How can you support boxing/ultimate fighting


dash77
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Sounds great - I'll add it to my netflix queue. Another favorite of mine is Jackie Chan's "Legend of Drunken Master".

If I had the funds, I'd probably get my whole family going on Parker's American Kenpo (aka "Mormon Martial arts"). Not because Parker is LDS, but because of it's practical usage in real life. I have to figure out something - I'm thinking it's part of my stewardship as a father to make sure my two girls don't reach puberty without being confident in their ability to drop an attacker a few different ways.

LM

My husband is of the same mindset, when our kids get to an age that they can learn we will probably enroll them in some form of martial arts. Faded's favorite video out there is one where you see the interior of an elevator (taken from the security camera that in the elevator) a girl walks in (she looks to be high school to early college age) and a guy walks in after her, when the elevator doors close the guy goes to attack the girl. The girl suplexes the guy smashing him to the ground. When the elevator doors open again the guy goes running out followed by the girl who looks like she is going to kick his butt.

Anatess,

I did not see that fight, but I believe it. There are a lot of religious fighters. Many of them have crosses or scriptures tattooed onto their bodies. Many of them wear clothing that is very religious. There is one line of clothing out there, "Jesus didn't tap."

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It is nice and all but it is mostly about boxing, MMA is different from boxing in many ways. Look at the part of the article you posted that talks about deaths from boxing. 140 deaths from boxing since 1990. And according to the article, 1 death from MMA since 1993 when it started with the UFC. Do you see a difference there? 140 deaths compared to 1 death. And the reason behind only 1 death? The safety standards that are used. In boxing a fighter is given a count of 10 to get up and continue fighting. In an MMA fight the fight would be stopped. If the fighter is bleeding too much, if the fighter is unable to focus their eyes, if the fighter can not defend themselves, if the fighter is hit in such a way where they could be injured, the fight stops. The list of things that can stop an MMA fight goes on and on. By the way, one of the references sited by the article for the MMA portion was from a study done in 1984, before the UFC was ever founded.

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So, Dash is getting pretty beat up in this thread (verbally, of course). But I think he's making a very basic point that I agree with: Ya shouldn't glorify violence and seek to be entertained by it.

From the Strength of the Youth Pamphlet:

Do not attend, view, or participate in entertainment

that is vulgar, immoral, violent, or pornographic in any

way. Do not participate in entertainment that in any way

presents immorality or violent behavior as acceptable.

...

Depictions of violence often glamorize vicious

behavior. They offend the Spirit and make you less able

to respond to others in a sensitive, caring way. They

contradict the Savior’s message of love for one another.

Most everyone on the other side of this fence, are telling Dash they're not glorifying violence or watching it to be entertained. They're learning about reality, becoming edified about what the wonderful levels of conditioning a human body is capable of, thinking through their own actions in situations where they may need to defend themselves. Nobody here likes to drool beer all over themselves while shouting "H*LL YEAH" watching someone get their brains punched in. And that seems to be dash's main gripe - is that folks who do, aren't following the path Christ would have them follow.

Whaddaya all say?

LM

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So, Dash is getting pretty beat up in this thread (verbally, of course). But I think he's making a very basic point that I agree with: Ya shouldn't glorify violence and seek to be entertained by it.

From the Strength of the Youth Pamphlet:

Most everyone on the other side of this fence, are telling Dash they're not glorifying violence or watching it to be entertained. They're learning about reality, becoming edified about what the wonderful levels of conditioning a human body is capable of, thinking through their own actions in situations where they may need to defend themselves. Nobody here likes to drool beer all over themselves while shouting "H*LL YEAH" watching someone get their brains punched in. And that seems to be dash's main gripe - is that folks who do, aren't following the path Christ would have them follow.

Whaddaya all say?

LM

Does this mean we shouldn't be watching football either because it gets pretty violent too? LOL What about staged violence like professional wrestling? ;)

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Does this mean we shouldn't be watching football either because it gets pretty violent too? LOL What about staged violence like professional wrestling? ;)

Professional wrestling is funny.

You know why I don't watch it... I hate it when they put the skimpy girls in there to act like idiots.

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On movies...

Grandmaster Ip Man is my favorite martial arts movie of all time. It is set in World War II and is based on a true story so it is Rated R.

Drunken Master is my 2nd favorite.

Crouching Tiger is my 3rd.

I grew up on Shaolin Temple. :)

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Professional wrestling is funny.

You know why I don't watch it... I hate it when they put the skimpy girls in there to act like idiots.

I still watch wrestling to this day. Just a little heads up...It isnt just the girls who dress in skimpy clothes and act like idiots. By comparison, the girls wear a lot more clothes than the guys LOL It'll never be as good as it was in the 80s though.

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I use to watch wrestling like 15 or 20 years ago and then I realized one day that I was supporting an entertainment industry that really contributes to some really awful things. I have learned that wrestlers are treated incredibly unfairly, the steroid use is high (which changes brain formation), and the death rate is high. I finally thoughts were: (1) there really are better ways to spend my time, and (2) I did not want to support an organization that really does terrible things. In the end, I just can’t see Jesus Christ supporting something like this – so I do not think I should also. Although we are all sinners and have natural man/women tendencies -- we really should be trying to act as the Savior would. So, I could not justify it from a Christain perspective and stopped watching it.

I agree with Anatess about the women in skimpy clothes and curtishouse about the men also in skimpy clothes. Although not research based, I think this news article outlines the many deaths – it’s a brutal industry.

Pro Wrestler's Deaths

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I use to watch wrestling like 15 or 20 years ago and then I realized one day that I was supporting an entertainment industry that really contributes to some really awful things. I have learned that wrestlers are treated incredibly unfairly, the steroid use is high (which changes brain formation), and the death rate is high. I finally thoughts were: (1) there really are better ways to spend my time, and (2) I did not want to support an organization that really does terrible things. In the end, I just can’t see Jesus Christ supporting something like this – so I do not think I should also. Although we are all sinners and have natural man/women tendencies -- we really should be trying to act as the Savior would. So, I could not justify it from a Christain perspective and stopped watching it.

I agree with Anatess about the women in skimpy clothes and curtishouse about the men also in skimpy clothes. Although not research based, I think this news article outlines the many deaths – it’s a brutal industry.

Pro Wrestler's Deaths

Things are slowly but surely turning around for wrestlers. They are still being classified as independent contractors instead of employees so they don't get benefits but I don't see that happening much longer. Also they are implementing a drug policy so the tragedies of recent years won't return.

The biggest reason I still watch wrestling is because it is almost like a family member. I grew up watching it and had such fond memories as a child and then the white-hot period of the Attitude era from 1996-2001 when wrestling even got hotter than it did during the "rock-n-wrestling" era of the 80s with Cyndi Lauper, MTV, etc. It's more loyalty now than anything. If I never watched it before and then just flipped to it on tv by accident, I probably wouldn't even give it a second thought.

Wrestling, specifically WWE, has toned down its product as of late and works hard to stay in the bounds of the TV-PG rating. They are catering a lot towards children again and are especially on their best behavior since Vince McMahon's wife, Linda, is running for Senate. Except for a few occasions, I have no problem watching wrestling in its current form and maintaining a good conscience about it.

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I think people love to single out Mixed Martial Arts and the UFC specifically as some sort of evil "bloodsport" thing. The underlying thing is that fatality rates are higher for sports like football and boxing.

The function of the sport is simple. As Jim Brown put it at UFC 1, "I think what we learned tonight is that fighting is very different from what we thought it was." If you have a dedicated sport to Muay Thai, you live within Muay Thai's limitations. If you're a boxer, you specialize in an extremely limited piece of what an actual fight could be like. Karate tournaments, wrestling tournaments, kickboxing tournaments -- they all operate with the same basic problem: They're limited to just their general category with a lot of rules, and nobody knew how well they'd fair against other styles.

The Gracie's showed the world how effective their Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was by sending their skinniest, least physically imposing brother into a tournament where every martial arts style was equally welcome and then beating everybody with relative ease, irrespective of size. Only Judo and other Jui Jitsu guys gave Royce Gracie any difficulty. What did we really learn from that? That fighting isn't what we thought it was. What works in a real fight isn't what Hollywood portrayed it as, nor what any individual martial art thought worked. What worked wasn't flashy kicks and punches and knees. Kung Fu theater was likewise wrong. What worked was grappling and submissions. A trained grappler could beat a fighter over a hundred pounds bigger than them, irrespective of strength. Only if that bigger stronger person has grappling training will they even stand a chance.

I think this proved that it can be a very good system for anyone who is significantly weaker than their attacker. Best case in point: Women who are attacked by a potential rapist. What if the woman can subdue her attacker? Rape is FAR too common these days, and I would rather have any daughter of mine break a prospective rapist's arm or put him to sleep than have him be able to easily overpower her, rape her and possibly kill her afterwards. Looking back at my childhood, I know I was the victim of almost constant bullying. While I'm not a violent person by nature, there were a few occasions where it wouldn't have been a good thing for me to know how to defend myself well.

MMA provides a laboratory for proving how effective each martial arts technique can be. So what works best in MMA is what works best in the real world. It also answers the question: "What happens when a world-class kung fu fighter goes up against a world class wrestler?" Answer: Wrestler wins in almost all cases. Hollywood wouldn't have guessed that one in a million years! What is the best, most effective martial art in the world? All of them mixed together, with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Kickboxing and Judo being most important in the mix. How did we find that out? Because MMA proved it to be true in actual fights, that's how.

So I want to get myself and my kids into the best martial arts training possible so that we can defend ourselves should the worst happen and we are attacked by somebody, heaven forbid. How do I that we're trained in the best martial arts? Simple, we go to a reputable MMA academy and learn the latest and greatest techniques that work in the octagon right now. That equips us to be as well prepared as possible for worst-case scenarios, should they arise.

Edited by Faded
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Recent NFL deaths:

San Francisco 49er backup offensive lineman Thomas Herrion died after a preseason game in 2005. Minnesota Viking offensive lineman Corey Stringer died of heatstroke after a training camp practice in 2001. Prior to that St. Louis Cardinal tight end J.V. Cain died of a heart attack in traning camp in 1979 and Chuck Hughes, receiver for the Detroit Lions, died on the field of a heart attack during a game in 1971.

NHL deaths and a few near-misses:

In 1967 Bill Masterton was coaxed out of retirement to play with the Minnesota North Stars during their inaugural season. On January 13, 1968, early in a game against the Oakland Seals, Masterton was hit almost simultaneously by two of the Seal players and fell backwards hitting his head on the ice. Two days later he passed away from a massive hemorage. In 2008, Richard Zednick was accidently slashed by a skate across his throat while playing for the Florida Panthers against the Buffalo Sabres in Buffalo. Although the injury was definitely life-threatening, quick action by Zednick to get off the ice and the trainers of both teams and local doctors prevented a tragic ending. In 1989, ironically also in Buffalo, Clint Malarchuk also had his throat slashed by a skate while playing goal for the Sabres. Again, due to quick actions by those at the rink, Malarchuk's life was also saved after the accident. Both Malarchuk and Zednick returned to their teams and played again after recovering from their respective accidents. In 2006, Rene Bourque was playing for the Chicago Blackhawks against the Columbus Blue Jackets and suffered an accident similar to Zednick's. However, luckily for Bourque, the injury was not as severe and apparently he was not in nearly as much danger as either Malarchuk or Zednick. There are some who would credit Howie Morentz's death to an on-ice broken leg and the complications that resulted. However, the cause of death listed for Morentz was "pulmonary embolism". This may or may not have been indirectly caused by the broken leg and could also have been a result of the alchohol that was sneaked to Morentz by his friends while he was in the hospital.

Extremely Incomplete list of Boxing Deaths:

Daniel Aguillón, Pedro Alcázar, Bae Ki-Suk, Sonny Banks, Carlos Barreto, Andy Bowen, Felix Bwalya, Simon Byrne, Frankie Campbell, Randie Carver, Yo-Sam Choi, Cleveland Denny, Jimmy Doyle, Benjamín Flores, Leavander Johnson, Duk Koo Kim, Alexander McKay, Charlie Mohr, Johnny Montantes, Davey Moore, James Murray, Marco Antonio Nazareth, Johnny Owen, Greg Page, Benny Paret, Kevin Payne, Henri Piet, Lavern Roach, Francisco Rodriguez, Brad Rone, Martín Sánchez, Ed Sanders, Ernie Schaaf, Lito Sisnorio, Luis Villalta, Robert Wangila, Sonny Boy West, Becky Zerlentes.

NOTE: Since the UFC came into existence in 1993, at least 75 professional boxers have died due to injuries they received in the boxing ring. Last I checked, professional boxing has not managed to go a full year in that same span of time without at least one fighter dying due to fight related injuries.

One very interesting point worth mentioning: John McCain, the primary leader of the crusade to shut down the UFC back in the 1990's is a HUGE boxing fan. It was his negative publicity campaign against the UFC that led most states to ban MMA and the UFC. He very nearly succeeded in destroying the sport -- at least in the USA. Dana White and the Fetita brothers purchased the UFC and worked out a system of rules and limitations to allow the sport to continue on. I like John McCain in general, but in this case, he was the lead torch bearer of a giant hypocritical witch hunt. Actions by medical organizations and state governments were HEAVILY affected by McCain's anti-MMA witch hunt. Anybody can make a convincing argument via research for just about any point they care to make.

But the following numbers speak for themselves:

Deaths in the UFC:

None.

Near Deaths in the UFC:

None.

All other professional sports listed above have had at least one death or a very near death in the span of time that the UFC has been in existence. You can do your best to make the sport sound scandalous. You can say that it's "EVIL!!" or "Psychotic Bloodsport!!" or paint it in the worst light possible however you like. I fail to comprehend how it is any worst than any other contact sport. The numbers tell a completely opposite tale. The underlying fact is that it's MUCH safer than virtually any other contact sport.

Edited by Faded
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Excellent last two posts, Faded! It helped me put a lot of my thoughts into words. One small element of disagreement though:

So I want to get myself and my kids into the best martial arts training possible so that we can defend ourselves should the worst happen and we are attacked by somebody, heaven forbid. How do I that we're trained in the best martial arts? Simple, we go to a reputable MMA academy and learn the latest and greatest techniques that work in the octagon right now. That equips us to be as well prepared as possible for worst-case scenarios, should they arise.

I've got the same goal in mind with my two little girls. However, facing a single adversary that you expected to see, and can clearly see across a well-lighted octagon doesn't always reflect what you find in real life. Yeah, the Gracie family showed us what works best 1:1 when an unarmed fight is expected. What works best against a group? Or when you've been partially disabled? Or when your attacker is armed with things they don't let into the ring? What form prepares you to react the quickest against a surprise encounter? Or teaches you the best situational awareness so you can avoid the encounter in the first place? I'm thinking the jury is still out on those...

I see martial arts as a major component of self-defense, but only one of several components. And for that matter, self-defense is only one component of overall preparadness against the trials and tribulations life throws at us. I find it useful and good to discuss, plan, and train for physical confrontations against bad guys (especially if you're raising girls like I am). But I also find it useful to look at self-defense as what place it holds in my overall life.

This is a great thread, btw!

LM

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Faded (and other UFC advocates):

There is no doubt that injury happen in other sports. There is a good deal of research that outlines that years of butting heads in the NFL is causing damage to the brain and that this, along with multiple concussion, actually causes the brain to change – leading to long term health issues, like depression

But keep in mind the comparisons you are making between football, hockey and UFC are not fair-minded because you are comparing a sports with an over 100 year history to the UFC, which really began somewhere in the middle of the 1990’s. I am sure in 100 years, there will be more more damage to UFC fighters than football players. Again, in the NHL there are penalties to blows to the head in UFC and boxing blows to the head are encouraged. (see Recent MMA fighter deaths raise questions | MMAjunkie.com regarding this issue in UFC and boxing).

Furthermore, why does the AMA and CMA advocate a ban on boxing and UFC, but not others sports like baseball, football or hockey? Even in baseball a 100 mile an hour fastball to the head can cause death. The reason is that in these others sport, although injuries happen, the sport does not advocate the purposeful injury of vital human organs, like the brain. In UFC and boxing – it’s the opposite – blows to key organs -- like the brain -- are encouraged and advocated. Further, why do eleven national medical associations (Australia, Bangladesh, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Ghana, Ireland, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway and South Africa) confirmed their opposition to boxing (and many of the UFC) and not other sports? Why are not these eleven medical authorities advocating a ban on soccer?

Beyond answering these two questions, from a Christian perspective do you really think the Savior would encourage us to go to fights where people really do hurt each other, cheer and yell for someone to brutally hurt another person? Do you think the Savior would encourage this? Just read the last part of the link I provided (above) and can you honestly tell me the Savior would think creating this type of damage to another human – so that other people can have some sick degree of pleasure watch and cheering -- being would be OK?

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1.) Justin Eilers dies of a gunshot would courtesy of his step-father. Relevance to "the UFC is a dangerous deadly bloodsport ..." = ZERO.

2.) Evan Tanner takes a tremendous risk by heading out on a camping venture in the California desert alone and with inadequate emergency backup. Runs out of water and dies of heat exhaustion. Relevance to "the UFC is a dangerous deadly bloodsport ..." = ZERO.

3.) Justin Levens shoots his wife and then shoots himself. Relevance to "the UFC is a dangerous deadly bloodsport ..." = ZERO.

To say that these deaths are even remotely blameable on each fighter's UFC fighting career is stretching things way beyond what is reasonable. The UFC, for better or for worse, is under the gun. Anything that can be remotely be blamed on them tends to get blamed on them. But the article you posted is entirely speculative. Of course people are going to want to blame these deaths on the UFC! They'll stretch the truth as far as it will go to get them there! But what is cited in the article are vices and personal problems of the individuals.

Here's a few other bits of speculative but entirely unprovable history for you: Elvis is alive, the CIA orchestrated the assassination of Kennedy and a secret organization of super-elite individuals secretly rules the world today. All of these are possible, but none have a shred of proof substantiating them.

What you're failing to realize is how far the UFC in particular goes to keep the sport safe for it's fighters. There have been two drastically irresponsible endings to fights.

-- First case: Renato "Babalu" Sobral held onto a choke hold when the referee after the referee repeatedly told him to let go. Result? Renato Sobral, one of the most exciting and successful fighters in the sport's history, was IMMEDIATELY cut from the UFC, and will never fight there again.

-- Second case: Paul "Semtex" Daley suffers a humiliating loss to Josh Koscheck. After the fight, Daley walks over to Koscheck. It is not uncommon for fighters to shake hands, embrace, and/or congratulate the victor at the end of a fight, so that's what everyone figured Daley was doing. Instead, he sucker punches Koscheck. Result? Daley is IMMEDIATELY cut from the UFC and Dana White announces that under no circumstances will he ever be back in the octagon. The UFC cuts Paul Daley, one of the most exciting prospect fighters in the world, without a second thought.

Both guys stood to make the UFC a lot of money -- and the controversy would have brought in even more. But the UFC made it very clear that they would not tollerate such behavior.

The other things you're not seeing is one of the most rigorous medical pre-screening processes in sports. I can remember several occasions where they turned up a potentially fatal health hazard. In one case a fighter's brain was pre-wired for an anurizm. The medical pre-screening caught it and the fighter was released from The Ultimate Fighter reality show without fighting once. There are countless other cases of the same sort of thing. The UFC knows that there is a lot of eyes on them, just waiting for a death or severly debilitating injury to happen inside the octagon. The piece that you're not bothering to see is that they're doing everything in their power to make sure it never happens. The same cannot be said of other contact sports, nor can it be said of other MMA organizations. For example, Renato Sobral will fight for the 3rd time for the Strikeforce MMA promotion this coming December.

The reason that my comparison between the other contact sports and the UFC is fair is as simple as this: Every other contact sport has either had somebody die or come very, very close to it since 1993. The UFC started in 1993. So we're dealing with exactly the same span of time.

I do write semi-professionally about MMA, so I know the ins and outs of the sport very, very well. It gives me a significant advantage in this sort of debate.

why do eleven national medical associations (Australia, Bangladesh, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Ghana, Ireland, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway and South Africa) confirmed their opposition to boxing (and many of the UFC) and not other sports? Why are not these eleven medical authorities advocating a ban on soccer?

Probably because soccer is not a contact sport. You might as well drag women's croquet into it while you're at it, but exactly what are you proving? My point remains: Contact sports are dangerous, but the UFC is one of the safest contact sports around. The rest of MMA tend to copy the UFC's safety practices but many don't have as clean of a track record -- often via cutting corners.

Eleven medical organizations are playing it safe. There will be more debilitating injuries and deaths from rugby in the next quarter century, yet rugby is actively played in all of the nations you cited, and only the incredibly impovrished Bangladesh does not have a national team. In the 110 years that rugby has been played, there has been 71 recorded deaths in the sport of rugby, and yes indeed some of those are since 1993. Yet most consider this to be a relatively safe track record for such a rough contact sport.

Beyond answering these two questions, from a Christian perspective do you really think the Savior would encourage us to go to fights where people really do hurt each other, cheer and yell for someone to brutally hurt another person? Do you think the Savior would encourage this? Just read the last part of the link I provided (above) and can you honestly tell me the Savior would think creating this type of damage to another human – so that other people can have some sick degree of pleasure watch and cheering -- being would be OK?

In a violent world, I think following the Boy Scout Motto, "Be prepared" is the best policy. Let's consider a few cases in point.

David killed Goliath, yet it was accounted as a good thing, not a bad thing. He killed Goliath because he knew how to use the sling very well, and that is where the Lord helped him win.

We may not have the full reasoning behind it, but we do know that the Israelites were specifically commanded to erradicate the older inhabitants of the promised land completely. Their failure to do so -- call it mercy, or call it passivism, or call it whatever you like -- was not accounted unto them as righteousness. It was condemned by the Lord and the survival of those peoples was a leading cause of Israel falling into wickedness and ultimately being driven out of the promised land and scattered. In a lost and fallen world, the Lord's position is not always one of limitless passivism. Sometimes, in this violent world, the Lord commands his people to do violent things.

An even better example is found in the person of Ammon in the Book of Mormon. Ammon defends the kings flocks. He obviously wasn't truly trying to kill the thieving Lamanites, as evidenced by Ammon only cutting their arms off -- but there was an exception. He did kill the ringleader with the sword. Now what on earth was Ammon doing with a sword to begin with? Do you suppose that he just barely learned how to use it right there an then, or do you think he had spent a lot of time practicing with it? I would venture to say that he had put in a lot of practice with it. He was prepared to use his sling and sword if he needed to, and because these were skills he already had sharpened, these were the means that the Lord used to get the attention of the Lamanite king. So I ask you, how could God forgive Ammon who outright killed several men, just because they were trying to steal somebody else's sheep?

At the end of the day, Mixed Martial Arts provides a laboratory to find out what really and truly works in one-on-one unarmed combat. Militaries and police forces around the world adopt the practices that come from it. So if I want the best chance of success at defending myself, then MMA provides the best possible tools to do the job. It is nonsensical to expect any martial arts system not to have it's students practice their skills against each other. There is no other way to truly be ready for a real-world situation. The fact that martial arts has produced tournaments and competitions to find out who is the best of the best -- this too should come as no surprise. The most elite students want a place to showcase their skills and prove that they're better than everyone else. MMA is just a logical progression from a kung fu or karate tournament -- taking the best overall fighters in the world and pitting them against each other. All of them make the conscious choice to participate. All of them know the risks going into it. All of the choose to compete anyways. Most are not in it for the money -- as the pay is generally lousy. Most of them are in it to test themselves and prove that they are the best fighter in the world.

Just like any other contact sport, you stand a good chance of being injured in some manner. But because so many haters are waiting in the wings for the sport to prove to be "a dangerous deadly bloodsport ..." the people running MMA events have to be much more consious of the safety of their athletes than any other contact sport.

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Faded:

I think we just have very different interpretations of health and Christian behavior. Here is where I think we differ.

First, research in brain development outlines very clearly that trauma to the brain changes the brain structure. If a part of the brain is damaged and does not work – a person can still live and function – you can see this is some people who live after a stroke or after a car accident with brain injury. Some become dressed (due to brain changes) and some lose their balance. Repeated strikes to the head – be it soccer or UFC causes brain damage and the consequences of brain damage are vast (meaning, all people with brain damage do not have the same effect). Competent medical doctors and health researchers have begun to outline that repeated trauma to the brain can cause brain injury and then cause a person to become depressed and kill themselves or have bizarre behavior like running alone in a dessert. It is the brain changes due to the brain trauma that causes these. In football, the same phenomenon is being seem – those players with repeated concussion do have brains that have actually changed physiologically. So, death from brain damage is not always a kick to the head and then the person is dead 30 minutes later – it can be repeated kicks to the head and after 5 or 10 years of this, the person becomes bizarre and does something like kills himself. I would challenge you to have more ubiquitous thinking and see some of the deaths of UFC fighters coming from repeated brain trauma.

Second, I see the eleven medical authorities – including the Canadian and American Medical Association – as the most mature and credible source of health information. Further, I think their collective voice is much more credible than your single voice. I will begin to change my position when you can render real credible health organizations (such as the American Public Health Association, the American Psychological Association, AMA) that state that UFC and boxing does not create serious problems. I might be wrong, but I think you’re a UFC advocate and therefore you think you know more than the AMA and these other 11 medical authorities. I differ – if the AMA and CMA, along with 10 other medical authorities state that boxing and UF should be banned due to the health damage – I am not going to think I know more than them. I do not think you know more than them.

Third, where I can agree with you is in the area of self defense. I can understand learning ultimate fighting skills to protect oneself . I can also agree with you that people would need to step inside the ring to really learn fighting skills or watch others. But it is an incredible stretch to suggest that this is what is going on in some of these big ticket matches that thousands if not millions of people watch live or on TV. No one has to watch this level of intense fighting to learn basic fighting skills to protect their home. I think too many people are using this as a rationalizing thought in order to continue to feel some degree of natural-man pleasure of watching someone get brutally beat up.

Fourth, it is not like other contact sports because other contact sports do not purposely try to create damage to vital human organs. In soccer, a player does not try to kick another person in the head hoping to cause the brain to bleed, which results in loss of consciousness. This is one reason why medical organizations have banned it. I would not lump boxing and UF into contact sports – it a blood sport, not a contact sport.

Fifth and I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but I just can’t see Jesus Christ endorsing this. I can’t visualize him cheering and yelling at a UF match as one person smashes another person and possible breaks their nose or causes such damage to another person’s brain that they loss consciousness. Do you really see the Savior supporting this?

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Dash,

You seem to be saying that "track records and history are irrelevant, all combat sports are evil and should be shunned because they are combat sports. They don't get to be categorized as contact sports because they are evil bloodsports." You essentially concede that, "Even if another sport has repeatedly proven to be more dangerous and a more serious threat to cause brain damage and debilitating injury, we will ignore that fact completely. The only relevant fact is that in the UFC, fighters are trying to hurt each other." Boxing, rugby and football all have MUCH higher rates of head injury. MMA's rate of head injury is lower because there are so many ways to win that have nothing to do with hitting your opponent in the head.

The general dismissal of facts as irrelevant -- that's where I don't follow your line of reasoning. The UFC is vastly safer than most contact sports. All you're doing is joining in with the same witch-hunting groups out there who see what appears to be brutality, and jump to the immediate conclusion that people must be getting killed almost constantly or that there are hospital wings filled with human vegetables who used to fight in MMA. Therein lies the problem: None of these things are true. But you seem to be willing to call this fact irrelevant.

If you are reasoning that any sport that has a high degree of injury should be banned, it would effectively eliminate: Football, soccer, baseball, basketball, rugby, hockey ... Wait a second. Come to think of it, there pretty much isn't any sport where injury isn't commonplace at the highest levels of competition ... except maybe curling:lol:. So since all sports are dangerous, we just need to ban all sports for the good of humankind. Only curling, horseshoes and a few other sports danger-free sports will be tolerated.

You keep using that word "Bloodsport." Exactly what are you trying to say by it? It's a fine way to strike a chord with anyone who is ignorant. I can keep soccer from being introduced to a new nation that's never heard of it if I call it a bloodsport and do a lot of fear-mongering without qualification. I can work my way around to making the term stick to soccer easily enough if asked. Without qualification of exactly what "bloodsport" means, how honest is the appellation?

The health organizations in question are hypocrites because they already allow sports that are significantly more dangerous into their countries. From what I've seen, no they are not doing their homework, and they're allowing themselves to be manipulated into believing that MMA is more dangerous than it actually is. MMA is a new phenomenon and a new sport, and there's a tendency to fear things you're not familiar with.

I am not one voice but represent many others who actually do my homework before passing judgement on the sport. There are a number of reasons that people misjudge MMA at a glance. First of all, they tend to abhor seeing a fighter standing up who is trying to pummel a fighter who is flat on his back. This natural reaction is not reasonable though. What you're not seeing is John Fitch flat on his back kicking a standing Thiago Alves and knocking him out. Additionally, the vast majority of submission moves are best performed while lying flat on your back and rolling for leverage. The old notion that being flat on your back equates to helplessness just isn't true in MMA. Fighters are constantly winning from their back. And the rules severely limit what a standing fighter can do the a downed opponent. The most successful, dominant fighter in MMA history, Fedor Emelianenko just recently suffered his first true loss to Fabricio Werdum, after he had knocked Werdum down (though Werdum might have fallen on purpose.) Fedor's big mistake? Trying to jump on Werdum and beat up one of the worlds most elite submissions fighters rather than letting Werdum stand back up again. That broke a 10+ year 27 fight winning streak. (Fedor's only other loss was due to a technicality, and should have been a win by disqualification except for oddball circumstances.) This should make it very clear: Just because a fighter is on his back does not mean he isn't dangerous. He is often very, very dangerous from his back.

Self defense teaching is better off for the existence of MMA because it provides an actual proving ground where fighters of all styles can try to find success with their particular style. One of my favorite fighters, Lyoto Machida, recently brought Karate back from being obsolete in MMA, and he did this by melding in Sumo, Freestyle Wrestling, Muay Thai, and Jiu Jitsu, adapting it into something entirely new -- Machida Karate he calls it. Machida is famous for being unbelievably hard to hit. Not a bad skill to learn.

You might argue that this is a black and white issue. I see it as a grey area. I think it's much like being a vegetarian vs not being a vegetarian. A vegetarian can be very passionate about their position, but it does not make it morally reprehensible for me to have a hamburger or a steak every now and then. They can choose to refrain from eating meat, but they don't get to make that judgement call for me or anyone else.

Dash, you clearly seem to have already made up your mind on the issue and you're just trying to convert everyone else to accept your opinion. Tends to make for a very poor discussion, wouldn't you say?

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I've got the same goal in mind with my two little girls. However, facing a single adversary that you expected to see, and can clearly see across a well-lighted octagon doesn't always reflect what you find in real life. Yeah, the Gracie family showed us what works best 1:1 when an unarmed fight is expected. What works best against a group? Or when you've been partially disabled? Or when your attacker is armed with things they don't let into the ring? What form prepares you to react the quickest against a surprise encounter? Or teaches you the best situational awareness so you can avoid the encounter in the first place? I'm thinking the jury is still out on those...

I've seen TV shows that highlighted just the sort of training you mention. The techniques are much the same as MMA, you just use them differently against a group of multiple attackers. Any submission-type hold that cannot be executed quickly to disable an opponent is not used, but anything that can score a quick finish is still used.

MMA has long since evolved beyond Gracie jiu jitsu. You cannot hope to succeed in MMA without Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but it is not the only winning technique. A Muay Thai fighter who is well versed in takedown defense and submission defense can often beat the BJJ guy. Wrestlers tend to beat absolutely everyone due to their incredible core strength, use of leverage and smothering power. Currently, three of the five UFC champions built their fighting skills on dominant wrestling ability. Greco Roman wrestling has made a tremendous impact, though there are not many fighters with a background in it. Those Greco Roman wrestlers who do find success in MMA are serious trouble for absolutely anyone. Dan Henderson is a middleweight, but handed Heavyweight legend Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira his first loss ever. Randy Couture's frame is better suited for Light Heavyweight, but he's the most dominant Heavyweight champion in UFC history. Chael Sonnen absolutely manhandled Anderson Silva for most of 5 rounds only to lose to a last minute submission by the champion. Nobody had ever seen Anderson Silva manhandled quite like that. All three of these guys have Greco Roman Wrestling in common. It seems to be the best base to build a full compliment of MMA skills on.

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Faded:

Do you really think the American Medical Association (and these other 11 medical authorities) are really hypocrites? When we are sick or need surgery I do not think we see medical doctors are hypocrites. There are bad doctors about there – no doubt – but you are claiming that the entire American Medical Association and these 11 parallel organizations are hypocrites because they want boxing and ultimate fighting banned. Their rational seems very fair-minded to me – boxing and UF is different than contact sports because boxing and UF purposely try to damage vital human organs like the kidney or brain. Other sports like soccer do not purposely allow this. When there is trauma to the brain, the brain bleeds or the kidney bleed – this is why it is a blood sport, not a contact sport. Perhaps these medical authorities that credential medical practice are not hypocrites – perhaps there medical training (sometimes up to 20 years of university school0 really do know more. Perhaps you just do not know enough about the functioning of vital organs to be in a position to really understand.

Second – and this question is not just for you, but is for all the people who advocate UF and boxing who identify as a Christian – can you really see Jesus Christ endorsing this? I just can’t visualize the Savior cheering and yelling at a UF match as one person smashes another person and possible breaks their nose or causes damage to another person’s brain that they loss consciousness. Do you really see the Savior supporting this? I am not trying to condemn. However, because I think the Savior would find UF and boxing matches so revolting, I am simply try to understand how anyone who identifies as a Christian can put it together that the Savior would endorse watching this for pleasure. I understand the self-defense training – but the spectator aspect and enjoyment of watching people pound each other does not seem like something any Christian should participate in. How do you (and other pro UF spectator) put this together?

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I am not trying to condemn.

Yet you come across as doing so. By telling a group of Christians that do something that no Christian should/would do something you imply they aren't true/real Christians. It is much like the late Moksha's attempts to insinuate that if you didn't agree with certain welfare policies that you weren't acting like a Christian. There are subtler ways of condemning people than shouting from the top of your lungs, "You are hellbound!"

Edited by Dravin
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Or, Dravin, its a good way to side step the question. You can claim I am condeming when I have been forthright in explaining -- I can't fathom how a Christain can attend a UF or boxing match -- please explain. How much more honest can I be? I hope the "you are codeming" or "do not judge" is not being used to side step a question I have asked. I am trying to understand other people who have a very different view on a topic. I really want to hear the answer.

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Or, Dravin, its a good way to side step the question.

I don't recall quoting a question in the post you are referring to.

/me checks.

Nope, I didn't. So if I sidestepped any question it was in not responding to it. Of course I wasn't trying to respond to it, I was commenting on something else. Hard as it may be to fathom, I am not required to address your question. You do not own the thread nor do you have the ability to dictate what I respond to.

You can claim I am condeming when I have been forthright in explaining -- I can't fathom how a Christain can attend a UF or boxing match -- please explain. How much more honest can I be?

Being honest does not preclude coming across as condemning. I find the suggestion that such is the case to be odd at best and false dichotomy at worse (honesty precludes coming across as condemnation and visa versa).

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Yeah, nobody asked me to muddy the waters further, but here goes:

Last year I went hunting for the first time. I sucessfully shot and killed a doe, a process that involved picking one of God's creatures, placing her in the crosshairs, and blowing a big hole in her. I further worked an additional process on her called "cleaning and dressing", but is more accurately described as "ripping guts out, peeling the skin off, and cutting off the head". I found the experience to be highly spiritual - one that brought me closer to my Heavenly Father. Even though I came home covered in blood and stinking of guts and carnage.

There have been many people who have expressed a total lack of understanding of how such a bloody gory thing could be spiritual. There have been many people who question the discipleship of people who hunt. Now that I've been through the process for myself, I don't really have much to say to those people. It's not my problem that they don't get it.

LM

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