prophets and apostles agree that it was was necessary.

It is the underlying question, "Why?" that I don't think we have the answer to. Clearly, Jesus being the begotten earthly son of the Father was a fulfillment of prophecy. It also was important because as the heir to his Father, his claim to authority is undeniable. But the "Why was it required?" question doesn't have an answer that I'm aware of. It's one of those things we take on faith and wait till the next life to comprehend fully. All we know for right now is that this is how it's done.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It would be one heck of a way to clense ones self. D&C 19: 15-19

Do you think that anyone excepting Jesus Christ (and those that die before age 8, or whom are mentally retareded) depart from this life completely repented of all their sins?

I think you mean "accepting" not "excepting" but I am not sure ...

I suppose this question is the same as asking if I think anyone will go directly to paradise and not have to spend time in spirit prison ... yes I think there are people that will go directly to paradise from this world. Do they have a full understanding, no. Is the process over, no, because they haven't been judged or resurrected and assigned to their kingdom.

If not, what about those that are transformed in a twinkling of an eye, they will have to be repenting after they are exalted? I don't think so.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is the underlying question, "Why?" that I don't think we have the answer to. Clearly, Jesus being the begotten earthly son of the Father was a fulfillment of prophecy. It also was important because as the heir to his Father, his claim to authority is undeniable. But the "Why was it required?" question doesn't have an answer that I'm aware of. It's one of those things we take on faith and wait till the next life to comprehend fully. All we know for right now is that this is how it's done.

Thanks for your response. Yes I realize it will have to remain one of these things that we simply ponder and have to maintain faith about it.

I think your claim relating to why He had to be physically Begotten of the Father, is important because "as heir to his Father, His claim to authority is undeniable" is a weighted statement that has a lot of implications and should be looked at carefully. Because what is implied is that the birthright is passed on, at least in part, physically. That is exactly what I am wondering and pondering over the significance of being the Only Begotten Son in the flesh. As most of us believe we are spiritual children of God and therefore heirs to all He has anyways, you are saying there is something added or above even that claimed birthright to being His offspring physically. There is mixed throughout the scriptures and the gospel, the need to have posterity, even in this life and not just be an "adopted" Son or Daughter.

Possibly, this will all be satisfied by those that make it to the Celestial Kingdom will receive bodies that are His physical genetics whereas the other kingdoms receive a body produced by some other genetics. Maybe to have celestial powers requires a certain physical make up. We already believe that a body is necessary to be like God and we already believe that a certain type of body is needed to be like God, a resurrected and non-corrupted body. Possibly "Mansions" in heaven more represent the similarity of our spiritual housing, our body, than it does a house. And possibly taking in the sacrament, the flesh and blood of our savior has a greater meaning when we think of taking the physical element, not just the spiritual significance. Possibly the shedding of blood represents the removal of the carnal component of his genetic make up and our carnal components. ... just some additional fuel for the fire.

thanks again.

[mikbone]

I think you mean "accepting" not "excepting" but I am not sure ...

I suppose this question is the same as asking if I think anyone will go directly to paradise and not have to spend time in spirit prison ... yes I think there are people that will go directly to paradise from this world. Do they have a full understanding, no. Is the process over, no, because they haven't been judged or resurrected and assigned to their kingdom.

If not, what about those that are transformed in a twinkling of an eye, they will have to be repenting after they are exalted? I don't think so.

I ment except. All have sined except Jesus Christ.

Repentence requires that we:

Recognize Our Sins

Feel Sorrow for Our Sins

Forsake Our Sins

Confess Our Sins

Make Restitution

Forgive Others

Keep the Commandments of God

I know that I am not completely repentent. I am sure that there are many, many sins that I did years ago that I have not recognized. It is nigh impossible to make restitution for the many mistakes I have made. I have no idea how many people I have offended over the years. And those are just the active sins. How many sins of omission have I made. And finally, it you throw in the fact that we can sin in our hearts or mind. The list of sins becomes mind-boggling.

I believe that If a person does his/her best to follow the comandments and the Light of Christ, that they will be able to enter into paradise. Does this mean that they are free of sin? Hardly.

[spamlds]

That sounds like you are explaining how Jesus doesn't fall into any 'original sin' category. Is that what you are saying?

Your use of the term "original sin" is probably the source of some of your confusion. "Original sin" is not a biblical concept. The Bible repeatedly states that children will not be held accountable for the sins of the fathers.

Deut. 24: 16

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kgs. 14: 6

6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Chr. 25: 4

4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

The Church study guide "True to the Faith" says about the topic of original sin:

Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, all people live in a fallen condition, separated from God and subject to physical death. However, we are not condemned by what many call the "original sin." In other words, we are not accountable for Adam's transgression in the Garden of Eden. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Articles of Faith 1:2).

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote this about original sin:

This is the false doctrine that the sin of Adam passes upon all men and that, therefore, all men—infants included—must be baptized to be saved. It is, however, a fundamental principle of true religion “that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” (A of F 1:2.) (See LDS.org - Liahona Article - Salvation of Little Children)

Another good reference about Christ being the "Only Begotten" can be found here:

Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the ‘Son of the Highest.’ In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman.” (LDS.org - Ensign Article - “The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Fleeâ€)

There is a lot more to be found at the gospel library section of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has a great search tool of authentic doctrinal resources.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Your use of the term "original sin" is probably the source of some of your confusion. "Original sin" is not a biblical concept. The Bible repeatedly states that children will not be held accountable for the sins of the fathers.

Deut. 24: 16

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kgs. 14: 6

6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Chr. 25: 4

4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

The Church study guide "True to the Faith" says about the topic of original sin:

Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, all people live in a fallen condition, separated from God and subject to physical death. However, we are not condemned by what many call the "original sin." In other words, we are not accountable for Adam's transgression in the Garden of Eden. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Articles of Faith 1:2).

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote this about original sin:

This is the false doctrine that the sin of Adam passes upon all men and that, therefore, all men—infants included—must be baptized to be saved. It is, however, a fundamental principle of true religion “that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” (A of F 1:2.) (See LDS.org - Liahona Article - Salvation of Little Children)

Another good reference about Christ being the "Only Begotten" can be found here:

Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the ‘Son of the Highest.’ In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman.” (LDS.org - Ensign Article - “The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Fleeâ€)

There is a lot more to be found at the gospel library section of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has a great search tool of authentic doctrinal resources.

I don't espouse that idea. It was part of a question for Traveler that you took out of context. That is why I had it in quotes.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I ment except. All have sined except Jesus Christ.

Repentence requires that we:

Recognize Our Sins

Feel Sorrow for Our Sins

Forsake Our Sins

Confess Our Sins

Make Restitution

Forgive Others

Keep the Commandments of God

I know that I am not completely repentent. I am sure that there are many, many sins that I did years ago that I have not recognized. It is nigh impossible to make restitution for the many mistakes I have made. I have no idea how many people I have offended over the years. And those are just the active sins. How many sins of omission have I made. And finally, it you throw in the fact that we can sin in our hearts or mind. The list of sins becomes mind-boggling.

I believe that If a person does his/her best to follow the comandments and the Light of Christ, that they will be able to enter into paradise. Does this mean that they are free of sin? Hardly.

Does that include Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery who were told by Jehovah that there sins were forgiven? D&C 110:5 "Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice." You think Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery remembered everything they did in their lives to that point. Our Savior will clean us from our sins based on the desires of our heart and through the above guidelines you provided as best we can. But He is not a taskmaster, His burden for us is light, He is not as harsh as you are making Him out to be. ... in my opinion.

Common LDS doctrine suggests that if we had the opportunity to repent here and we didn't then we won't have the opportunity there. The spirit world repentance is for those that didn't have an opportunity for many possible reasons. If we know the fullness of the gospel, the time for repentance is now, this is our probationary period.

Even for those that had a lifetime of sin that they weren't aware of, in the spirit world we will have all before us, it won't be as "mind-boggling." If that individuals heart is in the right place, seeing all that was done in this world, the change would be relatively quick.

I think most would say that at Judgment day, when we are assigned our kingdom of glory, the price is paid in full. Or are you saying that we will continue to "pay back" Jesus for our sins while in a Kingdom of glory?

[mikbone]

Does that include Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery who were told by Jehovah that there sins were forgiven? D&C 110:5 "Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice." You think Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery remembered everything they did in their lives to that point. Our Savior will clean us from our sins based on the desires of our heart and through the above guidelines you provided as best we can. But He is not a taskmaster, His burden for us is light, He is not as harsh as you are making Him out to be. ... in my opinion.

Possibly those whom have had their calling and election made sure are in a special category. But Joseph Smith was told multiple times that his sins were forgiven him...

D&C 90:1

D&C 29:3 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that at this time your sins are forgiven you, therefore ye receive these things; but remember to sin no more, lest perils shall come upon you.

I'm not sure if the Lord forgives future sins...

I think most would say that at Judgment day, when we are assigned our kingdom of glory, the price is paid in full. Or are you saying that we will continue to "pay back" Jesus for our sins while in a Kingdom of glory?

By now you probably have realized that I don't fit well into the (most people would say) category. Anyway, can mercy rob justice?

We won't be paying back Jesus. We will have to perfect ourselves though. Being forgiven for your sins and being perfect are 2 vastly different things.

After death we continue to learn. Exaltation means godhood, creatorship. 'As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.' (Eliza R. Snow Smith, Biography of Lorenzo Snow, Salt Lake City: Deseret News Co., 1884, 46.) This is in the future. It is obvious that before one can take of the materials in existence and develop them into a world like our own, he must be master of geology, zoology, physiology, psychology, and all the others. It is obvious, also, that no soul can in his short mortal life acquire all this knowledge and master all these sciences, but he can make a beginning and with the foundation of spiritual life and controls and mastery, and with the authorities and powers received through the gospel of Christ, he is in a position to begin this almost limitless study of the secular' (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball, [1982], 53).

There is much work, study, and perfecting that we must do to our souls even after we enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

All I am saying is that the price is paid in full, only when the price is paid in full. There are no shortcuts.

As you are well aware, Lucifer is the author of shortcuts. They don't work.

[Justice]

2. The scriptures do not say one third followed Satan - they say a third part. I believe this means that heaven was divided into 3 parts (not necessarily equal parts) and one of those parts followed Satan. One part was noble and great and destined by ordained to receive the priesthood. (See Alma chapter 13)

I agree with the 1/3 meaning there were 3 divisions. I use 1/3 in that sense, not necessarily as a fraction.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We won't be paying back Jesus. We will have to perfect ourselves though. Being forgiven for your sins and being perfect are 2 vastly different things.

Exactly, but that is why I don't know if "sins" are the right description for our shortcomings after Judgment day.

How does this relate to "the Only Begotten Son in the flesh" theme of this thread?

[Seminarysnoozer]

By now you probably have realized that I don't fit well into the (most people would say) category. Anyway, can mercy rob justice?

Now you have me pulling away from the theme of the thread, maybe this is a topic for another thread .... but, one comment here ... If mercy can't "rob" justice then I think that would suggest that Jesus only suffered in Gethsemane for those that are repentant. If full justice has to be served by those who do not repent by their wailing and gnashing in spirit prison then I guess Jesus didn't have to suffer for those sins, right? In other words, Jesus only suffered for those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom, is that what you are suggesting? Otherwise, by what you are suggesting is "paid in full" the souls that end up in the other Kingdoms will remain in debt forever because they will have no way of "paying off" those debts. The only other way around that would be if you think there is repentance in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms. ... I thought it was all settled by then. I thought those Kingdoms were Kingdoms of glory.

[mikbone]

Now you have me pulling away from the theme of the thread, maybe this is a topic for another thread .... but, one comment here ... If mercy can't "rob" justice then I think that would suggest that Jesus only suffered in Gethsemane for those that are repentant. If full justice has to be served by those who do not repent by their wailing and gnashing in spirit prison then I guess Jesus didn't have to suffer for those sins, right? In other words, Jesus only suffered for those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom, is that what you are suggesting? Otherwise, by what you are suggesting is "paid in full" the souls that end up in the other Kingdoms will remain in debt forever because they will have no way of "paying off" those debts. The only other way around that would be if you think there is repentance in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms. ... I thought it was all settled by then. I thought those Kingdoms were Kingdoms of glory.

Yeah, I agree. You have totally hijacked this thread. Two points.

Christ's Atonement was Eternal. Meaning you could take all the pain and suffering that everyone that has ever lived or will live on this Earth and add it all up together. Still won't approach what Christ went through. Christ performed the Atonement for everyone who is willing to take advantage of it.

Anyone can repent anywhere. Its a process. I just believe that some won't want to go through the process. And some sins there is no vehicle for repentence like Murder etc...

Anyway many (including General Authorities) have suggested that it may be possible to progress through kingdoms in the afterlife. Personally, Im not sure. So im shooting for the Celestial Kingdom...

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yeah, I agree. You have totally hijacked this thread. Two points.

Christ's Atonement was Eternal. Meaning you could take all the pain and suffering that everyone that has ever lived or will live on this Earth and add it all up together. Still won't approach what Christ went through. Christ performed the Atonement for everyone who is willing to take advantage of it.

Anyone can repent anywhere. Its a process. I just believe that some won't want to go through the process. And some sins there is no vehicle for repentence like Murder etc...

Anyway many (including General Authorities) have suggested that it may be possible to progress through kingdoms in the afterlife. Personally, Im not sure. So im shooting for the Celestial Kingdom...

I guess I've always likened it to getting into a good college, once you are in you are in, you don't have to keep reapplying every year. At the same time, if you did well in preparing for college it will carry with you and it will be to your advantage. And when the qualifying process is over, it is over.

If I had a 3.8 gpa and I got into school X, there is no way of me going back to make that gpa a 4.0. And there would be no reason to, I'm in. But if it takes a 4.0 to go to school X, then I am in trouble because the application process is over and I was taken by another school. By going to another school, my chance to apply for school X is over. Now is the time to repent, this is our probationary, application process time. And yet in that example, there will still be additional growth and learning, we just won't be able to change "schools" so to speak.

So, going back to Jesus, how does this relate to Jesus' condition here on Earth?

[mikbone]

So, going back to Jesus, how does this relate to Jesus' condition here on Earth?

Its complicated. I wrote a book on the subject years ago just to keep things straight in my mind.

Have you read the King Follett Discourse in light of our recent conversations? Cuz Joseph Smith was all over this in that General Conference Talk.

Why did Jesus come to Earth??

1) Because He treads in the footsteps of His Father. Revelations 3:21

2) Because Elohim created us as spirit children and needed a Savior to make the plan of salvation work. And Jehovah volunteered to serve in the office of Messiah.

3) Jehovah desired to perfect himself. Contrast pre-atonement Matthew 5:48 with post-atonement 3 Nephi 12:48

4) Honor, Priesthood, Power, Authority

5) Because He loves us. And He wants to give us the same opportunities that he had. Moses 1:39

[Seminarysnoozer]

Its complicated. I wrote a book on the subject years ago just to keep things straight in my mind.

Have you read the King Follett Discourse in light of our recent conversations? Cuz Joseph Smith was all over this in that General Conference Talk.

Why did Jesus come to Earth??

1) Because He treads in the footsteps of His Father. Revelations 3:21

2) Because Elohim created us as spirit children and needed a Savior to make the plan of salvation work. And Jehovah volunteered to serve in the office of Messiah.

3) Jehovah desired to perfect himself. Contrast pre-atonement Matthew 5:48 with post-atonement 3 Nephi 12:48

4) Honor, Priesthood, Power, Authority

5) Because He loves us. And He wants to give us the same opportunities that he had. Moses 1:39

You have some interesting takes on the subject and I appreciate your responses. Yes, I have read the King Follett Discourse several times. I'll read it again with this topic in mind. I am aware of the reasons Jesus came to Earth as listed with the exception of #3 maybe, that is still a new concept to me. We are mostly told that Jesus is a perfect man and that the sacrifice required a perfect man. So, Him doing it to perfect himself is a new concept that I will have to ponder some more. We also hear Him say that He came to do the Father's work and not for Himself. And of course, His life on Earth takes a continuous change as it says He grew in stature in God's and man's eyes. I am sure that His glory changed after the atonement but I am not sure if I would call that perfecting Himself.

The more specific question was why He required a physical body that is described as the Only Begotten in the flesh for all of those above reasons you listed. As opposed to a body obtained the same way the rest of us have.

The most prevalent response has been because He needed to be outside the effects of the fall. My only hesitation about that is that He is half from Mary, presumably, and should from that be under the conditions of the fall. He is in this world which is in a fallen state and He was mortal. So, I am not sure if that is the whole reason.

I have raised the possibility that certain DNA constructs carry powers or maybe allow for the spirit to be more in control than the veil inducing, corrupted forms that most of us have. And that is the reason He needed part God DNA to perform his duties, not just His spiritual prowess. Or it simply allows His spiritual prowess to come through in this fallen world.

Then you have presented, or I should say, "hinted at" because you haven't really outright said it, that Jesus has lived in a mortal condition previously and He is just reuniting in His body but in infant form to further his perfecting process to become more like our Heavenly Father. This is a little harder for me to swallow, but I appreciate you discussing it. Maybe it is because as a woman, I am not sure how I would fit into such a plan. Also for the many other things we have discussed back and forth about this idea. Again, I think it would be hard for most LDS to say that the condition of resurrection means that the spirit, "never to be separated from the body again" could actually separate from its body and come back to it in a different condition or in a mortal state and then back into immortality. I realize you don't have some mainstream ideas, but that is a big leap from basic LDS doctrine. Thanks.

[mikbone]

We also hear Him say that He came to do the Father's work and not for Himself.

Moses 4:2 Agreed.

Yet on some occasions He (JEHOVAH/Jesus Christ) does claim us for himself.

D&C 104:14 I, the Lord, stretched out the heavens, and built the earth, my very handiwork; and all things therein are mine. 15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.

1 Nephi 20: 10 For, behold, I have refined thee, I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. 11 For mine own sake, yea, for mine own sake will I do this, for I will not suffer my name to be polluted, and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob, and Israel my called, for I am he; I am the first, and I am also the last.

The Son is glorified and obtains honor, but because the Son is following in the path of the Father, the Glory is multiplied. Thus the Son is Glorified as well as the Father. The Son is not just a vector through which honor and glory are passed through to the Father. Idiot Satan (Moses 4:1) thought that he would rob Glory from the Father. It dosent work that way...

Do we Honor and Glorify the the Son?

Divine Savior and Redeemer

None so great has ever walked the earth. None other has made a comparable sacrifice or granted a comparable blessing. He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I declare His divinity without equivocation or compromise. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me. Gordon B. Hinckley, “In These Three I Believe,” Ensign, Jul 2006, 2–8

I do.

The more specific question was why He required a physical body that is described as the Only Begotten in the flesh for all of those above reasons you listed. As opposed to a body obtained the same way the rest of us have.

The most prevalent response has been because He needed to be outside the effects of the fall. My only hesitation about that is that He is half from Mary, presumably, and should from that be under the conditions of the fall. He is in this world which is in a fallen state and He was mortal. So, I am not sure if that is the whole reason.

I have raised the possibility that certain DNA constructs carry powers or maybe allow for the spirit to be more in control than the veil inducing, corrupted forms that most of us have. And that is the reason He needed part God DNA to perform his duties, not just His spiritual prowess. Or it simply allows His spiritual prowess to come through in this fallen world.

I dismiss all of the above concepts. They don't work for me. In my mind, Jesus Christ's body was 100% mortal. It was not special. But his spirit, knowledge, and experience, were Godly. He was able to resist sin because although he was tempted, he knew the consequences of sin and simply chose not to sin. He was able to teach with incredible insight because he was insightful. He was able to Atone for us because he loved us so dearly. He was able to self-resurrect becuase he knew how to resurrect himself. I believe that the tittle 'Only Begotten' has nothing to do with the Virgin Mary whatsoever. It denotes something vastly more important.

Then you have presented, or I should say, "hinted at" because you haven't really outright said it, that Jesus has lived in a mortal condition previously and He is just reuniting in His body but in infant form to further his perfecting process to become more like our Heavenly Father. This is a little harder for me to swallow, but I appreciate you discussing it. Maybe it is because as a woman, I am not sure how I would fit into such a plan. Also for the many other things we have discussed back and forth about this idea. Again, I think it would be hard for most LDS to say that the condition of resurrection means that the spirit, "never to be separated from the body again" could actually separate from its body and come back to it in a different condition or in a mortal state and then back into immortality. I realize you don't have some mainstream ideas, but that is a big leap from basic LDS doctrine. Thanks.

Yeah, if you want to go into specifics on the above topic we should probably take it to a personal message format.

Edited September 9, 2010 by mikbone