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pam

President Boyd K. Packer – Sunday a.m. session

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The Proclamation of the Family is considered revelation and would behoove everyone to follow it.

“The Devil made me do it” Not so. He doesn’t have the power to force you to do anything.

Love between husband and wife can bring fulfillment always.

Marriage is to be only between husband and wife – man and woman.

We can choose to not follow the commandments but when they say “Thou shalt” we had better.

Pornography is like unto a plague spreading across the world.

If one is obedient, the Priesthood can show you how to break a habit.

Entering into any relationship that is not in harmony with the principles of the gospel is wrong.

There are those that would have us vote on laws that change the divine nature.

Moral standards can not be changed by battle or by ballot.

We will not change the moral standards.

Repentance is like a good detergent. Even the worst of sins will wash out.

Sometimes the most difficult part of repentance is to learn to forgive ourselves.

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Should there have been any question about where the church stands on moral issues, one need only to listen to this great oration by President Boyd K. Packer, delivered with power and authority.

A great message of the Lord's position on questions and issues of morality... all done without once using the words "homosexuality" or "gay marriage"; yet... the message was very, very clear.

May the Lord continue to bless this great prophet. May we listen and follow his counsel.

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I'm somewhat interested to hear the response of those who have convinced themselves that the spirit has revealed something to them contrary to these laws and contrary to the statements of Elder Oaks.

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I'm somewhat interested to hear the response of those who have convinced themselves that the spirit has revealed something to them contrary to these laws and contrary to the statements of Elder Oaks.

What statements of Elder Oaks?

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I can't wait to see what the world's reaction to this talk will be.

Ask, and you will receive. *rustles feathers and bows nervously* Here's a quote from another thread on these forums that I thought would be appropriate, if not as a response then as a reminder.

If we limit peoples understanding by spreading fear and misinformation. If we tell people that we understand the issue without ever living it and claim to be experts on how it all works and feels, we are never going to get very far. I myself find it quite amazing how i've found people on this site who can explain the entire gay experience to me without ever going through it. or those who ask a question about it only to tell the people in the situation that they are wrong and completely mislead.

I think the funniest thing though will be when most of my comments will be tossed out as biased or uninformed. That i really don't get something or i just don't like christians, or that my experience has been unique and people as a whole are so much better. I guess all i can really say to that is, these kids are killing themselves. (emphasis added)

James Dunkley (1989-2009)

Marshall Myers (1983-2008)

Joseph Timpson (1965-2007)

Douglas Stewart (1973-2006)

Scot Jensen (1975-2005)

Lynn Stewart (1957-2005)

Bryan Smith (1983-2004)

Christopher Ricksecker (1982-2003)

Duane Catten (1965-2001)

Clifford Martell (1951-2000)

Stuart Matis (1967-2000)

DJ Thompson (1967-2000)

A larger, though still incomplete list of gay and lesbian LDS church members who died to suicide is available at Affirmation: Gay & Lesbian Mormons. My personal story and near-death experience are on Dreamwidth. For a moving video that discusses these deaths from an LDS, faith-affirming perspective, watch Will Swenson's "

"

Soulsearcher goes on to say:

Yes I'm biased, yes i know that i'm blind and i'm misguided, that i'm missing a bigger picture and that Christians really do their best and never want to see any one hurt and love everyone. As you type those words and other words to tell me just how little i know, i'll be reading through the articles about the 4 or 5 gay teens who killed themselves this month that we know about.

That's what I thought about when I read about this talk. Soulsearcher put it much better than I could have. I hope his reaction is worldly enough for you. *bows again, knees shaking*

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I'm somewhat interested to hear the response of those who have convinced themselves that the spirit has revealed something to them contrary to these laws and contrary to the statements of Elder Oaks.

"Without love there is no desire to understand. Without a desire to understand, we will forever sit in darkness."

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"Without love there is no desire to understand. Without a desire to understand, we will forever sit in darkness."

Totally fair and I deserve that completely. Its a principle that I support but sadly I am not perfect in my love for others and part of that imperfection is a lack of understanding towards those who blatantly and seriously defy church policy or the commandments or whatever under the premise that the words of the prophets don't apply to them. For me it makes it worse when they support themselves by claiming that God is allowing them to continue and even supports it.

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Ask, and you will receive. *rustles feathers and bows nervously*

That's what I thought about when I read about this talk. Soulsearcher put it much better than I could have. I hope his reaction is worldly enough for you. *bows again, knees shaking*

Not sure that I was asking for feather rustling. The point is that the church doesn't change its doctrine on the whims of society. Now if the Lord was to say allow gays to marry and have the same standing in the church as straight people then that would be different wouldn't it? That won't happen though.

Just because I have never been gay doesn't mean I can't empathize with someone that is. And just because I don't have those tendencies doesn't mean that I am out to lunch as to what the Lord has said about them. It is a black and white issue, but one in which I can still show compassion. I have a couple gay friends and they know my stance on their lifestyle. Yet it doesn't stop us from being friends.

I wish that people wouldn't make such a big deal about diversity because if they wouldn't we could all be less superficial and more genuine.

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I saw an interview with a gay man in response to the talk, who was obviously hurt over the words, but obviously misunderstood the churches intentions. He said that our church teaches hate, which is quite the opposite. And no, not all members act accordingly, or make perfect decisions on the matter, but the churche's stance is clear. The way i understand it is, we don't agree with gay marriage, but we don't hate gay people either. And many gay people won't understand that. Its unfortunate that there are gay lds teens and young adults that kill themselves over it. I lay it all at the devil's feet.

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The point is that the church doesn't change its doctrine on the whims of society. Now if the Lord was to say allow gays to marry and have the same standing in the church as straight people then that would be different wouldn't it? That won't happen though.

Prior to 1978, your church's leaders said a lot of things, including in Conference talks, about blacks and the Priesthood; interracial marriage; and black people's lack of faithfulness in the pre-mortal life. After Official Declaration 2 was received (during a time when there was a great deal of societal pressure on your church), Bruce R. McConkie gave a talk where he said:

"people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

With a great deal of respect for you and your beliefs, you don't know if that will happen or not.

... sadly I am not perfect in my love for others and part of that imperfection is a lack of understanding towards those who blatantly and seriously defy church policy or the commandments or whatever under the premise that the words of the prophets don't apply to them.

As someone who isn't a part of your church, for me the challenge to understand is very different.

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Its unfortunate that there are gay lds teens and young adults that kill themselves over it. I lay it all at the devil's feet.

If you're concerned about such things happening, you could always try talking to them and hearing their stories [mod edit: link removed]. There might be something you could do that would help.

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon

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"Without love there is no desire to understand. Without a desire to understand, we will forever sit in darkness."

Ah. Naturally, Elder Oaks' and Elder Packer's common problem is that they just don't love enough. And I'm sure this conclusion of yours is based on years of acquaintance with either/both of them, an intimate familiarity of their life circumstances, and an encyclopedic knowledge of everything these gentlemen have ever read regarding the experience of gay Mormons and their families.

(Or maybe you're just trying to demonize your opponents, as thousands have done before you, because it's so much easier than trying to understand where your opponents are coming from.)

With a great deal of respect for you and your beliefs, you don't know if that [LDS doctrinal changes regarding gays] will happen or not.

Yes, let us ignore for a moment that even Brigham Young (who freakin' began the whole blacks and priesthood ban thing) said that someday the ban would be lifted (whereas no such assurance has ever been made regarding gay sex ultimately becoming acceptable).

All that aside: For someone who says the future is unknowable, you seem to be quite certain that the Church will ultimately be browbeaten into making said changes.

But of course, all those Mormons who note that the march of gay rights threatens religious freedom, are just talking crazy talk.

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If you're concerned about such things happening, you could always try talking to them and hearing their stories. There might be something you could do that would help.

You mean, the Affirmation gang that tries to destroy decades of Church teaching--that tells them that certain aspects of the natural man not only cannot be overcome, but should not be fought in the first place? The group that deliberately cherry-picks anecdotes and out-of-context quotations to make Church leaders look like heartless thugs or doddering old fools?

What drives these kids to suicide is not the big, bad Mormon Church. It's the conflict between the Church's appeal to self-governance on one hand, and Affirmation's call for unfettered hedonism on the other.

At least our inflexibility is based on a good-faith belief in God, the nature of sin, and an afterlife. Affirmation's position is based on the putrid lie that life isn't worth living if you're not having sex.

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Speaking (typing?) as someone who has successfully emerged from the gay lifestyle and put it behind me, I appreciate Elder Packer's words.

This issue is a perfect, yet tragic, example of the importance of humility, of recognizing that one does not always know best for oneself and that the better rule is to place one's trust in the Lord, rather than in one's own imperfect earthly reasoning. Our world appears to have lost its ability to be humble. Is it any wonder that the rise in gay suicide seems to align perfectly with the rise of the "me" generation and the drumbeat of public encouragement to become enslaved by one's own passions? How much different would our world be if instead there were a drumbeat of humble submission to God?

There are, sadly, many both in and out of the Church) who - with an equal lack of humility - exhibit anger, dislike, and indifference towards those who suffer from same sex attractions (and from my own experience it is indeed a "suffering"). Thankfully, in my case, there were enough people in my life who were able to show genuine love to me, while still preaching the consistent gospel of Jesus Christ, to reach me. It took time, but I eventually heard them, and the consistency of their witness and the evident peace in their lives from following the gospel was a key reason. I for one have never felt more truly free than since I broke away from that lifestyle. As I've told more than one person, it's as if I've emerged from a very long sleep.

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Let me make this very clear. These forums that I have started are meant to be uplifting and to discuss the very powerful messages that we have heard from the General Authorities in our Church.

That being said, they are NOT, let me repeat NOT to be used as a debate as to whether our doctrine or views on issues are correct or not.

President Packer stated very clearly what our position as a Church is. He stated very clearly what the Lord's position is. It's what we believe and it is what it is.

Anyone that wants to debate it..take it somewhere else. It will not be debated on these threads.

Edited by pam

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Sorry Pam.

One aspect of conference for me this session is that one of my roommates has only been a member for about 2 months. Somehow this added a whole new dynamic to watching conference. I can definitely say that this is one of the best I have had.

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I like the new conference site on the church's site. :) So easy to pull up and go from one place to another. In between talks I listen to one that I did not get all. I love it.

I just listen to the Prophet's talk again. His beautiful blessings to all. Talking about being kind and loving one another has answered alot of prayers I think. I recently was in a discussion about being kinder in our homes. How we need to be kinder when talking to our spouses and our children. Sometimes we are so busy saying don't that we do not watch how we say such words.

We have much to pull from these talks. Our Leaders were kind but firm on things we need to work on as members.

I am going to dig out the board games. :) when the grandbabies come to visit over nights. I going to tell them to leave their electronics at home. (in a kind way) Sigh did anyone hear anything on those talks about helping Nannie clean out all the junk around here ;) ? I guess I need to go listen again :) You all have a good day.

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I quite agree with Pam, while i may have questions or concerns over some of the statements this is not the place for them, we've been having a conversation that ties closely to some of the comments said in another thread and if people wish to continue the conversation this would be a more appropriate place. http://www.lds.net/forums/current-events/34904-18-year-old-rutgers-student-commits-suicide.html

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Prior to 1978, your church's leaders said a lot of things, including in Conference talks, about blacks and the Priesthood; interracial marriage; and black people's lack of faithfulness in the pre-mortal life. After Official Declaration 2 was received (during a time when there was a great deal of societal pressure on your church), Bruce R. McConkie gave a talk where he said:

"people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

With a great deal of respect for you and your beliefs, you don't know if that will happen or not.

A very poor example. The revelation allowing all worthy men to receive the Priesthood is quite a different issue than allowing two people of the same gender to marry. Those who were not yet blessed to receive the Priesthood were not living in open defiance to the Lord's teachings nor lobbying to make that defiance the law of the land.

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Let's get back to the points of the talk or I will close this. Sad we can't even keep a general conference talk on topic.

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