Paul's "thorn in the flesh" (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) concerns

[Superbaldguy]

I have studied this quote many times and have done some research on it, but I am still a bit perplexed and have questions:

(1) Do WE all have this affliction to some degree? Like you, I have a serious weakness which I am struggling with at any given time; despite my best efforts and sincere repentance, I tend to fall back into committing the same sin. I may fall off the horse but am determined to get back in the saddle.

(2) The "thorn" is given to us/me for making sure we stay dependent on the Lord. Does this necessarily have to do totally with sin? Could it be serious health issues or financial woes, or any other societal ill?

(3) Paul describes the "messenger from Satan" in these passages. My confusion is if the Lord allows Satan to intentionally tempt and test us or if there may be some sort of translation error in this passage. I know this congers up the question of agency and that in the Garden of Eden, our hated foe was trying to tempt its inhabitants to transgress. Is the source of ALL temptations from the adversary?

Thoughts?

[ryanh]

It is my opinion that not everyone does have a personal "thorn". I believe that the lack of humbling reminder is precisely the "trial" that some must face in this life - to not have a continual reminder of their dependence on the Lord and still be tried to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord commands them. Such is a reason one may give abundant thanks for that which appears to be a weakness, but which makes us strong.

From what I have observed in myself and others, I do believe, "thorns" can be based in mental, physical, spiritual, or a some combination thereof. And they most certainly do not have to be sin-centric. Physical handicaps or speech impediments may comprise the thorn. (Moses and Enoch's lamentations in regards to lack of speech capabilities come to mind as potential thorns for them). Yet for others, constant temptation (Nephi's lamentations come to mind on this one) may be what they view as a "thorn" continually pricking them to remembrance. Clinical depression would be one "thorn" that could be pointed to with physical handicap roots, which is in no way connected with a desire to sin, but which holds a person back, and leads them to dependence on the Lord.

Edited September 22, 2010 by ryanh

[Superbaldguy]

Interesting - so, are my Gethsemanes considered as "thorns in my side" or can these issues be fully repented from with more work? I'll have to pray about that question. Paul so eloquently discusses he doctrine of grace in so many of his messages, just wondering if this is one of them.........

[EandLDOW]

1. We all have weaknesses to help us turn to the Lord. Just not necessarily the same weakness.

2. Could be anything, or combination or series of things, that help us recognize our reliance on Christ to get through this life successfully.

3. The Lord does allow Satan to try or tempt us, refer to Job for example. But not all temptations come from him, some, perhaps many, come from our own fallen mortal condition, seeking after riches, power, pride, vanity, etc.

Just my thoughts.

[prisonchaplain]

The most common understanding of Paul's thorn in the flesh is that it was a physical affliction. What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

[Superbaldguy]

I think it would be too easy to use the "thorn" excuse for unrepented sins that keep dogging us, repeating them over and over unless you have exhausted all your efforts. I guess that is the crux of the doctrine of grace - knowing when you have done your very best and can do no better, the enabling power of the Atonement can fill in the gaps.

[Dravin]

The most common understanding of Paul's thorn in the flesh is that it was a physical affliction. What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

All that says is that it was probably physical but it doesn't explain why they conclude that. I realize it's a Q&A set-up not a argumentative paper though so it isn't a surprise that it doesn't. Can you explain in your own words why it was probably physical? Or were you just showing us that the thought is out there?

I've always linked that verse to Ether 12:27 myself and figured it for general weaknesses. Of course I don't have any great physical weaknesses so it's possible I'm subcounciously likening the scriptures to myself.

[prisonchaplain]

I've often heard that it was probably an eye condition. We also know that Paul was not the smoothest orator. The purpose of the affliction was to help him stay humble and submitted to God. I don't see God allowing demons to harrass his servants long-term, and I doubt that a particular temptation to sin would be one of God's devices. Physical ailmants, on the other hand, are nearly always humbling. Even the simple cold, with our stuffy heads, draining noses, and rough-sounding voices, keep us from feeling on-top and at our best.

You are right, though Dravin, that we simply do not have enough information to say conclusively what the thorn was. You might be interested to know that many who believe in divine healing insist that it could not have been physical, since we have "a right" to healing.

[JohnnyRudick]

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to

glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years

ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the

body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the

third heaven.

I think this was Paul.

Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also

are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye

should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made

heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

Acts 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in

their own ways

And I believe this happened when some years before,

maybe Fourteen, an event in in one of the cities of Lycaonia caused some to stone him.

Acts 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and

Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew

him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

I believe he was and this is the event he was

shone visions of God and His mysteries.

He did not fully recover I think.

Just a thought.

[Dravin]

You are right, though Dravin, that we simply do not have enough information to say conclusively what the thorn was. You might be interested to know that many who believe in divine healing insist that it could not have been physical, since we have "a right" to healing.

I guess the idea is that he saught the Lord, was told no three times and since the Lord never would have decline a physical healing it must be non-physical? I think the great thing about all this is that physical or not it's a great lesson (of course I am heavily influenced by Ether 12:27) that we need to be humble.

[Daniel2020]

As state above, most scholars believe Paul had some sort of physical problem Paul referred to it a weakness and also as an infirmity. Some believe it was vision related. The LDS scholar Sidney B. Sperry speculated it was malaria.

[mordorbund]

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Every time I read this, I'm convinced Paul had a mission companion he couldn't get along with.


(the little one's Paul) Edited September 23, 2010 by mordorbund

[Superbaldguy]

It's interesting that Paul asked the Lord three times to remove this weakness.

From what I have been able to gather from study, some weaknesses will always be there to torment us and, more importantly, make us always dependent on the Lord to help us get through life. Does that make the weakness a "thorn"?

There is not a sin or shortcoming that can't be overcome or forgiven (save murder and denying the Holy Ghost), but it appears that all of us cannot in this mortal sphere put behind us EVERYTHING that dogs us, despite our best efforts.

Of course, this is where the Atonement is squarely applied and the enabling power is so desperately needed.

This does not excuse us from stopping to try to better ourselves and we still need to keep up the fight against our demons, the Lord expects us and commands us to do so. If we fall off the horse, we are expected to try to get back up in the saddle and carry on.

[AandA]

Maybe there was some health issues there but i don't tend to think that that was the underlying problem.

There is nothing temporal that is not spiritual.

Joseph Smith was recorded as saying, "I have a subtle devil to deal with."

The new testament also records an interesting verse.. there is a war in our "members".

I don't think it out of the realm of possibility that everyone is given that one subtle devil to deal with.

[Superbaldguy]

Oh, no doubt we have our own personal demons and devils to fight - addictions, health failures, learning disabilities - the list is endless. We simply cannot give up the fight to overcome them.

[curtishouse]

When it came to the thorn in the flesh, I was biased and thought he had Epilepsy because I do as well. I guess we can just all identify with Paul because we all have our own.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have studied this quote many times and have done some research on it, but I am still a bit perplexed and have questions:

(1) Do WE all have this affliction to some degree? Like you, I have a serious weakness which I am struggling with at any given time; despite my best efforts and sincere repentance, I tend to fall back into committing the same sin. I may fall off the horse but am determined to get back in the saddle.

(2) The "thorn" is given to us/me for making sure we stay dependent on the Lord. Does this necessarily have to do totally with sin? Could it be serious health issues or financial woes, or any other societal ill?

(3) Paul describes the "messenger from Satan" in these passages. My confusion is if the Lord allows Satan to intentionally tempt and test us or if there may be some sort of translation error in this passage. I know this congers up the question of agency and that in the Garden of Eden, our hated foe was trying to tempt its inhabitants to transgress. Is the source of ALL temptations from the adversary?

Thoughts?

I would propose that the our earthly, corrupted flesh that we are born with in this life is the thorn, and therefore it is a "thorn in the flesh". I think Paul would be made more aware of this walking around with someone who has a near perfect body, one that can fast for 40 days and can not fall asleep and endure what it did in the garden of Gethsemane. In comparison to that kind of body, we all have "thorny" bodies. There are areas in the brain that are devoted to gluttony, sexual drives, anger, sleep, etc. The natural man is an enemy to God. We all have to learn how to deal with that thorn and put off the natural man and focus on spiritual influences. If we did nothing the natural man would win out. So, the body becomes the thorn that has to constantly, daily, be overcome. It would be nice to walk around with a body that is less driven by Telestial, survival instincts and tendencies.

[Superbaldguy]

Excellent comment, my old body is easily seen to me as a big thorn=)

Mortality is all about how we deal with our "natural man" tendencies, isn't it? We will not be given the chance to be free from them all, but we can enjoy a greater spiritual experience during our mortal sojourn if we truly try our best to get better.

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