Transgender

[Katie77584]

I would hate to have to figure out what steps it would take to gain priesthood. It's hard enough as it is.

Not being raised in the LDS church I only had one sister, but she was the first female born in our family for generations that is if you don't count me which of course no one in my family does.

[annewandering]

If you feel you are female then it doesnt make sense to pursue the priesthood. Not to me anyway. Maybe to others it does. That is certainly something for someone higher up in authority to decide. By the way the higher authorities are called General Authorities or GA for those that like shorthand.

You just have to do the best you can. :) I see no reason for you to not join the church if you believe the church is true. Being transgender really is just a side issue even if it is a difficult one. The basics of faith repentance and baptism are still there. i am not implying you need to repent of transgender. You do have to deal with it but its hard to see why you would have to repent of anything to do strictly with that issue.

I do think that you are going to have questions come up in your life that no one is going to have answers to. You might get answers in prayer for your own benefit but mostly I suspect you are just going to have to be patient. If you do join the church be sure to ask for a patriarchal blessing. That might be a comfort to you.

[Katie77584]

Nooooo!!!!! you said the bad word. PATIENT, I'm truly a modern person in that respect. I hate waiting for anything.

Yeah I can't see why a transgender person (going my direction) would go after the priesthood unless they were just there trying to play a game with people.

thanks for all the good advice. I've wondered about the patriarchal blessing, but I figured I should probably work on being baptized before I put alot of thought into that one.

[annewandering]

to me you sound very patient. We can hate waiting and still be patient!!!!

:) so have you put in a request to the proper people for a baptism or not ready for that yet?

[Suzie]

[quote name=Katie77584;632765 I haven't had the surgery' date=' but I have no intention of going back to playing the male role that tormented me for so long.

Are you planning to do it? If you are not, then there is no reason why you cannot be baptized.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Suzie

[Katie77584]

To be honest at this point while I still dislike that um area (I'll try to be G rated) it is far less important to me. I would love to get baptized now. I'm just waiting on enough people to say that I am no threat or something. The missionaries have brought several men from the ward to meet me the last one being the mission president and the next to be the bishop. So I'm hopeing that since he's supposed to have the gift of discernment he can give me approval or atleast stop all the trouble with the missionaries. Seems like every week they change there mind about if they can come to my house.

From what I hear I'll probably end up having to request permission from the first presidency though and I have no idea how long that will take. Sounds like something that would take a while though.

[annewandering]

To be honest at this point while I still dislike that um area (I'll try to be G rated) it is far less important to me. I would love to get baptized now. I'm just waiting on enough people to say that I am no threat or something. The missionaries have brought several men from the ward to meet me the last one being the mission president and the next to be the bishop. So I'm hopeing that since he's supposed to have the gift of discernment he can give me approval or atleast stop all the trouble with the missionaries. Seems like every week they change there mind about if they can come to my house.

From what I hear I'll probably end up having to request permission from the first presidency though and I have no idea how long that will take. Sounds like something that would take a while though.

ahhh the missionary problem. Dang we had that one happen once and we are members. We were told that they could not go into homes with mentally ill people in it. My husband might have a mental illness but he is not dangerous. usually. lol j/k

That can certainly complicate things. I doubt that you are mentally ill so thats probably why there is confusion. Maybe you can met at the church?

[Suzie]

From what I hear I'll probably end up having to request permission from the first presidency though and I have no idea how long that will take. Sounds like something that would take a while though.

Approval is requested if you plan to do the elective surgery or if you had the operation already and you are seeking baptism in which case you will need to be interviewed by the mission president who needs the approval of the first presidency. If after being baptized, you choose to go through the operation, you will possibly face Church discipline. So basically, I don't think there is anything about your transgender aspect right now that is stopping you from being baptized (again, if you are not seeking the operation).

[Katie77584]

Lol this is all to complicated for me. I wish the church had a step by step process that you could just check off. The thing is while some of this sounds like the church every different person seems to have a different awnser. I'm just hopeing that the bishop will set the record straight and give me what he expects of me. If not I guess next up is the stake president. Should have thought of that a week ago when he was in the area.

Anyways only time will tell the only question is how much time.

[Dravin]

I didn't have a problem with you at first. But now that I know you're left handed.....

Repent, o ye sinner, of your left-handedness!

Left handed people are just so... so... sinister!

[giantCplus]

When I had posted earlier on page 4, I was angry and would have done anything to transition. I felt all alone and that there was nothing for me in the church. I was reaching out. I them went to see my bishop and shared with him everything about my Gender identity disorder. What I found was a compassionate caring man that wanted to do everything in his power to help. I found acceptance, understanding and guidance in the church. I have chosen not to transition but to remain as a male in the church. Not that I was compelled by my bishop, but that my faith in my Heavenly Father, and in my Savoir and his atonement. I know that my Heavenly Father is mindful of me and knows my pain. He will never give me a trial that is too great for me to bear. I know that if I put my trust in him and exercise my faith, and do everything in my power to live as he would have me; he will lighten my burden. I am not saying this as an umbrella solution for everyone, I am saying this as a solution for me; as personal revelation I have received. I am not judging or saying anything against anyone that has chosen to transition. I respect those who have made the choice to do so; they are in for a hard life. People will not understand. And on the flip side I am in for a hard life by making the decision not to transition. I am continually raging an internal battle. There are some days that I would almost do anything to experience the joys of motherhood. And I am tempted to abandon the battle and give up. It is my faith that keeps me going. The course that I have chosen is not for everyone, and the path that others follow is not for everyone. Every person that feels this way is different, and I do believe that the church handles every case as a case by case situation.

President David O. McKay said: "Every person who lives in this world wields an influence, weather for good or for evil. It is not what he says alone; it is not alone what he does. It is what he is. . . . Every person radiates what he or she really is. . . . It is what we are and what we radiate that affects the people around us." (Man May Know for Himself, 108)

[HEthePrimate]

I can’t quote the Church Handbook of Instructions, right?

Forgive my ignorance, but why wouldn't you be able to quote the CHI? It seems to me that under copyright law, this would be considered "fair use."

[rameumptom]

Katie,

I don't think it is an issue of unfairly judging people (although some do so). In the instance of the Church, it has standards provided by God. A person can choose to follow those standards or not. There is no coercion involved.

Transgender, gay, lesbian, etc., are all welcome to join a religion that fits their lifestyle. Or they can choose to make difficult changes in life and follow the standards required to be LDS.

I grew up in a family of alcoholics. I have no doubt I have the gene for alcoholism. That said, I consciously choose to not drink alcohol, even though the temptation and desire is always there, because following the standard given by God through modern prophets is more important to me.

We can choose to do difficult things, even things that seem to go against our very nature. We have to decide whether the promises offered are worth the price of the sacrifice. For me, not drinking is definitely worth receiving the blessings of being LDS. For many others, they choose to give in to their nature and drink, etc.

It isn't a judgment issue, but an issue of standards having been set, and each individual having to decide whether he/she wishes to follow that standard.

The Book of Mormon actually references this somewhat. We are told that the "natural man is an enemy to God", and that such a person separates him/herself from God by following the natural desire; unless that person casts off the natural man and becomes one who focuses on the spiritual side, instead. (Mosiah 3:19). The question is not whether we are born a certain way, but whether we choose to cast off our physical nature and take upon ourselves our spiritual nature.

[giantCplus]

rameumptom,

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I don’t think you fully understand the issue you are discussing here. Are you transgender? Or I prefer to go by Gender Identity Disorder (GID). Being GID is a life long curse that will never go away. The desire or impulse of a GID is just as strong if not stronger than an addiction. The difference; we did not choose this like an addict chooses to partake in a substance. We are borne with this and it will never go away. No amount of abstaining will lessen the want, there is nothing we can take that will feed the desire, and there is nothing we can do to make it go away. It is like being stuck in withdrawal forever with this uncontrolled passion our whole life. The only way out is Gender reassignment surgery, or death. So let me ask you this; do you think about killing yourself if you do not get a drink of alcohol? I know someone earlier said something about killing oneself, but I think it necessary to illustrate what those of us are going through.

I understand what you are saying about the church standards and I do agree with you, but I have grown up in the church and fully understand them, and that is why I have decided not to transition. But for someone like Katie with GID that did not grow up in the church, what you are asking her to do is give up that very part of her soul that makes her who she is. Discussing the church standard and where she fit is between her and her Bishop and other priesthood leader. Through prayer, guidance (thorough proper priesthood authority) and personal revelation she can receive answers to her question and even determine the gender of her spirit. This is not something we can discuss here; it is a matter between those with GID and the Lord.

Sorry if I cam across harsh or angry, that was not my intention. I only understand far too well what Katie is going through. Not to long ago I was ready to leave the church in order to transition.

Your friend in Zion,

[Katie77584]

Wow thank you for that. I don't beleave I've ever auctually seen someone succeed in describing what it's like to have GID.

[Spartan117]

Other than those two I really don't care to respond to someone that takes a few words twists them out of context and throws them back in my face. When you have something to say other than that I would love to hear it.

That was not my intention.

I've actually thought a lot about this over the last few days. I don't know if you read my post from way early on in this thread or not. But in it, I talk about my friend and his son, and how earlier this year his son legally became his daughter. I've met a few people who were transgender, but I've never actually known someone who was until my friend and his daughter. I was talking with a mutual friend, he told me that our friends son was now officially his daughter. She started hormone therapy at the end of last year, and earlier this year, she did whatever the government required to be legally identified as female, and changed her name.

When I first heard about her transition, I was mighty surprised. Then I didn't care. I don't mean that in a heartless, thoughtless way, I mean that this is obviously who she is and what makes her happy. So good for her. I found out that she had started a blog right before she started hormone therapy. She was diligent in updating it too, up until her name change. I read the whole thing. I read about her first time going out in girl mode, all the times she didn't pass and the cruelty that usually went along with that, even her first time shaving her legs.

In the end I didn't have any better of an understanding about what transgender is, but I know that this girl knew beyond anything that she had ever known that this is what would make her happy. This wasn't some "phase" she was going through, this was who she was. And she went through hell to realize that. And that's just the last year that I read about in a blog, I can't imagine the years leading up her transition.

So I've thought about this a lot over the last few days. Ever since you kicked in the door and accused everyone of saying transgender was a mental disorder. And that transgender people were unworthy of Heavenly Fathers love, and lots of other things that I'm fairly certain were never said but you were sure offended by. I thought you were being over-dramatic so I responded by being overly sarcastic. Whatever the case was, you were clearly upset. And I should have been sympathetic to that when I responded to you and I wasn't. I apologize. I forget that this can be a really sensitive subject for some people and I should be respectful of that.

[RMGuy]

Spartan,

That was a great post. I think that the way you just responded is how I expect the Savior would have us respond. Do we try to understand, do we try to empathise, really empathise, or not. Do we take responsibility for our actions when what we have said, or done, or thought caused pain or hurt? Or are we more concerned with being right than with what is right?

Thank you for being an example.

-RM

[Katie77584]

Thank you spartan. I'm sorry if I was overly dramatic at the time. I was just upset about some of the things I had read. I shouldn't have gone off. It's just hard for me to seperate that this church isn't the church that I grew up in sometimes. I'm happy to hear about your friends daughter I hope that everything is going well for her. It sounds like she's further along than I am but not far so I know how hard it can be.

[rameumptom]

I have discussed gender issues with many people I know who have various genetic issues. I don't think a transgender, GID, or whatever you wish to call it, has anything on a person with an innate desire for anything else. It is part and parcel of the natural man each of us is born with. I know people who believe they cannot live without their drugs. I've known people neglect or leave family for sex, video games, gambling, and many other things.

If we are to grant to each sexual identity its own due, what would you have us do with those who are child molesters? Some are so GID, that they can only find satisfaction and attraction with certain ages of children. I work in the Indiana prison system, and so deal with various people with sexual issues. One man was only interested in 3 year olds. Once one of his victims hit 4 years of age, he wasn't interested in them any more. Should we just accept that as a norm? How about those who are attracted to animals, etc? Where do we draw the line between normal and abnormal?

So, each of us is born with fleshly desires. But that is not our spirit. Each of us has a choice to either follow the genetic desires of the flesh, or to abstain and follow the Spirit. It is not a sin to have such feelings, only to act upon them, because we are then neglecting the spirit, and focusing on the desires of the flesh. Yet, the flesh is only one part of us.

I believe that when we get to the other side, our spirits will have control over the flesh. At that time, we will see that our fleshly natural man desires were not the giant issues we now do think they are. Yes, they are very hard, but they are manageable for most. And if they are not, then God will take that into consideration when he judges us in the last day.

I do not have a problem with a person who has attractions or desires. But the Church is allowed to have standards, and expect people's behaviors to abide within those standards, even if they continue with issues of the natural man.

[Katie77584]

Well I'm not suddgesting that the church doesn't have the right to set its own standards. Not only would I not agree with it. I would hate to see the day that it didn't have that right.

That however doesn't make it hurt any less to be rejected. The problem is auctually kinda funny (now that I've had time to get over it). I truly think the church is admirable for not changeing despite political pressures.

Anyways thanks for the responce.

[giantCplus]

rameumptom,

You failed to see the two points that I made.

1. Being GID is not a choice, it is a curse or blessing depending on how you look at it. We did not choose to partake in being GID Transgender or intersex, we are born with it. Not like an Alcoholic chooses to take the first drink that leads to the addiction. Or the drug user chooses to take drugs for the first time. Or for any other addiction like; “sex, video games, gambling, and many other things.” Are you trying to lump us in with child molesters and other sexual predators? Does a pedophile lie in bed at the tender age of 3 and fantasize of the victims they will have? I don’t think so. When I was three I laid awake at night wishing and wanting so bad to be a girl and wondering why I was not. What you are talking about is a result of a choice that leads them down a cretin path. My feet where firmly planted upon my path long before I was borne. I believe that I was aware of this trial of mine in the pre-existence.

2. Discussing some ones worthiness to join the church is strictly between them and their priesthood authorities. It is not for any of us to judge. That is how you scare new and prospective members away. You said “We can choose to do difficult things, even things that seem to go against our very nature. We have to decide whether the promises offered are worth the price of the sacrifice.” Being a new or prospective member they may not fully understand what the promises are, they may only see the sacrifice and the fact that they have to give up that part of them that makes them who they are. And it is not like giving up smoking or alcohol or some other addiction that defines them. It is giving up something that they have carried all their lives. That has to be done as guided by the spirit.

All I ask is that those who don’t have GID please show a little more discretion. You would not tell someone over weight that they need a diet. Unless you have felt the overwhelming, sometimes overpowering desire that I carry, and had it your whole life, you cannot fathom the weight of this trial I bear, or any other GID. Do not tell someone that they are a natural man and then to quote, A "natural man is an enemy to God". You say that you are from a family of alcoholics and you have that gene. I don’t dispute that. But if you have not had alcohol and felt the pull of an addiction, you can not even begin to comprehend the pull of GID.

Now to finish my long winded reply. I am not disputing the truth of what you are saying. I agree with you. I am disputing your tact.

[UtahUte]

The love of Christ is all encompassing and if properly sought after has the power heal no matter how deep your anguish. That being said the way to seek his love and his all powerful redemption is to obey his commandments. I do not try or mean to judge you, but from your post you said that something to the effect that you want to de-couple your desire to be female from the feeling that it is a sin. The light of christ is a gift to all men. The feeling of it being a sin is a good indication that it is. The only way to get rid of that feeling is to totally cut yourself off from the spirit in willful and knowing disobedience to the point that your spirit is so deadened you can ignore the spirit completely. I do not know how these things will be worked out by the Judgement of God. It so far has not been revealed to us. What is known is the promptings of the spirit to know when we are in the right or wrong. The natural man is an enemy to god and to seek the desires of the natural man puts us at opposition to God. There can be NO true joy, when we are at opposition with God. There is intentional confusion caused by Lucifer between pleasure and joy. We can have sinful mortal pleasure but we can't have true lasting joy at the same time. Only when we align ourselves to the will of God can be find joy. As far as the priesthood, there are many references to the consequences of rejecting the priesthood after it having been properly and righteously ordained. There are also consequences for males who fail to make themselves worthy to be ordained. This is not an easy issue to deal with. I am a Biology major and I know how the processes of sex assignment in procreation work. I do not know however how these physical mechanisms work in the plan of Salvation. There is room for error and imperfection in this world as much as diseases are genetic. What can't be explained is that we are spiritual beings having a mortal experience. We always have our agency, and if we are giving a flawed body we are to bear that trial. No mortal trial gives us excuse to disobey Gods commandments. Satan wants us to justify our sins so that we continue in them to our damnation. Just as we do not choose if we are to endure physical deformity sever or minor, mental illness or impairment cross gender feelings can be seen as a trial. Jealousy, resentment and the other host of sins mentioned are a clear sign that what is desired is not of God. We can know if things are of God when they lead us to righteousness and a desire to be closer to God and more like him. I struggle with intense addictive feelings that I will bear my whole life. That is not an excuse for me to give in. There is nothing that the power of God can't help with. There are also no trials given to us that we cannot bear, and that includes ones that we need can't face on our own and must have Gods help. He wants us to turn to him so that we can get to know him. If your trial is to be a woman in a mans body, then it is the only refining fire hot enough to soften you sufficiently that God can mold you into being worthy of eternal exhaltation. Do not shrink from the task. Seek God sincerely and ask to have your animosity towards God softened enough to start you on the path to repentance. Then and only then, when you have progressed far enough to Gods satisfaction will he take the pain away and allow you to have joy in your life.

[giantCplus]

If you are referring to my previous post, let me first of all say thank you for your words, I was merely making a point; two point actually. The first one was that most people can’t even begin to comprehend what it is like the have GID, or be transgender. My comparing GID to an addiction was not intended as an excuse, it was to illustrate and help people understand the strength of the trial what we face every day. For myself I am planning on staying the way I am, and facing my trials head on. I agree with you and what you are saying because I grew up in the church and understand the principles of the gospel and have a testimony. For my other point; when you are quoting church doctrine and telling someone with GID that it is ok the feel that way but it is a sin to act upon it. It needs to be done with tact. Like I said before; you would not tell someone who is over weight that they need to go on a diet. They are not living the word of wisdom. That is rude and tactless, and chances are they are sensitive about their weight. Worthiness to join the church and what is acceptable within the church should be left up to the individual and their bishop. Through prayer the lord will direct them in an appropriate manner. Each case is handled case by case. No two people are the same. It is not our place to discuss worthiness here, all we will do is scare prospective or new members away. This forum I think was intended as a place for people to ask questions and get answers. Not debate doctrine on a topic that very little has been revealed. The spirit will not stay when there is contention, even in a place like this. Let’s keep this forum a place where someone can feel comfortable asking questions.

[annewandering]

Someday we will know. I still feel that there can be genetic goofs so bad that a persons body doesnt even come close to matching their spirit gender. It would be interesting to see genetic stats on the 'normality' of transgendered people and no doubt we will soon if we dont have them already. Maybe then we would know a bit more to base arguments on. :)

[giantCplus]

There is some interesting information at GID.info | Gender Identity Disorder Informationto think about.