Plates of Gold vs. Baby Jesus


Jamie123
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There was a guy in the chatroom last night (I forget his nick) spouting on about how wonderful the Church/Joseph Smith/BoM all are, and then he said something which rather worried me. He said that Smith was given a "gift more precious than the Baby Jesus". I asked him what it was, and he said "the golden plates of course!"

Now I understand that (in the Mormon view anyway) these plates were pivotal to the re-establishment of the "true" Church on earth, and I understand also that "precious" is a subjective term. But it seems odd that any Christian should regard anyone or anything (particularly an inanimate object, however holy) above Our Lord Himself.

When I asked Roseslipper (who was also in the room at the time) she said she thought this guy might have been a nonmember trolling. It certainly sounds like it. But I'm interested to know if this idea makes any sense to anyone else. Any thoughts anyone?

Edited by Jamie123
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Yeah, that doesn't jive well with the Church's teachings. No gift to any person has, is, or will be greater than that of Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten to descend below all things, suffer for our sins, and die for us, that we might have the the opportunity to return to our Heavenly Father. Christ, and his Atonement trump all. The Book of Mormon, the Golden Plates, the Church, Joseph Smith...all these serve to bring us to a knowledge of Christ and his Atonement, and help us accept Christ as our Savior and follow him.

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Thanks - there was also a...well...what you might politely call a "pugnacious critic of Mormonism" online same time so it could have been the same person with 2 accounts and two PC's. He had some strange ideas as well: He said that Joseph Smith was killed by the State Militia (anyone else heard that before?)

At the same time though, I do sometimes get knocked sideways a little even by what "serious" Mormons say. About 20 years ago I heard a young Elder (that still sounds like an oxymoron!) tell the congragation that "Joseph Smith was the greatest prophet who ever lived". Even granted that Smith was a prophet, why is it so important that he was the greatest prophet? Was he greater than Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Johah, John the Baptist, St. Paul...not to mention all the prophets of the Book of Mormon? How is "greatness" defined anyway, and why is it necessary to "rank" prophets in this manner?

It wasn't even a casual remark either, like when another Elder told me "Forget science! Science just tells you we come from apes!". He (the "greatest prophet" Elder) thought it so important that he then repeated it, more slowly and with greater emphasis. No one seemed to take the slightest issue with it...though I suppose like me they may have been afraid of looking stupid.

Edited by Jamie123
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There was a guy in the chatroom last night (I forget his nick) spouting on about how wonderful the Church/Joseph Smith/BoM all are, and then he said something which rather worried me. He said that Smith was given a "gift more precious than the Baby Jesus". I asked him what it was, and he said "the golden plates of course!"

Now I understand that (in the Mormon view anyway) these plates were pivotal to the re-establishment of the "true" Church on earth, and I understand also that "precious" is a subjective term. But it seems odd that any Christian should regard anyone or anything (particularly an inanimate object, however holy) above Our Lord Himself.

When I asked Roseslipper (who was also in the room at the time) she said she thought this guy might have been a nonmember trolling. It certainly sounds like it. But I'm interested to know if this idea makes any sense to anyone else. Any thoughts anyone?

Just a troll. One of the big signs of a troll on a religion board in the last few years has been the term "baby Jesus." I blame it on that race car movie with Will Ferrell "The Ballad of Rickie Bobby" or whatever it was called. I wouldn't take much stock in that person's comments. Just be as nice as possible and don't give the troll the attention he is seeking.

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Just a troll. One of the big signs of a troll on a religion board in the last few years has been the term "baby Jesus." I blame it on that race car movie with Will Ferrell "The Ballad of Rickie Bobby" or whatever it was called. I wouldn't take much stock in that person's comments. Just be as nice as possible and don't give the troll the attention he is seeking.

Indeed, I rarely hear the term "baby Jesus" used in anything but a mocking manner (usually with sweet added to the beginning), either directly or in the depiction of someone the depicter thinks should be mocked. I suppose there are other denominations that may use it in a serious manner (and a a hymn or two) but a LDS using the phrase would give me pause.

He said that Joseph Smith was killed by the State Militia (anyone else heard that before?)

Joseph Smith's Martyrdom | Mormon History

Sounds like local militia not state militia*. Of course using the definitive article kinda implies it was done as an organization or otherwise officially. It would probably have been more accurate to say he was killed by militia members. Unless he was trying to imply the State Militia not protecting him lead to his death by their absence via the whole, "You could have prevented it but you didn't, you are responsible!" angle.

* Of course the state militia was, unless I'm mistaken, just a combination of local militias.

Edited by Dravin
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A very coarse review of the events leading to Smith's murder would go something along these lines

  • The printing house of the Nauvoo Expositor is torn down by the Saints
  • The owners of the printing house appeal to the state for recourse
  • The state sends a militia to Nauvoo to apprehend Smith. The militia was sent because it was well known that Nauvoo had it's own militia that was very well trained
  • Governor Tom Ford promises to protect Smith if he comes willingly
  • The militias sent to Carthage to protect Smith are those nearest Nauvoo that have the biggest complaints against the Mormons
  • A group of militia men stage a raid that the militia allows through into the jail where Smith is murdered

I may be a little off on some of the events, but that's the general gist. People are welcome to correct me.

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Joseph Smith was killed by the locals called 'The Carthage Greys'

He crossed the Mississippi river over into Montrose, Iowa and could have escaped until he received the letter from Emma stating that many of the saints were calling Joseph a coward for leaving.

So then the famous words 'If my life is of no worth to my freinds, it is of no worth to me ( or something to that effect)

I personally don't think Joseph wanted to be on the run from the law and had grown weary of it over the years and decide to come back and face the law after destroying the printing press.

Joseph was not martyred he was murdered. He and Hyrum were slipped pistols either before they arrived at Carthage or while in the jail (depends on what story you want to believe)

Joseph began firing into the mob at the door after Hyrum had been shot and killed two men and injured a couple of others with a six shooter and hyrum had a small two shot box pistol that if I remember right tried to fire but it malfunctioned.

I think I stand corrected on some of the details by MOE on the militia.

Edited by FlaviusHambonius
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Joseph was not martyred he was murdered.

Strange you say that - could it cot have been both murder and martyrdom?

Some say his last words were "Will no one help a poor son of the widow?" which is more than possible as he was a Freemason - as were many other Mormons of that period.

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Strange you say that - could it cot have been both murder and martyrdom?

Some say his last words were "Will no one help a poor son of the widow?" which is more than possible as he was a Freemason - as were many other Mormons of that period.

If Joseph would not have had the pistol and killed two and instead just been passive about it, then yes I would call it a martyrdom, but when he took defensive actions, then I just call it a slaughter.

I would call the killing of Peter, Paul and someone like Joan of Arc a martyr.

As to his last words there seems to be some different opinions also -- there seems to be an account of him saying something to the effect of 'My God, My God' after he was shot by the window and as he was falling down to the ground.

For years the tour guides at Carthage would claim that the blood stains on the floor about six feet behind the door was that of Joseph's which makes no sense at all, because that is where Hyrum collapsed and lay after being shot in the face and where a pool of blood collected.

Hyrum was to have said 'I'm a dead man' after being shot -- which also makes no sense -- how many people do you think could actually say anything after being shot in the head?

Anyway, Joseph attended to Hyrum briefly, then headed for the window to supposedly to try to escape when he was riddled with bullets from the awaiting mob outside.

If you will YouTube Bill McKeever concerning the death of Joseph Smith it will enlighten many I believe on the subject. McKeever has been on many tours of Carthage over the years and after the tour guides are done with their discussions -- McKeever pulls them aside and talks to them about the fact to which most all of them have agreed -- they just don't bring it out during the tour.

Maybe a lot of folklore has been mixed with some facts over the years, but I suppose that is for each individual to decide.

I would have provided a link, but am unable to where I am at, sorry.

Edited by FlaviusHambonius
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Having a gun and using it to defend himself doesn't negate the fact he was a martyr as well.

mar·tyr –noun

1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.

3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.

yeah he used a pistol to try and defend himself, but he knew he was going to die. Days earlier he said "I go as a lamb to a slaughter." In a letter prior to his jailing at Carthage, he wrote to someone "If Hyrum and I are imprisoned again, we will be killed, or I am not a prophet of God."

He went willingly to Carthage knowing he wouldn't be returning. He accepted death, knowing that his work was done, and that he had to seal the testimony of the Book of Mormon with his blood. He is a martyr in that sense.

He was murdered in cold blood, by the mob as well.

Murder and Martyrdom aren't mutually exclusive.

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Having a gun and using it to defend himself doesn't negate the fact he was a martyr as well.

mar·tyr –noun

1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.

3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.

yeah he used a pistol to try and defend himself, but he knew he was going to die. Days earlier he said "I go as a lamb to a slaughter." In a letter prior to his jailing at Carthage, he wrote to someone "If Hyrum and I are imprisoned again, we will be killed, or I am not a prophet of God."

He went willingly to Carthage knowing he wouldn't be returning. He accepted death, knowing that his work was done, and that he had to seal the testimony of the Book of Mormon with his blood. He is a martyr in that sense.

He was murdered in cold blood, by the mob as well.

Murder and Martyrdom aren't mutually exclusive.

So, according to your reasoning and definitions that you provide, David Koresh was also a martyr?

Joseph didn't 'willingly' go to Carthage until after he received the letter from Emma -- until he received that letter his immediate thoughts were probably to get as far away from Nauvoo as possible, but that's only speculation on my part, because I can't read his mind, but that seems to have been his intentions at the time.

What he did 'willingly' do was have members of the church destroy the printing press,.

So by commiting this act, he surely would have known that there would be immediate actions taken by the law. I don't think that you would have to be a prophet to realize that fact.

Joseph had a temper and I think acted on pure emotion as to destroying of the press. Some of the same problems that had haunted the saints in the past were coming to a boil in Nauvoo, and some of the things that were being said in the press article by some ex members of authority about polygamy etc. just caused Joseph to go off the deep end (IMO).

Yes, I have heard the so called famous quotes that Joseph made -- but we really don't know what was going on in Joseph's mind -- maybe initially he thought he could get out of this prediciment just like he had others -- but I suspect not. Because of the anger that had been building up with the locals, I'm sure he knew his time was at hand.

If Joseph would not have put up resistance to the mob by killing two and injuring others then yes, he would have been a martyr-- as it turns out, it was a slaughter.

So by the church building up this notion over the years of 'martyrdom' through hymns and not stating all of the fact's -- is just misleading. (IMO)

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David Koresh certainly was a martyr for his cause.

As was said, "martyr" is not tied solely to your belief of what it means. Read the posted definitions for it above. Joseph Smith certainly falls into that category.

In response to both questions posed, about Joseph being a martyr, and about him being the greatest prophet, one only needs to turn to D&C 135 to see the church's stance:

1 To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o’clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from 150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.

So, not only was Joseph Smith a martyr, but Hyrum was also. Two witnesses were required to seal the testament.

2 Corinthians 13:

1 ...In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Hebrews 9:

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

D&C 135:

5 ...The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force.

And, the second question:

3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

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There was a guy in the chatroom last night (I forget his nick) spouting on about how wonderful the Church/Joseph Smith/BoM all are, and then he said something which rather worried me. He said that Smith was given a "gift more precious than the Baby Jesus". I asked him what it was, and he said "the golden plates of course!"

Now I understand that (in the Mormon view anyway) these plates were pivotal to the re-establishment of the "true" Church on earth, and I understand also that "precious" is a subjective term. But it seems odd that any Christian should regard anyone or anything (particularly an inanimate object, however holy) above Our Lord Himself.

When I asked Roseslipper (who was also in the room at the time) she said she thought this guy might have been a nonmember trolling. It certainly sounds like it. But I'm interested to know if this idea makes any sense to anyone else. Any thoughts anyone?

no one with a proper understanding of the church and its doctrine would take that stance... I can see someone who doesn't understand being too gung-ho or overzealous and short sighted to make statements that are similar to that, but that doesn't happen too terribly often.

With online anonymity, I'd probably assume someon who was antagonistic towards the church in some way, or does not understand the church.

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So, according to your reasoning and definitions that you provide, David Koresh was also a martyr?

Joseph didn't 'willingly' go to Carthage until after he received the letter from Emma -- until he received that letter his immediate thoughts were probably to get as far away from Nauvoo as possible, but that's only speculation on my part, because I can't read his mind, but that seems to have been his intentions at the time.

What he did 'willingly' do was have members of the church destroy the printing press,.

So by commiting this act, he surely would have known that there would be immediate actions taken by the law. I don't think that you would have to be a prophet to realize that fact.

At the time, it actually wasn't quite so clear. There had been other cases of nuisance presses being destroyed throughout the country without any consequence.

Joseph had a temper and I think acted on pure emotion as to destroying of the press. Some of the same problems that had haunted the saints in the past were coming to a boil in Nauvoo, and some of the things that were being said in the press article by some ex members of authority about polygamy etc. just caused Joseph to go off the deep end (IMO).

It's very likely that while Smith and the saints thought they were within their rights to abolish the Nauvoo Expositor, having declared it a public nuisance, their enemies found in the action the cracked door they needed to get what they wanted. As you said, things had begun to boil over, and Smith's enemies would have made a mountain out of any molehill to get at him.

Yes, I have heard the so called famous quotes that Joseph made -- but we really don't know what was going on in Joseph's mind -- maybe initially he thought he could get out of this prediciment just like he had others -- but I suspect not. Because of the anger that had been building up with the locals, I'm sure he knew his time was at hand.

Some of his statements reported from opposite Nauvoo on the Mississippi would indicate he did know. If I recall correctly, he'd also sent word days prior to his capture that the Quorum of the Twelve needed to return to Nauvoo post-haste.

If Joseph would not have put up resistance to the mob by killing two and injuring others then yes, he would have been a martyr-- as it turns out, it was a slaughter.

So by the church building up this notion over the years of 'martyrdom' through hymns and not stating all of the fact's -- is just misleading. (IMO)

Martyrdom and murder are not mutually exclusive. He can be both murdered and martyred. What makes it a martyr is not the actions of the murdered, but the intent and reasoning behind the murderer. So I'd suggest that your analysis is not quite true to the meaning of the words.

So, while the points you make about Smith's contribution to his own death are perfectly valid, it's really hard to use those to argue that he wasn't a martyr.

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As far as Joseph Smith ordering the printing press to be destroyed, many thoughts come to mind.

The printing press was being used to print lies and promote a sense of hate and contention against church members. Had there been any "real" legal course of action I'm sure he would have pursued it.

Did destroying the press cause more harm than had they let it go on printing lies? Your guess is as good as mine. But, it was done in retaliation, or in answer to, things that were done, and being done, to members of the church where legal redress was not working. When a government fails to fairly address concerns and disputes brought before them in good faith, when it is their responsibility to do so, then they should expect citizens to take the law into their own hands. It becomes their only means of protection.

I can't even imagine what Joseph Smith would think of what our government has become.

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If Joseph would not have had the pistol and killed two and instead just been passive about it, then yes I would call it a martyrdom, but when he took defensive actions, then I just call it a slaughter.

Do you have any evidence that anyone was killed other than Joseph and Hyrum? All I know about is a statement by John Taylor that he had heard that some of the mob members were killed, but otherwise, I know of no actual record of any other deaths. As to Smith having a gun, yes he did defend himself, but he was in a jail. it wasn't like he was out to get them. He was a sitting duck. They were the aggressors. Please don't try to make the event out to be some bar fight. He had no choice but to defend his life. Also, remember that there were two friends at the jail visiting. Was Smith out for revenge, or was he protecting them, even sacrificing himself for their sake. I would say it was a very brave and honorable death.

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As far as Joseph Smith ordering the printing press to be destroyed, many thoughts come to mind.

The printing press was being used to print lies and promote a sense of hate and contention against church members. Had there been any "real" legal course of action I'm sure he would have pursued it.

Did destroying the press cause more harm than had they let it go on printing lies? Your guess is as good as mine. But, it was done in retaliation, or in answer to, things that were done, and being done, to members of the church where legal redress was not working. When a government fails to fairly address concerns and disputes brought before them in good faith, when it is their responsibility to do so, then they should expect citizens to take the law into their own hands. It becomes their only means of protection.

I can't even imagine what Joseph Smith would think of what our government has become.

Actually, there was legal presidence in the destruction of the printing press. First of all, it wasn't destroyed as much as it was shut down, and not just by Smith but by the city council who felt the content was such that it would instill more mob violence against the community of Nauvoo.

History of the Church of Jesus ... - Google Books

Dallin H. Oaks wrote a fairly extensive review of the legality of the actions of the city council. "The Suppression of the Nauvoo Expositor." Utah Law Review 9 (Winter 1965):862-903.

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