Transgender


GaySaint
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I’ve had a question about this for a long time.

I can’t quote the Church Handbook of Instructions, right?

Ok, as I understand it, a person who undergoes an elective transsexual operation as a member of the church is excommunicated.

But I also understand that persons who have already undergone an elective transsexual operation may be baptized if they are otherwise found worthy in an interview with the mission president or other priesthood leader assigned (I’m assuming this means area authority, or whoever would be needed to grant such permission).

I also understand that this person will not be able to get a temple recommend, or hold the priesthood regardless of gender at birth or current gender expression.

But what about marriage? Is this person allowed to marry and does the church recognize that marriage (civilly - the same as they would recognize any civil marriage)? Could that person’s spouse get a temple recommend? If they consummate the marriage, is it still considered sinful like it would be if a married same-sex couple did?

Now before anyone worries, I am NOT considering any sort of operation, haha – I’m just curious as to how this all fits together, and if anyone knows the way the doctrine or policy currently leans in this regard.

If they can get baptised I don't see why they couldn't get married.

don't know for sure tho.

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I hate to say it, but I don't know why a transgendered person would want to join the LDS church, or a true hermaphodite for that matter. After all, the issue with transgendered is that their brains were wired differently, and no amount of therapy helps. For those who get the surgery, it's the only option other than suicide that helps. What those people need is real compassion, not judgment.

For the record, I was born heterosexual, and a female and I'm still a female.

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I have only met one person who was a woman who had a sex change to be a guy. Thing is, she already has most of the male parts on her so it was obvious to change. I did not know this and confused this person to be a woman. She was a calm person who had no ill intent in changing but had to.

In the womb, all fetusus start out as female. It is latter in the gestation cycle, that the male hormones are introduced if it is to be a male. But genetics can be cross altered under rare case and as such, a fetus can be both male and female at the same time.

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  • 3 months later...

Hi every one. I found this thread in a google search and figured I might weigh in on this subject matter. Even though the thread is rather old I thought why not.

First of all I am LDS and have been one for a long time. Second of all I am a Male to Female member.

Here are my core beliefs. The church or any church for that matter has the right to associate with any one they so choose...or reject who ever they choose.

God does not make mistakes. However this is an imperfect world and is part of the test. Nature by design is not perfect and nor is man. In todays world there are all kinds of chemicals and drugs and other hormones in the environment. Both natural and man made.

My condition was the result of a man made drug. It was something given to my mother during the pregnancy that caused this to happen. I will not give the drugs name for privacy reasons that some of you may not understand but I have my reasons. However I can tell you this it caused what is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. In other words I was not masculinizing normally.

My journey in this life is certainly a trial. My mother knew from a very early age that there was something terribly wrong with my gender expression and tried every thing in her power to convince me to be more male like. From personal threats to condemnation from God above and even excommunication from the church.

It forced me into her desired role. Un-happiness ensued and some life altering mistakes were made as a result. When she finally came clean with what was really going on later in my life things started to make sense.

I even came out to the church at one point. First speaking to my new Bishop and he scratched his head and deferred me to the stake presidency. I met with him for a year. In that entire time I did not experience any of the prophetic condemnation my mother told me would happen. In fact I was met with love and concern for my well being.

Now I am not inclined to reveal what or if I hold callings or what I was allowed to do in church. But suffice it to say that these situations are handled in very individual ways. I had 3 bishops who knew my situation and of the 3 only one was perplexed. The other two were accepting and the stake president became like a Dad to me.

My feeling is this, the church is aware that cases like mine exist. But they are performing a balancing act. The general membership is not ready to accept some like me with open arms. Had this occurred in an old ward where every one thought of me as an effeminate male before, I can guarantee there would have been a problem. The bishop in that case may have had to dismiss me or excommunicate me for the greater good. I would not want to be the bishop having to deal with the sisters of the church knocking down my door.

As you can probably gather I look and sound female. There is nothing garish about my appearance and if any of you encountered me at church not a single one of you would know the difference.

For me, this purely a matter of identity and I am square with heavenly father and if asked temple questions today I would be able to affirm yes that I am in good standing.

Now, am I allowed to go to the temple? The answer is no. I feel that this is a way to keep the church safe because what if some one found out and made a fiasco out of it? One day I will be able to go to the temple. I was affirmed of that in a blessing...but not now. And some thing else was told to me in a blessing that I hold close to my heart and has helped me on this journey.

Being like this sure has given me a unique way of observing life.

The Lord has different plans for me.

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Amazing story, Perigon. I'm glad that you had some very accepting and loving leaders who handled your situation with care, tact, and just plain concern and committed to help and have the right answers for you.

First off, if I may ask, what were you googling to run across this? Second, I would have liked to be in your ward. You sound like an amazingly grounded person with a deep abiding faith that helped you conquer all. I would have loved to watch you set the example of self acknowledgment, faith and acceptance.

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I used "Transsexual Mormon" in google. I do that from time to time to see if there are others like me. Typically I find embittered people with or with out good reason.

The irony is that the members of my ward do not know my personal life experience only the Bishop does. So there is no outward Self Acknowledgment, faith and acceptance to watch that has come from my journey. It is a very private journey. A very sacred one.

I once asked why I was not being excommunicated and I was told that it was my attitude and approach that set the tone. When I first met with my church leaders over this I was ready and willing to accept what ever they decided but I was not going to deny my identity. I was at complete peace.

Some people think they should barge into a bishops office and demand what ever changes they think should be made and I will tell that person....that is the wrong approach.

As far as I am concerned this is an individual spiritual matter and should be handled by the bishops and stake presidents on a personal level. Not an across the board judgement or condemnation of an entire group. That is why I will not reveal certain key things in these postings because I do not want some one else to use my truth as theirs to avoid discipline. If that makes sense.

And ultimatly that is why Gender Reassignment surgery does not always = excommunication.

I for one do believe there are "transsexuals" out there who have no business being on this journey...for example one person once was asked how long have you felt this way? The trans person was in "her" 40's and she said..."Oh for the last 4 years". That is a HUGE red flag that this is a mental health issue and possibly mid-life crisis.

This view is not popular in the trans community and I have personally distanced my self from those groups because it is often caustic toward religious beliefs.

On a side note one individual who happened to already be anti-mormon (ex member) found out about me and used my journey as an excuse to hate the church even more. That makes me sad that any one would lose their faith in the church over my situation.

I hope those who read this do not feel like he did and start doubting your faith.

Edited by Perigon
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While I'm not transgendered by any means, like yourself, the scope and breadth of my situation is only known to church leadership and one other person, whom I have found to be able to trust implicitly. And while I read your comments about how this is a personal, spiritual journey, I'm reminded of my own and how I hold very close the journey I've been and am still on, seeing it as much too sacred to share everything, especially specifics; understanding that it is for my education and edification, not for others. To this end, I need to apologize for my comment and for asking. I should know better.

I will point out that what you have shared has added to the answer of the argument of what many of the people who come onto this forum ask: should I talk to my Bishop or Stake President about such and such. The answer has always been "if you need to ask, then do it." I can only think of two or three actions that can be considered "automatic excommunication." For the rest, it all depends. You prayed and gained a firm answer as to what you needed to do. You're situation may or may not be unique. But it is so important, as I have found out in my own situation, to have faith that the Church will not only do what is appropriate for itself, as an organization, but what is appropriate for the individual, as a child of God.

The phrase "Faith precedes the miracle" end up not to be a trite saying at all.

And thank you for sharing. It is much appreciated.

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Thank you both. I would have enjoyed your company for sure. But really I am nothing special. I will tell you this I must have been surprised to learn what my mission was on earth. I bet I said something along the lines of..."You have got to be joking!...Really?"

This journey is not one I wish on any one. It is full of heartache and rejection. There have been days and nights where I have been tears over this and thought why me? And you would think it would get easier with the knowledge that this was drug induced, but in some ways just thinking I was crazy all these years was easier.

I had to learn to forgive my mother because of her fear this went on for far too long. I know she did the best with what she knew at the time. Before she passed away she told a close family friend her one regret was taking that drug while pregnant with me. I did not learn of this regret until she was gone. It made me sad she felt that way. The fact is she took that drug under doctors orders and it was not her fault.

She was not a member of the church but before she died she asked me to have her work done in the temple. I could not personally perform the work for her so I had some one close to me do the work. Hopefully she found peace.

Ultimately the question is...why not me?

By the way...that drug I am describing was banned a few years after my birth. It was found to be a mutagen endocrine disruptor in the same class as thalidomide which caused severe birth defects and the real sad part is the scientist behind the manufacture of the drug KNEW what it was doing for years but did not care as long as they made money selling it to unsuspecting doctors. Talk about secret combinations...there is one right there for you.

It is heartening to see other members out here who are caring and try to see beyond the black and white.

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Each of us have our trials and our missions here on earth. Some of those are confusing. Just as you stated "Why me?" It's how we react to them that is important.

You seem to be doing a good job of it. As hard and as heartbreaking it may be at times. Lonely I'm sure as well.

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It was just a couple of years ago that my Bishop sat me down and told me some members complained to him that I was attending church. He then asked me what I thought of it. I told him "where am I suppose to go? No matter what Ward I'm in, I'm going to have to go through the same thing." He was pleased with my answer and I continued to attend.

I had my parents tell my siblings that the reason I did what I did was because I have a mental disorder (I believe he included the word insane) and that I couldn't help it. Now my siblings have a raging hatred of me. I haven't talked to them in over 10 years. My parents will contact me maybe once a year. I've had to accept that I'm no longer a part of that family.

I got to the point where I said "screw you" to whomever decides to come up against me and tell me I don't belong in church. I've pounced on some toes. I've tude'd some folks who decided to show me how little they care. I was such an angry person that I thought that what I was doing was mild. I found out it wasn't.

But I've progressed beyond the lashing out and I just let them all slide off my back. I have no idea why I posted all this. I guess to say that you're not alone in the feeling alone part. The only way I've been able to get through the loneliness is to pray and ask God to please let me feel the arms of his love. Thus far, he has always answered.

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  • 2 months later...

I used "Transsexual Mormon" in google. I do that from time to time to see if there are others like me. Typically I find embittered people with or with out good reason.

...

On a side note one individual who happened to already be anti-mormon (ex member) found out about me and used my journey as an excuse to hate the church even more. That makes me sad that any one would lose their faith in the church over my situation.

I hope those who read this do not feel like he did and start doubting your faith.

This may sound like an odd question, but did you post your story under a pseudonym starting with "GID"?

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  • 4 months later...

Ever since I have been a very small child I have wanted to be a girl and being so confused about who I am. As a young child I was teased by my older siblings about acting girly, and have had an intense fear of being found out. So I put on this frond and pretended to be more male. I made myself like boy things, and tried to hide the fact that I felt like a girl on the inside. I remember at night while in bed secretly trying on girl clothes and whishing and wanting so bad to be a girl.

The desire, or impulse, to be a girl is just as strong if not stronger than an addiction. The difference; I did not choose this like an addict chooses to partake in a substance. I am borne with this and it will never go away. No amount of abstaining will lessen the want, and there is nothing I can do to make it go away. I am stuck with this uncontrolled passion my whole life. The only way out is Gender reassignment surgery, or death.

Most of my best friends as a child where Girls; I associated better with them, and as I grew that changed, I then had no friends. I was continually teased by my peers for being more feminine. I would try and bottle up these feelings of being a girl and suppress them, but over time the pressure would build and I would not be able to contain it and the bottle would breaker. For a while I would not be able to control my feelings and be over whelmed with this intense desire, and then slowly I would be able to bottle it up again. I have gone through this cycle all my life, and every time this cycle repeats it becomes harder to bottle up again, until now. I have not been able to bottle it up.

Growing up in the church, I have been taught that this is wrong. That it is ok to feel like this, but it is a sin to act upon this. To act upon something that comes naturally to me. So I ask myself, why do I feel this way? The thought comes to my mind that God is perfect and that he does not make mistakes like this, trapping a female (or male) spirit in a male (or female) body. That would be placing limitations on an all-powerful God. What Blasphemy. So why do I feel this way? Is it a chemical imbalance, or is it something Psychological, something that can be fixed. My mother has Rheumatoid Arthritis and while pregnant with me was on a number of drugs. One of which was a very high does of cortisone. Could this have done something that has made me feel this way? I do know that this is a trial given to me by God. The only way I can find some relief is after masturbation, and the release dulls the intense want to be a female. But in no way makes me feel more male. If I can’t find any answer to why I feel this way, I want out of this Body. I feel like a square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Having the Gender Reassignment Surgery simply is not enough for me. It will not bring me all the experiences I was denied growing up; Playing with dolls, being a pretty princess, going through adolescence, puberty, and all the good and bad of growing up girl. To be able to forgo the misery and turmoil of believing how I feel is a sin; the trauma of going through male puberty and all the loathed changes that go with it. Now that I am an adult, the thing that tears my heart and hurts the absolute most, I will never experience Motherhood. I have been deprived of all the joys and sorrows of carrying and giving birth. The joy that comes from the special bond only a mother and child can shares. My heart aches in a dull pain knowing that I will never get the opportunity to experience this.

Through all of this I have tried to remain optimistic and put on a happy face, but I feel all alone. My marriage has failed and I have no desire to ever remarry. When I was first married I hoped that it would make how I feel more bearable, that some how being close to a woman would ease the want. I was mistaken. It did the exact opposite. It, over time, made the desire stronger, and threw in jealousy and resentment. I became jealous of her and the fact that she had all that I had ever wanted. I resented her for that as well. My jealousy grew when she became pregnant, and had everything I had desired my entire life. So I withdrew from her. The thought of ever remarrying, and going through that again, scares me to no end.

I hate my life, I hate my body, and in my mind I scream out, “Why me? Why have I been cursed like this?” I just wish I could be happy with who I am. Though, I do not plan on changing my body, that will cause my family too much grief and the trauma that it will cause to my little girl will be unbearable to me. I will strive to live within accordance to the church and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I have faith that all will be maid right in the end, and that my heavenly father is mindful of me and will never give me a trial that is too big for me to handle. So I will go on living in misery, with hop that in the end when I die I will find some comfort in the eternities.

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  • 2 months later...

I was reading everyones views on transgender people, and I had one thought. How many of you have ever sat down and talked to someone who has had to suffer for years under both problems that come with being transgender and people who judge them without any qualification other than that they own a bible.

Who gave you the right to judge what God has chosen for our individual trials in this mortal existance? When did you get the authority to proclaim that anyone is worthy or unworthy of the fathers love?

I am transgender and I beleave that not only did my heavenly father make me the way I am, but I also beleave that it is one of the greatest gifts my father has given me. I haven't had the surgery, but I have no intention of going back to playing the male role that tormented me for so long.

From what I've read here many of you would like to see me repent and return to being the person that I was forced to be for 29 years.

I can only say to this that if I did that I would still be unworthy to be baptized and take part in the sacrament. To be a lier is just as much of a sin as anything else and to go back to that would cause me to have to lie in all that I do. So my pain would be for nothing.

I find it absolutly amazing that people can demand things of people that they would never be able to survive themselves. Have any of you ever stopped to find out anything before you ploclaimed to the world that being transgender is a mental disorder? Did you know that around 40% of all transgender people commit suicide?

Even if you think being transgender is a mental disorder I don't hear you telling people with problems with depression that they are unworthy. How about those that suffer from Schizophrenia? I've never heard someone claiming that they are denying Gods plan in there life by seeking medication to help allievate the suffering caused by there illness.

I'm sorry if I come off to strong, but I've suffered quite a bit lately at the hands of those that would proclaim me unworthy. I've found the truth of the LDS church and now I have to grapple with the fact that I will likely never be able to be baptized. Even if I do get a approval letter from the first presidency (wich for those of you who don't know is the proper method of a transgender person becomeing members) I will never be able to enter the temple and give my mother the chance to join the church.

I have many pains that come from being who I am and I can only hope that when I die heavenly father will judge me by the same standard that we are commanded to judge his church.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

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I was reading everyones views on transgender people, and I had one thought. How many of you have ever sat down and talked to someone who has had to suffer for years under both problems that come with being transgender and people who judge them without any qualification other than that they own a bible.

I have.

Who gave you the right to judge what God has chosen for our individual trials in this mortal existance? When did you get the authority to proclaim that anyone is worthy or unworthy of the fathers love?

Who said that?

I am transgender and I beleave that not only did my heavenly father make me the way I am, but I also beleave that it is one of the greatest gifts my father has given me. I haven't had the surgery, but I have no intention of going back to playing the male role that tormented me for so long.

From what I've read here many of you would like to see me repent and return to being the person that I was forced to be for 29 years.

If Heavenly Father made you the way you are, why do you need hormone therapy and surgery to be that person?

I can only say to this that if I did that I would still be unworthy to be baptized and take part in the sacrament. To be a lier is just as much of a sin as anything else and to go back to that would cause me to have to lie in all that I do. So my pain would be for nothing.

I find it absolutly amazing that people can demand things of people that they would never be able to survive themselves. Have any of you ever stopped to find out anything before you ploclaimed to the world that being transgender is a mental disorder? Did you know that around 40% of all transgender people commit suicide?

People with mental disorders are more prone to suicide.

Even if you think being transgender is a mental disorder I don't hear you telling people with problems with depression that they are unworthy. How about those that suffer from Schizophrenia? I've never heard someone claiming that they are denying Gods plan in there life by seeking medication to help allievate the suffering caused by there illness.

That's because depression and schizophrenia aren't made into a lifestyle and a culture. They also don't have schizophrenic pride parades. It is telling though, that you're obviously upset with the idea that transgender gets the "mental disorder" label, yet when making an analogy to prove your point, you chose to compare transgendered with depression and schizophrenia.

I'm sorry if I come off to strong, but I've suffered quite a bit lately at the hands of those that would proclaim me unworthy. I've found the truth of the LDS church and now I have to grapple with the fact that I will likely never be able to be baptized. Even if I do get a approval letter from the first presidency (wich for those of you who don't know is the proper method of a transgender person becomeing members) I will never be able to enter the temple and give my mother the chance to join the church.

You're clearly hurt in all this, and you want your opinion to be heard. I am sincerely sorry that you are not able to be baptized right now. But your beliefs about the nature of being "transgendered" is what is out of place. I don't recall anyone saying that transgender is a mental disorder. I thought everyone was pretty foggy on what exactly defines transgender. You identify yourself as transgender, you are not in the group as someone who is schizophrenic. You are getting offended over things that you said and blaming other people for that offense. Even though that sounds schizophrenic, no one has made that comparison but you.

I have many pains that come from being who I am and I can only hope that when I die heavenly father will judge me by the same standard that we are commanded to judge his church.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I am at a complete loss as to why you quoted that verse from Matthew.

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I didn't even know you could do one quote after another like that.

I did not compair being transgender to being depressed or Schizophrenia. I just pointed out that even if you do see it as a mental disorder it still doesn't make it right to condemn people for seeking relief from suffering.

I quoted that scripture because I hope that the church will judge me the same way I judge it. You will know them by there fruits.

Other than those two I really don't care to respond to someone that takes a few words twists them out of context and throws them back in my face. When you have something to say other than that I would love to hear it.

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Hi, Katie. Considering that sex is changed in the womb from female to male by a wash of hormones at a certain point it seems to me that it is not that hard to see it goofing up and having a person born the wrong sex. It is not God that did that but whatever goofed up the hormone wash. Did you know that that same hormone wash may be what causes people to be left handed? Taking that idea farther people who are left handed may have just missed being born the wrong sex. Or even might be the wrong sex.

In the church the issue is a problem because of the importance of gender in the priesthood. What it amounts to is that it is going to have to be straightened out after this life. I have no doubt it will be straightened out.

The issue is confused by the truth that some people have psychological problems and are not transgendered at all just confused mentally. We, as mortals, have no way to determine which is the situation.

You have a cross to bear in this life that no one envies. God be with you and dont give up hope.

On a side issue someone said earlier that you can not be baptized if you have committed murder. That is not true, although it might be generally true. With the approval of the prophet at the time, I believe, one of my favorite authors was baptized. Anna Perry although that is not her birth name.

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Thank you replying. It's funny that you should talk about people being left handed concidering that I am left handed. ;) I can see that the priesthood would be an issue for those that are already members. I don't think that it's really much of an issue with me. I know there are those with issues I'll never understand that make them do strange things (I really can't think of a stranger thing than claiming to be transgender when your not). I just don't see them trying to join the church and if they did I can't see that it would be something horrible. Maybe under the guidence of good people she could be touched. I would never argue about priesthood because first I don't want it and second why make more ripples than I have to.

I'm sorry if I came across mean on the first message. I had just read the first couple pages on this thread and some of them are pretty disrespectful.

I hope one day to be a member, but it's out of my hands. It is funny to me though that all the higher ups (surely there must be a name for them as a group) seem to be interviewing me one by one. I feel like an exotic fish at the aquarium.

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Thank you replying. It's funny that you should talk about people being left handed concidering that I am left handed. ;) I can see that the priesthood would be an issue for those that are already members. I don't think that it's really much of an issue with me. I know there are those with issues I'll never understand that make them do strange things (I really can't think of a stranger thing than claiming to be transgender when your not). I just don't see them trying to join the church and if they did I can't see that it would be something horrible. Maybe under the guidence of good people she could be touched. I would never argue about priesthood because first I don't want it and second why make more ripples than I have to.

I'm sorry if I came across mean on the first message. I had just read the first couple pages on this thread and some of them are pretty disrespectful.

I hope one day to be a member, but it's out of my hands. It is funny to me though that all the higher ups (surely there must be a name for them as a group) seem to be interviewing me one by one. I feel like an exotic fish at the aquarium.

You ARE an exotic 'fish' and one that is hard to know how to deal with properly. Maybe we all need lessons on not judging people on the surface. You are lucky, if lucky is the right word, that with you priesthood is not an issue.

Now how would we have been able to guess you would be left handed. In a way its corroborating evidence that the hormones before birth didnt work as normal. I am left handed as well but am female. Oddly I have five brothers and no sisters. hmmm. :)

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I hate to say it, but I don't know why a transgendered person would want to join the LDS church, or a true hermaphodite for that matter. After all, the issue with transgendered is that their brains were wired differently, and no amount of therapy helps. For those who get the surgery, it's the only option other than suicide that helps. What those people need is real compassion, not judgment.

For the record, I was born heterosexual, and a female and I'm still a female.

I know this is old, but I couldn't let it pass without comment. I was shocked and kind of hurt when I read this! To say that suicide is an option that helps something (anything) is BEYOND inappropriate. I am astonished that anyone would say such a thing. Especially in an LDS forum.

Suicide is NEVER the answer, and even if this was said in jest, it is in VERY poor taste.

To the poster, I'm sorry to jump all over you about it, but this is really close to my heart and when I see people say things like this I have to stand up for myself. I don't think people realize how hearing (reading) people make comments about suicide being an 'answer' can truly effect someone who is suicidal themselves. It's just one of those things that we, as a society, need to stop saying.

K, I'll get off my soap box now. Please just let this be a reminder to everyone that we need to be a little more sensitive sometimes.... thank you!

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