18 Year Old Rutgers Student Commits Suicide

[dash77]

I think there have been some really good thoughts shared here. I do not need to add more -- but this was a real tradegy and is extremely sad. I feel not only for this young man -- but also for his family and parents.

[Elgama]

The very fact we say homosexuality is wrong rather than breaking the law of chastity is wrong is an attack on the person rather than the act. That person will be homosexual whether or not they get married in the temple and have children but they will not be wrong.

Instead of acknowledging the way it is, making all the resources available - to use prayer, study and blessings to make their decisions, get their own revelation and then trust God will make things right - we reject people for who they are rather than what they do.

Yes I do think the Christian Community including many LDS have been responsible because of their attitude for many sucides because a person is not accepted for who they are they are condemnd for their inner feelings and thoughts not their actions. They don't allow a teen to accept their feelings - that is different to saying a teen can't do something. Like being overweight is not a sin breaking the word of wisdom is. Being homosexual is not a sin.

I think our young people should be encouraged to speak freely to have all the resources thrown at them to take their own decision with God on the matter. Until that happens we are killing them. Many teens who are homosexual go through a horrendous scary and awful black time worried about the very essence, something they can't change being rejected. Instead let us accept they can't change it and help them make choices based on that.

I think openess is important even more so if that person goes on to get married - being gay will present that marriage with issues and challenges it is important to be aware of so they can be dealt with. I can't help but wonder how many abusive relationships may come out of the fear and revulsion within and aimed at the spouse and being unable to explain.

Right now the culture the Christian Community fosters and many church members foster is not healthy and leads to destruction for 10-30% of our membership that is a lot of people.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Elgama

[Elgama]

Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems

the above states that the higher suicide rates were attributed to break-ups with partners...

I have also read that suicide rates of homosexuals is the same in areas like San Fran (where their lifestyle is accepted) as it is in Bible Belt states - that there is not a higher suicide rate in Bible belt states suggests that their depression is not the result of Christians being overtly mean to them.

Doesn't San Francisco have bigoted people?

Homosexuality in the teen years presents massive problems when someone can't come out and just talk. It is not being mean that is the problem it is the idea that you have to bottle up what is going on, that you will be told your decision instead of guided to reach it. That I should imagine leads to the relationship break ups and mental health problems.

The gay people I know who were able to come out to someone and have the support and love of their family are usually happilly monogamous in relationships of many years.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Instead let us accept they can't change it and help them make choices based on that.

They may or may not be able to. But Heavenly Father certainly can.

Doesn't San Francisco have bigoted people?

Homosexuality in the teen years presents massive problems when someone can't come out and just talk. It is not being mean that is the problem it is the idea that you have to bottle up what is going on, that you will be told your decision instead of guided to reach it. That I should imagine leads to the relationship break ups and mental health problems.

The gay people I know who were able to come out to someone and have the support and love of their family are usually happilly monogamous in relationships of many years.

Wouldn't a lack of love, as well as a lack of communication qualify as "being mean"? Also, please don't use support in this context and in the same phrase as love without clarification, thank you. Do I support my aunt's homosexual behavior? No. Do I support her as my aunt and treat her family as if they were my own? Yes.

Edited October 20, 2011 by PrinceofLight2000

[Elgama]

Wouldn't a lack of love, as well as a lack of communication qualify as "being mean"? Also, please don't use support in this context and in the same phrase as love without clarification, thank you. Do I support my aunt's homosexuality? No. Do I support her as my aunt and treat her family as if they were my own? Yes.

So you wouldn't support her if she remained celibate or got married in the temple? Which is my point when you say you don't support her homosexuality you are saying you don't support her. Saying you don't approve her living with a partner is different. If I had chosen to marry the gay love of my life he wouldn't be any less gay, and it would need to be accepted.

They may or may not be able to. But Heavenly Father certainly can.

Heavenly Father can cure my fibromyalgia but he won't because it serves a purpose. How I choose to deal with my life's limitations as a result is down to me - he has enough faith in me to know I can. A gay/lesbian person may choose to do things differently but doesn't change the central core of who they are. Just like me raising 3 kids under seven doesn't mean I am cured just means we struggle and get through.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Elgama

[Soulsearcher]

They may or may not be able to. But Heavenly Father certainly can.

But there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be during the persons time on earth, this is where the issue comes. Telling a child that god will change them if the work hard enough and have enough faith is counter productive. When they devote their lives to god and do their best to change and it doesn't happen they feel worthless and that's when the suicide rate spikes. I'll have to find the article to give better details, but i'm pretty sure those were the feelings of the young man who killed himself at a meeting house in Utah, he just gave up cause no matter how strong his faith when the change didn't come he just finally took it as a sign he was the problem and ended his life.

[PrinceofLight2000]

So you wouldn't support her if she remained celibate or got married in the temple? Which is my point when you say you don't support her homosexuality you are saying you don't support her. Saying you don't approve her living with a partner is different.

My bad, I assumed the word homosexuality implied action over orientation.

[PrinceofLight2000]

But there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be during the persons time on earth, this is where the issue comes. Telling a child that god will change them if the work hard enough and have enough faith is counter productive. When they devote their lives to god and do their best to change and it doesn't happen they feel worthless and that's when the suicide rate spikes. I'll have to find the article to give better details, but i'm pretty sure those were the feelings of the young man who killed himself at a meeting house in Utah, he just gave up cause no matter how strong his faith when the change didn't come he just finally took it as a sign he was the problem and ended his life.

If what you're saying is indeed the case, it would be wise for the missionaries and for local leadership to teach this passage in context with homosexuality to the investigators and members struggling with homosexuality, respectively.

O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?

How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?

Yea, O Lord, how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before thine heart shall be softened toward them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion toward them?

O Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven, earth, and seas, and of all things that in them are, and who controllest and subjectest the devil, and the dark and benighted dominion of Sheol—stretch forth thy hand; let thine eye pierce; let thy pavilion be taken up; let thy hiding place no longer be covered; let thine ear be inclined; let thine heart be softened, and thy bowels moved with compassion toward us.

Let thine anger be kindled against our enemies; and, in the fury of thine heart, with thy sword avenge us of our wrongs.

Remember thy suffering saints, O our God; and thy servants will rejoice in thy name forever.

My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands.

Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job.

And they who do charge thee with transgression, their hope shall be blasted, and their prospects shall melt away as the hoar frost melteth before the burning rays of the rising sun;

[Elgama]

My bad, I assumed the word homosexuality implied action over orientation.

nope not every homosexual is having sex or even has a partner. Doesn't change who they are. I think the fact you don't understand that much means you haven't really listened and this is precisely the attitude that causes the depression and suicide it forces people to keep quiet because if they say they are gay that assumes they are having sex.

Most gay people I know have known they are such from very young ages usually under ten. They can't talk about what makes them tick or how they are different. No means to express that.

I am not condoning anyone having a same sex relationship however I do think they need to take their concerns to the Lord. I would hope that even if they choose to remain faithful LDS if any of my children are gay/lesbian they can tell me and talk to me, with my support find the right way with the Lord for them. An awful lot can't do that now.

I personally think being straight is as much a deviation as being gay it just doesn't keep you out the temple so is not as great a challenge- it removes choice. Personally i have the choice the idea of being with a woman does not revolt me I find women attractive. However I could choose to be with my husband because of who he is not what he is.

[PrinceofLight2000]

nope not every homosexual is having sex or even has a partner. Doesn't change who they are. I think the fact you don't understand that much means you haven't really listened and this is precisely the attitude that causes the depression and suicide it forces people to keep quiet because if they say they are gay that assumes they are having sex.

Most gay people I know have known they are such from very young ages usually under ten. They can't talk about what makes them tick or how they are different. No means to express that.

I am not condoning anyone having a same sex relationship however I do think they need to take their concerns to the Lord. I would hope that even if they choose to remain faithful LDS if any of my children are gay/lesbian they can tell me and talk to me, with my support find the right way with the Lord for them. An awful lot can't do that now.

I personally think being straight is as much a deviation as being gay it just doesn't keep you out the temple so is not as great a challenge- it removes choice. Personally i have the choice the idea of being with a woman does not revolt me I find women attractive. However I could choose to be with my husband because of who he is not what he is.

Yes, I understand and I admitted my mistake. The question currently at hand is: Can "who they are" be changed, by themselves or by Heavenly Father, and can it happen in this life?

By no means do I think all homosexuals will have that change happen to them. But can it? Definitely. Many have claimed such. I think it has to do with a complex interweaving of faith, desire, and Heavenly Father's will.

For those who feel they have enough faith and desire and are discouraged because the change hasn't happened yet, I point up to the passage I posted a moment ago. It isn't required of them to change their orientation in this life. For many faithful homosexuals, it will happen in the next.

[Soulsearcher]

The problem is Prince that too many members "know for a fact" that there is no biological reasoning for homosexuality. They think it's all a choice that people make for any number of reasons and that the person who has these feelings and attractions are just weak and selfish. The make homosexuals know this to a great extent and many even mock them for this. "you just aren't trying" "you're just finding excuses" "you just want attention" "you could change if you weren't selfish" are all things i've heard from members on this site or from other members. It's making a lot of assumptions with out actually understanding anything. There are any number of things people don't understand about the actions and intent of god, and yet members claim almost absolute knowledge of what god would or wouldn't do. The issue at debate isn't if it's a sin in the eyes of god, it's understanding the people themselves. Telling a person born with blond hair that if they pray and are strong enough in their faith that they will become a red head sounds kinda silly, yet that's exactly what people are telling homosexuals. Telling a black person that if their faith is strong enough they can become white is also a little far fetched, yet this is the promise made. So what are these people supposed to feel when their desire doesn't come to be? They live the life, follow the commandments, are temple worth and put in a lil extra just to be all they can be and yet they are still the same hair color or skin color, so is their faith just not strong enough or is this just not something god would usually do? Might sound silly to some, would you promise these people that if their faith is strong enough that these things would change? This to most homosexuals it exactly what the church is promising us and when it doesn't change it's devastating. Most members might laugh this off, but then it goes back to me saying people don't want to understand, they just want an easy answer. Yes point out homosexual relations are a sin, but to promise someone something you really don't know for sure can happen on this earth and then laugh or condemn them when it doesn't work is just cruel, and sadly this is more common than most members want to admit.

[PrinceofLight2000]

The problem is Prince that too many members "know for a fact" that there is no biological reasoning for homosexuality. They think it's all a choice that people make for any number of reasons and that the person who has these feelings and attractions are just weak and selfish. The make homosexuals know this to a great extent and many even mock them for this. "you just aren't trying" "you're just finding excuses" "you just want attention" "you could change if you weren't selfish" are all things i've heard from members on this site or from other members. It's making a lot of assumptions with out actually understanding anything. There are any number of things people don't understand about the actions and intent of god, and yet members claim almost absolute knowledge of what god would or wouldn't do. The issue at debate isn't if it's a sin in the eyes of god, it's understanding the people themselves. Telling a person born with blond hair that if they pray and are strong enough in their faith that they will become a red head sounds kinda silly, yet that's exactly what people are telling homosexuals. Telling a black person that if their faith is strong enough they can become white is also a little far fetched, yet this is the promise made. So what are these people supposed to feel when their desire doesn't come to be? They live the life, follow the commandments, are temple worth and put in a lil extra just to be all they can be and yet they are still the same hair color or skin color, so is their faith just not strong enough or is this just not something god would usually do? Might sound silly to some, would you promise these people that if their faith is strong enough that these things would change? This to most homosexuals it exactly what the church is promising us and when it doesn't change it's devastating. Most members might laugh this off, but then it goes back to me saying people don't want to understand, they just want an easy answer. Yes point out homosexual relations are a sin, but to promise someone something you really don't know for sure can happen on this earth and then laugh or condemn them when it doesn't work is just cruel, and sadly this is more common than most members want to admit.

The one thing in here I'm picking at is that we know for sure it can happen, just not whether it will in every case. Everything else is golden.

Aren't semantic technicalities a blast?

Edited October 6, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[Misshalfway]

All I can say is that my heart breaks for the Climenti family. The issue of teen suicide is huge and frankly I wish the church would add some time to address this at conference along side all the rest.

But doctrinally, what can the church do? The doctrine is what it is. And I doubt very highly that any of it will change. This isn't racism or bigotry. This is belief about the nature of the spirit and the flesh. And beyond all the complexity of biology, it's about the will of God. It gets confusing when parents are trying to teach their children about what they think are correct principles and then gay people hear that. It feels like we are labeling them as sinful and I can see how that hurts. On the other hand, I'm not sure what else LDS parents are suppose to do in such morally confusing times.

Beyond that I think the church has a long way to go in loving and accepting people who believe and choose differently than we do. Do I think we are guilty of everything we have been accused of on this issue? No. But I do think we struggle with being judgmental and I think we sometimes can be very hurtful with our silent exclusionary methods.

[Guest]

The problem is Prince that too many members "know for a fact" that there is no biological reasoning for homosexuality. They think it's all a choice that people make for any number of reasons and that the person who has these feelings and attractions are just weak and selfish. The make homosexuals know this to a great extent and many even mock them for this. "you just aren't trying" "you're just finding excuses" "you just want attention" "you could change if you weren't selfish" are all things i've heard from members on this site or from other members. It's making a lot of assumptions with out actually understanding anything. There are any number of things people don't understand about the actions and intent of god, and yet members claim almost absolute knowledge of what god would or wouldn't do. The issue at debate isn't if it's a sin in the eyes of god, it's understanding the people themselves. Telling a person born with blond hair that if they pray and are strong enough in their faith that they will become a red head sounds kinda silly, yet that's exactly what people are telling homosexuals. Telling a black person that if their faith is strong enough they can become white is also a little far fetched, yet this is the promise made. So what are these people supposed to feel when their desire doesn't come to be? They live the life, follow the commandments, are temple worth and put in a lil extra just to be all they can be and yet they are still the same hair color or skin color, so is their faith just not strong enough or is this just not something god would usually do? Might sound silly to some, would you promise these people that if their faith is strong enough that these things would change? This to most homosexuals it exactly what the church is promising us and when it doesn't change it's devastating. Most members might laugh this off, but then it goes back to me saying people don't want to understand, they just want an easy answer. Yes point out homosexual relations are a sin, but to promise someone something you really don't know for sure can happen on this earth and then laugh or condemn them when it doesn't work is just cruel, and sadly this is more common than most members want to admit.

The problem here is all about "the application" of the word homosexuality. For most of us straight folks - homosexuality is the choice to couple with the same gender. Whereas, for homosexuals - homosexuality is the "predisposition" to couple with the same gender. In my world, being gay is the "choice", being effiminate is the "nature".

Yes, I admit this is wrong. I now understand that the word homosexual or gay is the "predisposition" AND the "choice". So, if Webster can come up with a better word to differentiate the "choice" then it would be so much easier for us parents to teach our children about "homosexuality".

Because, I am teaching my children that it is bad for them to choose to be a homosexual - that is "to choose to date/have sex with another boy". Of course, I am assuming (with observation of their behavior since birth) that they are not born with the "predisposition" for it.

[HiJolly]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/health/03iht-cell.html

I realize that those who do not recognize the link between fruit flies and mankind will be less than impressed by this article. But for me, it was profound. I know that man is much more complex than a fruit fly, but this is directly applicable to the biology/"nature" question of sexual orientation.

HiJolly

[Elgama]

For those who feel they have enough faith and desire and are discouraged because the change hasn't happened yet, I point up to the passage I posted a moment ago. It isn't required of them to change their orientation in this life. For many faithful homosexuals, it will happen in the next.

Right but so many people yourself included say homosexuality is a sin - which when phrased like that puts the onus on the person to change their innards and who they are rather than refraining from an action. Why not phrase it as breaking the law of chastity is a sin and not condone that instead?

I still think the lack of openess and the attitude discouraging it is what causes the darkness for a gay or lesbian teen - how many would really feel comfortable going to a parent and asking for a blessing for help?

I have feared for the life of friends because of it. Having spent time talking to them, and listening, I mean really listening. As a result yes I think the Christian Community has a huge amount of blood on it's hands through lack of love and listening above all else.

Like others have said this is a huge tragedy for this young man's family and I am fed up sitting back and watching it happen.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Right but so many people yourself included say homosexuality is a sin - which when phrased like that puts the onus on the person to change their innards and who they are rather than refraining from an action. Why not phrase it as breaking the law of chastity is a sin and not condone that instead?

I still think the lack of openess and the attitude discouraging it is what causes the darkness for a gay or lesbian teen - how many would really feel comfortable going to a parent and asking for a blessing for help?

I have feared for the life of friends because of it. Having spent time talking to them, and listening, I mean really listening. As a result yes I think the Christian Community has a huge amount of blood on it's hands through lack of love and listening above all else.

Like others have said this is a huge tragedy for this young man's family and I am fed up sitting back and watching it happen.

The horse is dead, quit beating it! You horse corpse mutilator!

Seriously though, the two of us who did admitted our mistake. Moving on...

[Guest]

Right but so many people yourself included say homosexuality is a sin - which when phrased like that puts the onus on the person to change their innards and who they are rather than refraining from an action.

But "homosexuality" is a sin... until you find me a better word to use for "dating/having sex with the same gender"... because, ya know, "dating/having sex with the opposite gender" is not a sin...

[PrinceofLight2000]

But "homosexuality" is a sin... until you find me a better word to use for "dating/having sex with the same gender"... because, ya know, "dating/having sex with the opposite gender under preconditions of marriage" is not a sin...

Fixed.

[Soulsearcher]

The one thing in here I'm picking at is that we know for sure it can happen, just not whether it will in every case. Everything else is golden.

Aren't semantic technicalities a blast?

Not really because members don't seem to want to wait til the next life to pass judgment and belittle. If it's not changing now people are weak and selfish and not trying. Not sure i see humor in members making others feel like they are worthless just because they are at a different place than most members understand.

[Soulsearcher]

But "homosexuality" is a sin... until you find me a better word to use for "dating/having sex with the same gender"... because, ya know, "dating/having sex with the opposite gender" is not a sin...

Homosexual activities are a sin. Homosexual is and of it's sellf a way of being and is not a sin, and was pointed out very clearly by President Hinkley Homosexuality is not a sin, acting on it is. So considering is the words of the prophet, we don't need to find you a better word, you just have to listen to your prophet and change your mindset.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Not really because members don't seem to want to wait til the next life to pass judgment and belittle. If it's not changing now people are weak and selfish and not trying. Not sure i see humor in members making others feel like they are worthless just because they are at a different place than most members understand.

I agree with all of this, and I was making light of how we can make a huge argument out of someone misapplying a word or phrase.

[Soulsearcher]

I agree with all of this, and I was making light of how we can make a huge argument out of someone misapplying a word or phrase.

I understand, problem for me is i can't find anything to make light of with it. For some this is a silly topic, something that's cut and dry. For some it's meant a life of nothing but pain and fear. Sometimes what is funny or able ot make light of for one just seems a lil detached to others.

[Elgama]

I agree with all of this, and I was making light of how we can make a huge argument out of someone misapplying a word or phrase.

It is a serious misapplication of a phrase. It isn't funny to the teen who has heard their parents say it, and can't as a result approach them. We don't say heterosexuality is a sin - however it is when used inappropriately for every warning against homosexuality in the scriptures there are 6 warnings against misapplication of heterosexual relationships in the scriptures. General Conference has similar ratios.

Which is why I am suggesting people think before they speak

[PrinceofLight2000]

It is a serious misapplication of a phrase. It isn't funny to the teen who has heard their parents say it, and can't as a result approach them. We don't say heterosexuality is a sin - however it is when used inappropriately for every warning against homosexuality in the scriptures there are 6 warnings against misapplication of heterosexual relationships in the scriptures. General Conference has similar ratios.

Which is why I am suggesting people think before they speak

The misuse of the word homosexuality wasn't what I was referencing. What I emboldened in Soulsearcher's post here was. But please, no more semantics. It's wearing out the thread and I'd like to see others continue to state their opinions without having to sift through needless argument.

Edited October 6, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000