The little things...

[rameumptom]

A recent thread discussed the issue of why we need shave, and not wear beards. I'm not wanting to re-discuss that issue. Rather this thread is regarding the little things that the prophet expects us to do.

What are our reasonings for doing/not doing the little things expected of us?

Are we like Naaman the leper, who almost was not healed because his pride caused him to be angry over the command to wash 7 times in the Jordan River (are not the rivers of Assyria not bigger and better than this mud hole?). Yet, he did humble himself, and obeyed, and received the blessing.

How many of us think we are ready and willing to walk back to Missouri or perform some great task for God, yet are not willing to do the little things because we feel they are below us?

I think on Zion's camp, where many elders rushed in to march to free Zion. Yet, after a few weeks of travel, many of the men often became rebellious against the prophet Joseph. Some left the march, while others became a thorn in the prophet's side. It was from the camp that the Lord was able to pick the future 12 apostles and 70. And it was a time to see who would be rebellious and not receive blessings.

IOW, the concept of marching on Zion brought them together, but they just were not willing to obey the little things while in the camp.

What are some of the little things we justify away? And how can we humble ourselves more to obey in the little things?

[PrinceofLight2000]

You were longing to respond in my thread, weren't you? haha. Blame pam, I didn't want it closed.

[pam]

Blame Prince...he started it. I just got the last word in. :)

[pam]

I can think of some topics we've discussed here. And no we WON'T rehash them. I'm just giving examples.

1. Obeying the Sabbath Day - It's my only day off to do things at home

2. Honest tithe - Justifying their interpretation of increase

3. Appropriate dress for church - God doesn't care what I wear

4. Modesty in clothing - What I wear doesn't influence the thoughts of others

5. Fulfilling callings - I can't do mine if others aren't doing theirs

Edited September 16, 2010 by pam

[PrinceofLight2000]

Blame Prince...he started it. I just got the last word in. :)

What is this, second grade?

[pam]

Blame pam, I didn't want it closed.

Well you DID start it.

[mrmarklin]

A recent thread discussed the issue of why we need shave, and not wear beards. I'm not wanting to re-discuss that issue. Rather this thread is regarding the little things that the prophet expects us to do.

What are our reasonings for doing/not doing the little things expected of us?

How many of us think we are ready and willing to walk back to Missouri or perform some great task for God, yet are not willing to do the little things because we feel they are below us?

\

Not to hijack the thread, but who is walking back to Missouri? Is this doctrinal? I've never heard of any scripture that refers to this.

I was in Missouri last June, and frankly felt it was lucky the Mormons were kicked out. Climate was hot and muggy, and apparently doesn't change much all summer!!! 'Course I'm from California, the real God's Country.

I know it's the center of the future New Jersalem, but is anyone really walking?????

[pam]

I would imagine when some Saints are called to Zion, they won't have the convenience of planes, trains, and automobiles. How else will they get there but to walk?

[pam]

But to an otherwise gloomy picture there is a bright side—the coming of our Lord in all His glory. His coming will be both glorious and terrible, depending on the spiritual condition of those who remain.

One appearance will be to the righteous Saints who have gathered to the New Jerusalem here in America. In this place of refuge they will be safe from the wrath of the Lord which will be poured out without measure on all nations.

Modern revelation provides this description:

“And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

“And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

“And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.” (D&C 45:67–69.)

LDS.org - New Era Article - Prepare Yourself for the Great Day of the Lord

[Tarnished]

I would imagine when some Saints are called to Zion, they won't have the convenience of planes, trains, and automobiles. How else will they get there but to walk?

Also, who knows what kinds of natural disasters might happen between now and then. If there aren't roads to drive on, or gas to fill your car with, and you are intent on traveling to Missouri then what mode of travel are you going to use?

I don't know that the entirety of the church will be called there though, at this point about half (if not more, I don't have the numbers on me) of the church is not located in the US, for those who are located in distant countries they may just be told to create Zion in their homes and temples.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think there are people in the church who think part of the purpose of this life is to become a free thinking, free acting individual. They base that on instruction to learn from every good book, and any bit of knowledge we gain from this life will carry through to the next, ideas. I think that there are people who try to convince themselves that they have to understand the reason behind a commandment and the intrinsic benefits of it before they will obey it. When it might just simply be a test of obedience. I think people fall into that trap because they believe one of the goals of this life is to comprehend God's purpose over being meek, submissive and obedient. So, they try to reason through the relative value of certain commandments. 'If I drink a little bit of caffeine, that isn't as bad for my body as a lot of caffeine', as an example. We don't have to understand the 'why is this good for me' aspect of a commandment to obey it. Relying on one's own knowledge make that person prideful and makes it difficult to pay attention to spiritual promptings over the logic of their own thought. People justify that kind of thought process when they believe that our secular knowledge gained here is somehow comparable to what we learned before this life. The knowledge that we are supposed to gain is not secular but how to distinguish right from wrong spiritually and how to rely on the spirit for guidance. Those people tend to get hung up on little things because they can't figure out the intrinsic value of that particular commandment instead of simply obeying it.

It is good to understand and gain knowledge but not at the price of loosing submissiveness and having an eye single to the glory of God.

[MarginOfError]

I think there are people in the church who think part of the purpose of this life is to become a free thinking, free acting individual. They base that on instruction to learn from every good book, and any bit of knowledge we gain from this life will carry through to the next, ideas. I think that there are people who try to convince themselves that they have to understand the reason behind a commandment and the intrinsic benefits of it before they will obey it. When it might just simply be a test of obedience. I think people fall into that trap because they believe one of the goals of this life is to comprehend God's purpose over being meek, submissive and obedient. So, they try to reason through the relative value of certain commandments. 'If I drink a little bit of caffeine, that isn't as bad for my body as a lot of caffeine', as an example. We don't have to understand the 'why is this good for me' aspect of a commandment to obey it. Relying on one's own knowledge make that person prideful and makes it difficult to pay attention to spiritual promptings over the logic of their own thought. People justify that kind of thought process when they believe that our secular knowledge gained here is somehow comparable to what we learned before this life. The knowledge that we are supposed to gain is not secular but how to distinguish right from wrong spiritually and how to rely on the spirit for guidance. Those people tend to get hung up on little things because they can't figure out the intrinsic value of that particular commandment instead of simply obeying it.

It is good to understand and gain knowledge but not at the price of loosing submissiveness and having an eye single to the glory of God.

While I agree with your greater point, I don't much care for your example, since there is no clear commandment or explanation on how caffeine fits in the word of wisdom. Alcohol or scripture reading might have been better examples of your point, or perhaps even pornography.

[pam]

Also, who knows what kinds of natural disasters might happen between now and then. If there aren't roads to drive on, or gas to fill your car with, and you are intent on traveling to Missouri then what mode of travel are you going to use?

I don't know that the entirety of the church will be called there though, at this point about half (if not more, I don't have the numbers on me) of the church is not located in the US, for those who are located in distant countries they may just be told to create Zion in their homes and temples.

Thank you Tarnished. That's exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned not having the convenience of transportation.

Yes my understanding is not all Saints will be called. Which doesn't mean you are less righteous, but you may be needed to remain in your own area to help there.

[Seminarysnoozer]

While I agree with your greater point, I don't much care for your example, since there is no clear commandment or explanation on how caffeine fits in the word of wisdom. Alcohol or scripture reading might have been better examples of your point, or perhaps even pornography.

Point taken. But your response gets at exactly what I am saying, I think we sometimes over analyze the specifics and miss the greater message. Fortunately, you could see that.

[rameumptom]

Seminarysnoozer, while I agree with your point, there is another way to look at it. My patriarchal blessing tells me 4 times to study, not only the scriptures, but all things, and that my studies would humble me. They have in the fact that they help me understand how little I understand. To paraphrase Socrates: I know nothing, but I still know more than you!

The BoM tells us that knowledge is a good thing if we humble ourselves before God. It is when we begin to think we are wiser than the prophets, or perhaps inconvenienced with their little policies and procedures, that we end up then starting to think we are smarter than they are in regards to principles and doctrines, as well.

I personally like understanding why God commands. And I do search and study for possible reasons. However, I still strive to obey, whether I understand it or not, because my reasoning is founded upon my testimony, and all things grow out from there (and not vice-versa).

[rameumptom]

Not to hijack the thread, but who is walking back to Missouri? Is this doctrinal? I've never heard of any scripture that refers to this.

I was in Missouri last June, and frankly felt it was lucky the Mormons were kicked out. Climate was hot and muggy, and apparently doesn't change much all summer!!! 'Course I'm from California, the real God's Country.

I know it's the center of the future New Jersalem, but is anyone really walking?????

While we may not literally walk to Zion, I wonder how many of us will take side trips on the way there to see the sites? Or, like Samuel Brannan, decide that California is much nicer than Utah, and so insist the Saints move there instead (against Brigham Young's counsel).

BTW, I made my first trip this summer to the Missouri LDS sites. Fell in love with Far West. It is one of the most beautiful and peaceful places, and not ruined by Mormon or Gentile commercialism. Yes, I do love Nauvoo and the temple there, but there is something about the farmland that slopes down from the temple site that is just breath taking and peaceful.

[hordak]

Point taken. But your response gets at exactly what I am saying, I think we sometimes over analyze the specifics and miss the greater message. Fortunately, you could see that.

I think that cuts both ways.

one who thinks

"I can't believe he showed up to church wearing a tee shirt"

or

"I can't believe they expect me to dress up for church"

are both guilty of missing the point.

[Moksha]

And how can we humble ourselves more to obey in the little things?

You mean like allowing our inner Pharisee out long enough for a little obsessive compulsive ritualizing? I suppose, as long as it is back in its room by 9PM. The spirit will be returning shortly thereafter and we don't want a mess all over the living room.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminarysnoozer, while I agree with your point, there is another way to look at it. My patriarchal blessing tells me 4 times to study, not only the scriptures, but all things, and that my studies would humble me. They have in the fact that they help me understand how little I understand. To paraphrase Socrates: I know nothing, but I still know more than you!

The BoM tells us that knowledge is a good thing if we humble ourselves before God. It is when we begin to think we are wiser than the prophets, or perhaps inconvenienced with their little policies and procedures, that we end up then starting to think we are smarter than they are in regards to principles and doctrines, as well.

I personally like understanding why God commands. And I do search and study for possible reasons. However, I still strive to obey, whether I understand it or not, because my reasoning is founded upon my testimony, and all things grow out from there (and not vice-versa).

Yes, that is the tricky part. We are supposed to study and learn but at the same time realize that it is learning about the process of learning spiritually that we are after not the content of the study necessarily.

Lets just take a field of study, Linguistics. Do you think before this life began you knew more or less about linguistics than you do in this life or can hope to attain in this life? Or how about physics, do you think you knew more or less before this world began, in the pre-existence than you ever hope to understand about physics in this world.

I think the veil we now have serves a number of reasons, not only to shroud our life with our Heavenly Father but also so we don't depend too much on our own knowledge. I think once we return we will be surprised how little we had to work with in this life, in terms of secular knowledge and that, like you mentioned, helps us depend on the spiritual side more.

I have many close family members who have pulled away from the church for this very reason. They have several letters behind their name, because study has become their main focus in life. Most of them are in the sciences and its difficult to pull away from the "prove it" mentality instead of listening to the promptings of the spirit. Not all of them have pulled away from the church and like yourself can use knowledge wisely. I think being learned is right up there with being rich in terms of difficulty in entering God's kingdom. I am not saying learning should be avoided, I am just giving an explanation for why I think some people don't do the little things in church, in response to the OP.

[jayanna]

Also, who knows what kinds of natural disasters might happen between now and then. If there aren't roads to drive on, or gas to fill your car with, and you are intent on traveling to Missouri then what mode of travel are you going to use?

I don't know that the entirety of the church will be called there though, at this point about half (if not more, I don't have the numbers on me) of the church is not located in the US, for those who are located in distant countries they may just be told to create Zion in their homes and temples.

The word 'stakes' is really short for 'stakes of Zion' We are to gather to our stake when the time comes...LDS.org - Liahona Article - Preparation for the Second Coming It is written by Dallin H. Oaks, the gathering to Zion instruction is in section 2

I'm glad :) ,my stake center is an hour drive away, but it is still way closer than Missouri.

[applepansy]

Not to hijack the thread, but who is walking back to Missouri? Is this doctrinal? I've never heard of any scripture that refers to this.

I was in Missouri last June, and frankly felt it was lucky the Mormons were kicked out. Climate was hot and muggy, and apparently doesn't change much all summer!!! 'Course I'm from California, the real God's Country.

I know it's the center of the future New Jersalem, but is anyone really walking?????

Willard Richards had a vision where he saw a large group (thousands, mostly women and children) walking back to Missouri. I would have to search to find my copy of it. If someone else has access online please post the link. Thank you.

[applepansy]

back to the thread:

I think paying a full tithe is one of the "little" things for some people. Attending our meetings. Obedience to our local leaders even when we feel they are wrong.

I believe its the little things we need to work on most. The big things are easiest sometimes.

[mrmarklin]

Willard Richards had a vision where he saw a large group (thousands, mostly women and children) walking back to Missouri. I would have to search to find my copy of it. If someone else has access online please post the link. Thank you.

Well, thanks for this reference.

I see no one has quoted any scripture Re: Walking back to Missouri.

Frankly, I see the second coming in much more prosaic terms than the average person I talk to.

[mrmarklin]

I would imagine when some Saints are called to Zion, they won't have the convenience of planes, trains, and automobiles. How else will they get there but to walk?

You can imagine it, but it doesn't make it so.

[pam]

Well we do believe in the literal gathering of Israel in the New Jerusalem. This will happen in the last days prior to Christ's return.

Revelation 21:2

2 And I John saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Many Saints will gather there. My point was, there will be so many things that will happen before this that there might not be the convenience of travel for those that gather there. The most logical form of transportation, if modes of transportation do not exist, will be to walk.

Scriptures do not have to state every minute detail. Nor do they mention people will drive or fly there.

My opinion as well is, the majority of us will remain in our own areas to further the work within our own stakes.