Guest Starsky Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Originally posted by bizabra+Feb 28 2004, 12:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Feb 28 2004, 12:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 27 2004, 09:14 PM If success in the world and appearing to be 'the model' citizen were markers of 'doing right' then some of the most demonic people in the world would apply and be accepted.I don't know how many times I have seen the child molesters being portrayed by their neighbors as the 'totally nices and greatest people....'The gay lifestyle is sick, wrong, and destructive...you don't always see the damage until it is way too late. Please elaborate on what you mean by "destrcutive". In what way, EXACTLY, do you mean by this?Thanks. It could take a major research paper to really do it justice...but I will simply state that it is destructive to remove boundaries and muddy up the water fore every special interest group out there.We are already killing\murdering babies by the millions under the muddied water of 'free choice'...We add another perversion to do the same thing with marriage ...and we are only adding to the weakness of our civilization.We won't have any clear cut boundaries between right/wrong and good/evil.Many would love to just erase the word 'evil' from the dictionary...Pray to God, we don't go down that far....But it is being done on such a suttle level...one step down at a time....that most don't see the warning signs...When you no longer have white to lay up side of black...no one will recognize black as being black.When you no longer have good to lay up side of evil...no one will recognize evil as being evil.That is why it is necessary to have oposition in all things. The destructive thing about any perversion is that it is trying to redefine evil as good and when you only have evil for your good...well...it's over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 That is why it is necessary to have oposition in all things. The destructive thing about any perversion is that it is trying to redefine evil as good and when you only have evil for your good...well...it's over. *****' Well given the religious based definition for both..... .... works for me. The sooner the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by sgallan@Feb 28 2004, 05:12 PM Well given the religious based definition for both..... Oh I don't know...when you see families pulling together, sacrificing for one another because of their love......you say ..it is good.When you see some creep killing little girls after ravishing their tiny little bodies...you say...it is evil.No religion to it. It either builds strong healthy societies or it destroys them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Oh I don't know...when you see families pulling together, sacrificing for one another because of their love......you say ..it is good.**** You didn't when I said it. *** When you see some creep killing little girls after ravishing their tiny little bodies...you say...it is evil. *** You think? *** No religion to it. It either builds strong healthy societies or it destroys them.*** I think we define it different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Oh I don't know...when you see families pulling together, sacrificing for one another because of their love......you say ..it is good.****You didn't when I said it.We were discussing judging homosexuals in the context of appearances...now we are discussing good and evil as catagories FOR judgment. They are two entirely different areas of discussion. The first...is about whether or not we can say that if someone is doing something perverse, but they do some really good things...and seem perfectly wonderful when viewed upon the outward appearances...that it justifies their perversion.The second...is about putting all things...into catagories of good and evil...and having the contrast of opposites to determine what is good and what is evil.*** When you see some creep killing little girls after ravishing their tiny little bodies...you say...it is evil. ***You think?Yeah. *** No religion to it. It either builds strong healthy societies or it destroys them.***I think we define it different. Only because we group things differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 We were discussing judging homosexuals in the context of appearances...now we are discussing good and evil as catagories FOR judgment. They are two entirely different areas of discussion. ***** I see... rationalization. *** The first...is about whether or not we can say that if someone is doing something perverse, ***** I don't think it's perverse. **** but they do some really good things...and seem perfectly wonderful when viewed upon the outward appearances...that it justifies their perversion. **** Did I mention rationalization? **** The second...is about putting all things...into catagories of good and evil...and having the contrast of opposites to determine what is good and what is evil. **** Okay, I'm good and your evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest curvette Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by Peace@Feb 29 2004, 02:00 AM The first...is about whether or not we can say that if someone is doing something perverse, but they do some really good things...and seem perfectly wonderful when viewed upon the outward appearances...that it justifies their perversion. How can you put mutually consenting adults in the same category as some pervert who kills and rapes children? Even if you consider the first group's actions sinful, do you not see the difference between that and violating an innocent child? That is so warped. Thank heaven our laws can differentiate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 *** Thank heaven our laws can differentiate! **** Thank goodness we are not a theocracy. I'd be a dead man, and I am not even gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by curvette+Feb 29 2004, 09:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 29 2004, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 29 2004, 02:00 AM The first...is about whether or not we can say that if someone is doing something perverse, but they do some really good things...and seem perfectly wonderful when viewed upon the outward appearances...that it justifies their perversion. How can you put mutually consenting adults in the same category as some pervert who kills and rapes children? Even if you consider the first group's actions sinful, do you not see the difference between that and violating an innocent child? That is so warped. Thank heaven our laws can differentiate! I didn't . I only put the raping of a child in the catagory of evil. There are lots of levels of evil....I put the post you quoted below in an entirely different post than with the one with the child being raped. You are the one that put them together.GEEEEEEZE LOUEEEEESE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 **** There are lots of levels of evil.... ***** I thought you said it was black and white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by sgallan@Feb 29 2004, 12:58 PM **** There are lots of levels of evil.... *****I thought you said it was black and white? LOL....well there is off white, and soft white, and ....then there is pitch black, and black as night.... I understand what you are saying....so let me put out an example...if you are speaking about murder...then causing someone to die is black....but ifyou are speaking about someone who hit someone with a car because the victim ran out infront of him and didn't give him a chance to stop...then you have white...but both caused death.Having the definition of murder firmly written in the law books...establishes the black and white of causing someone to die and how...But if you have someone who was negligent...who kills someone because of negligence...but not malice of forthought...then you have an accountability...but not a level as high as murder. Then you have a different level of evil....negligence without the want to do harm ...which isn't as evil as murder with malice of forethought. Both are evil...but different levels. But still black and white as to what is 'desirable and what is not'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porterrockwell Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Why is this discussion still happening? Homosexuality is a SIN, one of the highest. It is just another way for Satan to prevent the establishment of the family. Which is the key to Eternal Glory and exhaultation of mankind. People want to drag this issue into the gray area so quickly, for one reason. In the light it is a black in white case. Im tire of the ultra-liberal, god hating, agenda driven, atheists spinning the moral perspective of an issue into something totally base and degenerative. And when we say destructive, we mean it numbs the perceptiveness to the spirit of the Lord, it draws us away from our moral foundation that is a key to progression eternally, and it allows for Satan to gain control of us, for no man can control two masters. And homosexuality is perverse! It defiles the sacred union that our Heavenly Father created for us to use as a consecration of marriage and the establishment of the family. And if you have to be religious to have a moral foundation then I pity you. I know plenty of people who are not religious and live better lives than I do, so I don't buy that argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Before we can dicuss homosexuality one important question must be answered. 1. Are humans intelligent. Though this question appears simple the answer touches the entire spectrum of complex human behavior. The question should be - can humans learn and modify their behavior based on an intelligent learning process. If humans are locked into behavior based on some preset parameters then there is no debate. We all act as we have been programmed. Murder, rape, justice, honor, lies, love and everything else are nothing but manifestations of an individual's presets. Likewise sexual behavior would be nothing more than another preset. There is nothing to debate not even the justification of our individual opinions because even that would be a preset. This theory would make any discussion meaningless. Which from most arguments that favor homosexuality seen to favior the theory of preset behaviors. If on the otherhand if humans are intelligent and capable of modifying their behavior by a learning process then the justification of what a person does, is in the merrit of their ability to learn and modify their behavior to conform to the greatest good. If a person is capable of learning then decission would be part of a learning process and therefore reasonable. Two thing I am convinced of having considered homosexual behavior: 1. Humans are intelligent and capable of modifying their behavior, including sexual behavior by various learning methods and processes. Therefore society is justified in holding individuals accountable for their sexual behavior. 2. Homosexuality is not the expression of the greatest good (sexual behavior) for society. As with all behaviors any society would be well advised to support (teach by various methods) behaviors that best support and maintain that society. I am convinced that our society can exist on a long term basis without any homosexuality. Teaching that homosexuality is not a benifical behavior does not appear to me to be something that will destroy society. I am not convinced that our society will last beyond one more generation should all of society modify their sexual behavior and become homosexuals. I am not convinced that encouraging homosexual behavior benifits society. I am convinced that not holding individuals accountable for their sexual behavior will destroy civilized society. The Traveler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porterrockwell Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Again, Traveler, nice with the reasoning, but why even reason. Once we have confirmation that there is a Heavenly Father, that Jesus Christ is our Redeemer, and that the Holy Ghost is the means by which we bear witness of these confirmations.....then the only thing to base your life on is OBEDIENCE. If the Lord says don't do it, it doesn't matter how much logic you throw out on the table...wrong is wrong and right is right. None of us are perfect and that is why we have repentance and sacrement. So in the end we need only heed one voice...THE LORDS. For instance, I have had, and still kinda do have a problem with rate "R" movies. Now, there are pg-13 movies that are much worse in content than some rated R movies. But that is just using a sin to rationalize sin, because beyond rated "R" movies we are commanded to judge by content. So I just try to do what the Lord tells us through revelation to our prophet. That is why he is here people. To me these discussions are blaitantly pointless because it makes sin seem so open ended and gray. Which it is not. Sin is sin, good is good, and we are COMMANDED to be OBEDIENT and heed the WORD OF THE PROPHET! Peace(no pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Traveler, Wow...I love your clear thinking presentation of the facts! THANK YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 PorterRockwell - Hey if that's what you believe, and how you want to live your life.... knock yourself out. But try not to tell, or legislate your beliefs, onto those of us who not believe as you do. I would NEVER insist that Gay marraiges be performed in your Temples. Nor would I EVER insist your eccalistical authorities be required to perform civil homosexual marraiges. This is part of parcel of your faith based values and though I differ in beliefs and values I nonetheless respect you to have them. But it doesn't seem to cut both ways...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Porter...I appreciate what you are saying and it is all true and good....but I think you would agree....the Lord uses good reasoning for everything He does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Why is this discussion still happening? ***** Because it is a great big world and not everybody believes as you do. *** Homosexuality is a SIN, one of the highest. It is just another way for Satan to prevent the establishment of the family. Which is the key to Eternal Glory and exhaultation of mankind.**** This is a faith thing. I don't share this belief. And I know a few LDS who would agree it's a sin but not to your level. **** People want to drag this issue into the gray area so quickly, for one reason. In the light it is a black in white case.***** Within your paradigm, and to the majority of believers in your faith, I would agree. To those outside of it..... it is indeed. ***Im tire of the ultra-liberal, god hating, agenda driven, atheists spinning the moral perspective of an issue into something totally base and degenerative.**** Welcome to America (you do live in the USA, right?). A Democratic Republic. Where a variety of groups of people have a say so in what society should be. *** And when we say destructive, we mean it numbs the perceptiveness to the spirit of the Lord, it draws us away from our moral foundation that is a key to progression eternally, and it allows for Satan to gain control of us, for no man can control two masters.***** Funny, I can see the fundamentalist Christian saying the same thing about the LDS faith and how you practice your religion. Does it make them right? **** And homosexuality is perverse! It defiles the sacred union that our Heavenly Father created for us to use as a consecration of marriage and the establishment of the family. ***** A faith thing. **** And if you have to be religious to have a moral foundation then I pity you. I know plenty of people who are not religious and live better lives than I do, so I don't buy that argument. **** Depends I suppose on what one describes as a "moral foundation" I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 *** Having the definition of murder firmly written in the law books...establishes the black and white of causing someone to die and how... **** Even with murder you have 1st degree with special circumstances, 1st degree, 2nd degree, Manslaughter, and Involuntary Manslaughter. And probably a few others as well. I was on a murder Jury once. A biker point blank shotgunned his girlfriend. Right after she said "I love you", no less. Nasty pictures of the crime scene. But it was during a rowdy argument so we convicted him of 2nd degree murder. As we should have given our instructions. The world is chock full of grey..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by sgallan@Feb 29 2004, 02:29 PM *** Having the definition of murder firmly written in the law books...establishes the black and white of causing someone to die and how... ****Even with murder you have 1st degree with special circumstances, 1st degree, 2nd degree, Manslaughter, and Involuntary Manslaughter. And probably a few others as well. I was on a murder Jury once. A biker point blank shotgunned his girlfriend. Right after she said "I love you", no less. Nasty pictures of the crime scene. But it was during a rowdy argument so we convicted him of 2nd degree murder. As we should have given our instructions. The world is chock full of grey..... I don't see different levels of evil as gray....they are either 1st degree other labels...but the only thing that changes is the degree of accountability. Not the color.It is wrong to kill. That is an absolute black issue. To what degree we are held accountable by society's rule...determines nothing different. Killing is still wrong. A black issue.The only gray is in society's determinations of accountability. Then everything becomes subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porterrockwell Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by Peace@Feb 29 2004, 03:19 PM Porter...I appreciate what you are saying and it is all true and good....but I think you would agree....the Lord uses good reasoning for everything He does. But in order for us to fully come to an understanding of HIS reasoning we must be obedient to be worthy of recieving such blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by porterrockwell+Feb 29 2004, 03:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Feb 29 2004, 03:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 29 2004, 03:19 PM Porter...I appreciate what you are saying and it is all true and good....but I think you would agree....the Lord uses good reasoning for everything He does. But in order for us to fully come to an understanding of HIS reasoning we must be obedient to be worthy of recieving such blessings. I agree...to some extent...but even Alma the younger and Paul were given blessings beyond their worthiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porterrockwell Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by sgallan@Feb 29 2004, 03:17 PM PorterRockwell -Hey if that's what you believe, and how you want to live your life.... knock yourself out. But try not to tell, or legislate your beliefs, onto those of us who not believe as you do. We differ in beliefs and values I nonetheless respect you to have them. But it doesn't seem to cut both ways...... For starters we are in an LDS forum, I will expound as I have been instructed to. You don't let the word of God rest on your tongue. Secondly, I DON'T respect ignorant, malicious, absent-minded beliefs...for that you are right. Now, i respect that you exercise your agency, but not the result of it. There is a difference. I have the truth of the Restored Gospel and the Plan of Salvation, as do the others on this board who are LDS. Regardless of what you or any other non-believer "think" or "say" that does not change the fact that we are the only true church and God's Kingdom on Earth. I will express my beliefs whenever I feel impressed to do so, and I will stand up for and defend my beliefs in the same manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Originally posted by porterrockwell@Feb 29 2004, 03:20 PM I will express my beliefs whenever I feel impressed to do so, and I will stand up for and defend my beliefs in the same manner. It is good to stand up and be counted to speak one's mind...with concern and understanding for one's audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 **** For starters we are in an LDS forum, I will expound as I have been instructed to.**** Cool. But I am still technically LDS so I will disagree. And I know other active LDS who disagree with your specific take as well. **** You don't let the word of God rest on your tongue.**** True. I see no value. Often I see just the opposite. Mt wife finds some value..... but no longer your specific version. Heck, she probably wouldn't even be welcome in your Ward if most think as you do. You don't like her "type". **** Secondly, I DON'T respect ignorant, malicious, absent-minded beliefs...for that you are right. ***** And this is why I said the above. Unless a person is conservative (not talking politics) you would no doubt want them to leave your Ward and Stake. Hey, a standing offer though...... if I am so insulting to you; I am Scott Gallan, my wife is Denise, and the kid is Reni (eight now but never baptised). The Ward is Parker. The Bishop is Penn. The SP is LEVI. And the Stake is Lake Havasu City. I have a lot of stuff I have written (especially at Beliefnet). Feel free to out me. *** Now, i respect that you exercise your agency, but not the result of it. There is a difference. I have the truth of the Restored Gospel and the Plan of Salvation, as do the others on this board who are LDS. Regardless of what you or any other non-believer "think" or "say" that does not change the fact that we are the only true church and God's Kingdom on Earth. I will express my beliefs whenever I feel impressed to do so, and I will stand up for and defend my beliefs in the same manner. ***** I don't mind you saying that. Heck, they all say it. It's when they try to import those beliefs that things get problematic. Religions have done some pretty horrific things in the name of "true" gods over the years, and even now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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