18 Year Old Rutgers Student Commits Suicide

[Just_A_Guy]

A few thoughts. I read through the link and found that there was a lot of guess work. They assumed because a place if more friendly to gay that there was less reason for persecution to have a large affect but there were no numbers to back it up and they admitted it was theory with no fact it seems in the paper. Just because a place is more at ease with something doesn't mean people will not run into a large amount of resistance, just means they might have access to more support. For youth all it takes in a handful of people making life hell to make life not worth living in their eyes. . . . The other thing missed is that after a suicide orientation is not always knows so some numbers in a lot of studies don't always know the whys or much of the info.

I only skimmed the NARTH link briefly (don't have much use for NARTH, actually--my understanding is that they can often be less-than-reliable); but . . .

Assuming that they did in fact demonstrate that the known suicide rate is identical in "gay friendly" areas to what it is in more conservative areas - frankly, I think it's just common sense that a gay kid in San Francisco isn't going to get hassled as much as a gay kid in Provo.

Your implication--which, in itself, is quite possible--seems to be that there's a certain critical mass of "resistance" that will drive a gay person to suicide, and that even gay friendly areas like San Francisco or Berkeley exceed that critical mass.

But then, if we want to solve the gay suicide problem, we have to reduce that "critical mass" even in places like the CA Bay Area. We need to figure out "how much resistance is too much?". And frankly, I think ultimately the answer is going to be that "conservative religion is too much"--not just the "God hates f--s" dirtbags, but even the Mormon and Catholic hierarchy who just say "we love you, but this is sinful and it won't make you happy". Good grief, look at SLC, where gay-rights elements have scheduled a lie-in at the Church Office Building sometime in the next week or two (over eight hundred will be attending, as per the Facebook site).

And even if we lay aside the First Amendment, we may be (partially) barking up the wrong tree. Thus far, the underlying assumption has been that every time a gay person kills himself, it's solely the result of the conservative elements in the kid's life--for purposes of our discussion, the Mormon Church and its teachings.

Now, certainly, Mormons need to re-evaluate their behavior. But then again: If you tell a Mormon kid (as Affirmation often does, or at least hints) that

--a) the kid can't change,

--b) Church-sponsored efforts to assist (like Evergreen) are ineffectual and tantamount to brainwashing,

--c) the religious leaders the kid knows, trusts, and loves are either

............i) brutal thugs or

............ii) doddering old fools; and

--d) life will always be incomplete if you aren't completely sexually satisfied--

well, repentance, hope, trust, and self-control were more than likely part of this kid's identity long before he hit puberty, discovered he liked other boys, and began learning fatalism, cynicism, contempt, and hedonism at the feet of the Affirmation gang. They are striking blows at the kid's sense of identity and self-worth just as much as the Church is; and they cannot then hold the Church solely accountable for the kid's subsequent decision to end his own life. Affirmation and other MoHo apologists have as much to atone for as do Messrs. Packer, Oaks, or any other of the Mormon Left's favorite whipping boys.

If we orthodox Mormons are supposed to perform a little introspection--all right then. But I hope Affirmation, and any individuals who try to convince Mormon kids to embrace their natures and go ahead and pursue same-sex relationships, will do likewise.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Soulsearcher]

Now, certainly, Mormons need to re-evaluate their behavior. But then again: If you tell a Mormon kid (as Affirmation often does, or at least hints) that a) the kid can't change, b) Church-sponsored efforts to assist (like Evergreen) are ineffectual and tantamount to brainwashing, c) the religious leaders the kid knows, trusts, and loves are either i) brutal thugs or ii) doddering old fools; and d) life will always be incomplete if you aren't completely sexually satisfied--you are striking blows at the kid's sense of identity and self just as much as the Church is; and you can no longer hold the Church solely accountable for the kid's decision to end his own life.

This is why i think we need more support and less people actively trying to steer these people. Listening and being there for teens does a lot more than trying to control their direction.Being open minded and flexible on both sides is the key. Making absolute statements on either side can cause harm and i agree, trust me i know from experience that the other side can do just as much in unrealistic expectations, both sides get so wrapped up in their agenda and tend to forget about the individual til they kill themselves and then both sides seem to point fingers instead of worrying about the person.

And even if we lay aside the First Amendment, we may be (partially) barking up the wrong tree. Thus far, the underlying assumption has been that every time a gay person kills himself, it's solely the result of the conservative elements in the kid's life--for purposes of our discussion, the Mormon Church and its teachings.

I think more than blaming the conservative elements i blame fear. Can fear come from the conservative elements, sure, but it can come from so many other things. I just worry with churches and faith more so because they tend to involve the child's parents and family. The unit that is supposed to love you unconditionally all of a sudden becomes your worst enemy(perception maybe not reality.) Also if your faith is strong and you are constantly made to feel like a failure to your god it does take a toll. However bullying, some media and other things are huge factors. The issue becomes to me, where do the attitudes that set gays as targets come from. How much of them are derived from teachings from church's that aren't fully clear about how to treat gays. How many come from parents who teach kids to behave because of what they learned as kids in church? There's a lot to be said for history and past practices and the need to change the lessons from the past. I don't put sole blame on Christianity, but i do think they could make great strides in how they handle the current and past generations on the topic.

Your implication--which, in itself, is quite possible--seems to be that there's a certain critical mass of "resistance" that will drive a gay person to suicide, and that even gay friendly areas like San Francisco or Berkeley exceed that critical mass.

I guess i see it this way. A gay teen with a Mormon or Catholic family, either in SLC or San Fransisco, still has a Mormon or Catholic family and is still held to those standards, their friends might be more accepting or understanding, but they still face the same home life and fear. There are a lot of factors that location can't change, and while i can see benefits of having a more supportive community, there's one fact a lot of people don't take into account. Gay doesn't mean public. Support only works if you are out and able to seek support. I hid for 30 years lol still not out to anybody really close to me. My city is considered pretty supportive, but it doesn't help me in the least because i won't seek the support cause i still have the stigma i was raised with from both the Mormon and Catholic sides of my family.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Soulsearcher, you've been speaking to the point of fear quite a bit. As I framed out earlier in the OP, do you think the homosexuals' own fear of being persecuted or disowned contributes to their suppression and this problem, whether that fear is irrational or not? It seems to me like a lot of gay people are more afraid that they're going to be rejected by those around them than they are afraid that their beliefs or actions won't be accepted. This was the case with my aunt, and her fear wasn't grounded in reality at all.

Edited October 6, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[Guest]

But "homosexuality" is a sin... until you find me a better word to use for "dating/having sex with the same gender"... because, ya know, "dating/having sex with the opposite gender under the precondition of marriage" is not a sin...

Fixed.

NOPE.

"dating/having sex with the same gender under the precondition of marriage" is STILL A SIN.

[PrinceofLight2000]

NOPE.

"dating/having sex with the same gender under the precondition of marriage" is STILL A SIN.

Pretty sure I fixed that, haha. I typed it in the wrong place.

Edited October 6, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[Traveler]

I have thought about this for some time. First I would speak to the issue of privacy. Every individual has the right to keep private things private. Having private things made public can be an embarrassment and humiliation – mostly if the individual does not personally believe in what is being kept private. Granted no one wants to be on public TV while they are suing the bathroom but being found out that one uses a bathroom hardly justifies suicide.

Why should someone be embarrassed and humiliated over something that is true? Why would a person kill themselves over the truth of them being known? Not a distortion or a lie but the pure and simple truth. This is the thought that haunts me. This is the point at which I am disconnected from understanding. This is where I am most perplexed. This is where I wonder if an untreated or unrecognized “mental illness” is a primary contributing factor.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

Why should someone be embarrassed and humiliated over something that is true? Why would a person kill themselves over the truth of them being known? Not a distortion or a lie but the pure and simple truth. This is the thought that haunts me. This is the point at which I am disconnected from understanding. This is where I am most perplexed. This is where I wonder if an untreated or unrecognized “mental illness” is a primary contributing factor.

I guess the easiest way to explain it is this. When you are raised being taught that every feeling and desire you have is evil, when you have seen others tossed out of their homes because of these same feelings and desire, when you see media portray you as something you know you are not, then why on earth wouldn't you try and hide. Look at post in the forums. How many members make it clear they know more about gays and their struggles than the gay people do. After hearing that for a long time and after people saying you just don't get yourself, you stop trying to be you, and you start hiding. Gay people are taught to hide and lie so they can fit in easier.

[Gwen]

this wasn't getting caught peeing. this was being caught in a very intimate moment. having someone broadcast on the web (which is to the world and can NEVER be taken back) a moment so personal as the intimacy between two ppl would be horrifying. i can't think of anyone that would not want to kill them self or the other person one.

to add to that this ym had not come out, he didn't want anyone to know his sexual preference. so he was outed in the worst way i can possibly think of. i can't imagine his being suicidal at that point was due to a mental illness.

[Just_A_Guy]

Frankly, I know some pretty decent folks who'd be considering suicide if they found they'd been taped and broadcast in the act of heterosexual relations.

What these kids did to their classmate was utterly revolting if not outright evil. I hope they see jail time.

[Traveler]

I guess the easiest way to explain it is this. When you are raised being taught that every feeling and desire you have is evil, when you have seen others tossed out of their homes because of these same feelings and desire, when you see media portray you as something you know you are not, then why on earth wouldn't you try and hide. Look at post in the forums. How many members make it clear they know more about gays and their struggles than the gay people do. After hearing that for a long time and after people saying you just don't get yourself, you stop trying to be you, and you start hiding. Gay people are taught to hide and lie so they can fit in easier.

Are you saying mental illnes is or is not involved in a suicide like this?

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

Are you saying mental illnes is or is not involved in a suicide like this?

The Traveler

I don't think it is exactly. I think the people are driven to despair. When everyone around you lets you know you are a failure for just drawing breath there tends not to be a point to trying to live anymore.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I don't think it is exactly. I think the people are driven to despair. When everyone around you lets you know you are a failure for just drawing breath there tends not to be a point to trying to live anymore.

But is that what happens in every case, Soul?

[Jenamarie]

But is that what happens in every case, Soul?

How could we ever know? Unless we were intimately familiar with these people who are killing themselves. Even their parents, most of the time, express complete shock that their kids did this to themselves. Even if they knew about the bullying and/or the child's struggles with their sexuality, there must have been enough "okay" about their life that their parents and family thought they still had a lot to live for, that the good outweighed the bad, and that they had a lot to be hopeful for. They didn't see the helplessness, and the child didn't tell them about their true feelings until they wrote their suicide note.

[PrinceofLight2000]

How could we ever know? Unless we were intimately familiar with these people who are killing themselves. Even their parents, most of the time, express complete shock that their kids did this to themselves. Even if they knew about the bullying and/or the child's struggles with their sexuality, there must have been enough "okay" about their life that their parents and family thought they still had a lot to live for, that the good outweighed the bad, and that they had a lot to be hopeful for. They didn't see the helplessness, and the child didn't tell them about their true feelings until they wrote their suicide note.

That's my point. I don't think being told "you are a failure for not changing your attractions" is always the reason for these deaths. In this case, and in many others, it was another form of harassment.

[Jenamarie]

That's my point. I don't think being told "you are a failure for not changing your attractions" is always the reason for these deaths. In this case, and in many others, it was another form of harassment.

But if it even plays a part, isn't that bad enough? (calling people failures for things they're genuinely trying to change and/or deal with?) You never know which negative encounter is going to be the proverbial straw. I would hate to think that someone's interactions with someone who claims to be a follower of Christ would lead them to believing they had no hope, rather than an abundance of hope because of the Savior and His Atonement.

[PrinceofLight2000]

But if it even plays a part, isn't that bad enough? (calling people failures for things they're genuinely trying to change and/or deal with?) You never know which negative encounter is going to be the proverbial straw. I would hate to think that someone's interactions with someone who claims to be a follower of Christ would lead them to believing they had no hope, rather than an abundance of hope because of the Savior and His Atonement.

It definitely is bad enough. I'm just not convinced it plays a role in each case, is all.

Edited October 11, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[Traveler]

I don't think it is exactly. I think the people are driven to despair. When everyone around you lets you know you are a failure for just drawing breath there tends not to be a point to trying to live anymore.

I think you may be over playing and exaggerating the point. I had personal friends that were years in POW camps in Vietnam that were subjected to far more than you claim a human can endure. And they were younger than our Rutgers friend.

I have also volunteered service to victims of attempted suicide. I am very concerned with how quickly you insist on brushing aside the possibility of mental problems contributing to suicide. I am also concerned with the possibility that a person confused about their sexuality becoming pressured by the homosexual community; having experimented and finding themselves uncomfortable - becoming just as labeled and boxed in when they still have desires to be straight – thus feeling alienated by everyone – exactly as you are inferring.

But with the attitudes of political correctness no one favors the truth and there is no support anywhere. If you want to know how vicious the homosexual community can be – stop by a forum popular to homosexuals and suggest that you have been involved in homosexuality but are convinced you are not a homosexual anymore and see what kind of support you will receive.

The Traveler

PS. I thought I would point out that even you are convinced that there is no support from the straight community - indicating if not directly that trying to be straight is a hopeless cause.

I realize this opens a can of worm for almost everybody - but if we cannot get past our prejudices and realize that seldom is the blame always as one sided as we want to make it out to be.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Traveler
added PS

[Soulsearcher]

I think you may be over playing and exaggerating the point. I had personal friends that were years in POW camps in Vietnam that were subjected to far more than you claim a human can endure. And they were younger than our Rutgers friend.

I have also volunteered service to victims of attempted suicide. I am very concerned with how quickly you insist on brushing aside the possibility of mental problems contributing to suicide. I am also concerned with the possibility that a person confused about their sexuality becoming pressured by the homosexual community; having experimented and finding themselves uncomfortable - becoming just as labeled and boxed in when they still have desires to be straight – thus feeling alienated by everyone – exactly as you are inferring.

But with the attitudes of political correctness no one favors the truth and there is no support anywhere. If you want to know how vicious the homosexual community can be – stop by a forum popular to homosexuals and suggest that you have been involved in homosexuality but are convinced you are not a homosexual anymore and see what kind of support you will receive.

The Traveler

You can see it as exaggerating a point or can see it as an inside insight. I didn't say it's more than a person can endure i said it's been more than some can endure. One of the issues with the POW's though was it wasn't those closest to them tormenting and turning on them, while i will never belittle what they went through, there is something about the fear and actuality of those closest turning on you.

I also didn't say i insist there's no possibility of mental issues, though i also think it's silly to imply that it is a must in all cases. Take each case as it comes is a much better look. From what has been said about this student there was no history i've seen of mental issues, though anyone can infer he had one. I think some people look to see a mental disorder so as to ease blame on other factors. Do some of these people have mental issues, I'm sure some do, though i also ask what they are and where they originate from.

Now considering you're talking to someone who is part of the lifestyle and boards I'll be honest. When i started going i was very all over the place, very unsure and really the only advice i go was figure it out for your self, find what makes you at peace with you and if you're gay, great, if you aren't ...great. Haven't seen a single issue with people who have flip flopped, actually to the contrary i usually find their insights quite welcome. lol they might get teased a little, but never have i seen it in a harsh method. Am i sure there are exceptions, very much so, all sides have militaristic members, but is it the norm, not from my experience. Also yes homosexuals are just as bad for beating up or making fun of people even with in their ranks sometimes. Welcome to human nature.

Also out of the number of forums and people i've gone to about figuring out i was pressured by one person to explore, others have just said take your time and figure your self out, and I've seen much the same advice to many others in similar situations. So as someone who is in the life style and culture a little more i can say you might have experienced it, but it's not the typical way.

PS. I thought I would point out that even you are convinced that there is no support from the straight community - indicating if not directly that trying to be straight is a hopeless cause.

I've never said a hopeless cause, ut when they numbers show it's a rare occurrence and in fact in many cases the attempt to force it has done harm, one must step back and wonder that even if possible is it the correct course. Also there is a difference between those who "dabble" and those for who there has never been any other type of urge ever.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Soulsearcher