Protest for gay rights outside Mormon church offices


Heather
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I think people tend to use genetics as a cop out to justify their behavior. There have been no sicentific study's that I have seen that says same sex attraction is genetic. I do not believe it is genetic but a choice. In genetically identical twins, one is homosexual, there is only about a 50% chance the other will be also. So if it were based on genetics there would have to be a 100% chance because there genetic make up is supposedly the same.

And I noticed that anyone taking the stance that is not genetic seems to be getting attacked automatically, Justice its comments like yours that cause division, i can read those links and still come away and say 100% that no one is born gay and say the gay lifestyle is a sin. your proceeding from a false assumption that i have to accept some part of homosexuality be it feelings or whatever when I and people who have the same stance and opinion as I do, really do not. God does not make us homosexual, that is a corruption man puts on himself. Those attacks are pointless because at the end of this day at the end of this thread you still will not have changed my mind. Sorry not genetic in my unhumble opinion.

If you believe it's a choice and not genetic, then what of animals that are homosexual and perform those acts?

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I've read through this topic and all I can say is my heart aches for people who are homosexual and members of the Church. I do believe the Church and it's doctrine, but it makes my heart hurt because I cannot imagine what it must be like to have to live a life that must be so lonely at times. I love the intimate moments I have with my husband and would hate to never be able to experience that with another person.

Saying that I enjoyed President Packer's talk and did feel the spirit, I just wish people would take the time to really listen to what he was saying and not bring their own prejudices into it.

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If you believe it's a choice and not genetic, then what of animals that are homosexual and perform those acts?

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

God created those types of animals that way. But it wouldn't apply to humankind as it would therefore cosign their eternities to the realms outside of his kingdom.

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I love the intimate moments I have with my husband and would hate to never be able to experience that with another person.

Gay people can still experience intimacy with another of the opposite sex. It just requires a huge test of faith, which is not easy. The search for an individul miracle.

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God created those types of animals that way. But it wouldn't apply to humankind as it would therefore cosign their eternities to the realms outside of his kingdom.

Free will is what separates us from the animals. Being homosexual isn't what would "cosign their eternities to the realms outside of his kingdom." It is the act of homosexuality (as well as fornication) that does.

The question has to be asked though. Why would God create homosexual animals as well as human beings?

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Free will is what separates us from the animals. Being homosexual isn't what would "cosign their eternities to the realms outside of his kingdom." It is the act of homosexuality (as well as fornication) that does.

The question has to be asked though. Why would God create homosexual animals as well as human beings?

Don't speak for God.

Homosexual animals is not scietific proof or fact for genetically created homosexual humans.

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I never said that I speak for God but questions like these are good to ponder and pray about imo. (James 1:5)

You could throw almost every other human tragedy in there while you'll at it. Why do babies die at birth? Why are people born with retardation? Why are some born with no legs? Why are people born poor?

...why does god allow all this to happen?

Endurance. Acquiring Faith. Overcoming all and being perfected in 'all things'... maybe?

“We have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.” (Ariticle of Faith 1:13.)

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You could throw almost every other human tragedy in there while you'll at it. Why do babies die at birth? Why are people born with retardation? Why are some born with no legs? Why are people born poor?

...why does god allow all this to happen?

Endurance. Acquiring Faith. Overcoming all and being perfected in 'all things'... maybe?

“We have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.” (Ariticle of Faith 1:13.)

If God "allows" people to be born with no legs, or with mental retardation, or in war ravaged countries, why is it such a horrible thing to say that some might be born gay? There are a lot of "bad" things that people are born with that they have to deal with all their lives but we don't call them a sin. Jesus said the blind man wasn't blind because of his own sins or the sins of his parents, why can't the same be said for someone who has felt attracted to the same gender for as long as they remember? Why can't we just say "Okay, this is a challenge Heavenly Father has given you, let me help you and support you as you strive to not let it overwhelm you." Why do so many people seem to want to say "No you weren't born with it, so snap out of it." (which seems to be the attitude I run into a lot with the "No they weren't born that way" camp.)

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Where exactly did Pres. Packer treat those who control themselves like they were fornicating? I do not know any members who treat anyone as if they are fornicating??? This was a protest due to Pres. Packer's talk right? Packer did not encourage anyone to look down on those who are not sinning.

it's about controlling our thoughts too..

(Old Testament | Proverbs 23:7)

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:28)

28 ...hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

It is possible to control your thoughts.

I believe in being pro-active, ie, catching things and stopping them before any sins happen. In order to be pro-active, you have to understand the why's. I think there are some who just don't want to admit the "why's"...

There's a number of members on the forums that have shown there is no difference between being gay and acting on their desires. The older teachings of the church also lend themselves to this view, elder Packer himself was author of many of them. That however is not the current stance of the church yet some have issues with this line of thought.

There is a difference between controlling your thought are losing the ability to have attraction. Not all attraction is a sin being it does not all lead to lust. Again this is one of the huge issues. While a gay person might have an attraction they can control the extent of the the thought put into that attraction.

The issue with being proactive is, if there is biological factors you can't be proactive. Being proactive in that case would be changing fetuses or aborting them, which neither is approved from a church perspective. Teaching a person how to control themselves vs telling them they are wrong, not trying hard enough, or don't understand themselves serves no purpose, which is why the focus on controlling thought and behavior must be the focus rather than the bickering on where it comes from.

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I believe in being pro-active, ie, catching things and stopping them before any sins happen. In order to be pro-active, you have to understand the why's. I think there are some who just don't want to admit the "why's"...

Here is the biggest sin (yet to happen) and the reason I believe the brethern are very concerned and the church being much more aggressive in it's opposition to Gay Marriage: is the law of the land one day, forbiding any religious clergy from performing a gay marriage to a member of its denomination, where we'd see a homosexual couple being married in our chapel or even worst, the temple.

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I disagree (see junk food/ healthfood example above)

President Packer gave a talk on how we can control ourselves... on our agency...

example quote,

"The old saying “The Lord is voting for me, and Lucifer is voting against me, but it is my vote that counts” describes a doctrinal certainty that our agency is more powerful than the adversary’s will. Agency is precious. We can foolishly, blindly give it away, but it cannot be forcibly taken from us.

There is also an age-old excuse: “The devil made me do it.” Not so! He can deceive you and mislead you, but he does not have the power to force you or anyone else to transgress or to keep you in transgression."

No one is debating the ability to control the urges. you do get that right?

How do you proactively eliminate a biological aspect of a person with 100% assurance? The issue isn't control, there's no debate about control. Agency or lack there of is not any part of the debate. The entire context of this thread, yet again for those who seem to be missing it is people are calling the urges the sin, not the behavior. We all have urges we must control. That is not a sin. Yet there are a large number of members who say gay urges are just as sinful as gay sex, which is not the case. see nothing about agency or lack there of.

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If God "allows" people to be born with no legs, or with mental retardation, or in war ravaged countries, why is it such a horrible thing to say that some might be born gay? There are a lot of "bad" things that people are born with that they have to deal with all their lives but we don't call them a sin. Jesus said the blind man wasn't blind because of his own sins or the sins of his parents, why can't the same be said for someone who has felt attracted to the same gender for as long as they remember? Why can't we just say "Okay, this is a challenge Heavenly Father has given you, let me help you and support you as you strive to not let it overwhelm you." Why do so many people seem to want to say "No you weren't born with it, so snap out of it." (which seems to be the attitude I run into a lot with the "No they weren't born that way" camp.)

It is called a sin, because God states it clearly throughout the scriptures and the word of his prophets, and has been constituted into the fabric of this world.

I am not buying this argument that the members of the church are mean, hurtful, and unsupportive when it comes to gay people. I believe that is not true to the overall membership.

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It is called a sin, because God states it clearly throughout the scriptures and the word of his prophets, and has been constituted into the fabric of this world.

I am not buying this argument that the members of the church are mean, hurtful, and unsupportive when it comes to gay people. I believe that is not true to the overall membership.

Please list these scriptures that speak of being attracted to the same sex without any action following it a sin. Being attracted to the same sex is not a sin; acting on those feelings are. If you can find any Scripture that speak of the contrary, I would love to hear it.

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That is not a sin. Yet there are a large number of members who say gay urges are just as sinful as gay sex, which is not the case. see nothing about agency or lack there of.

If I am thinking inappropiately about another mans wife?

Don't you think I should repent and replace those thoughts with a lifestyle change?

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Where did President Packer call the urge a sin? There was nothing in his talk to throw a protest about.

And for the i don't know how many times that it's been repeated in this thread that i know you have read from start to finish. I have no issue with Elder Packers talk. Yes members on this site and who i know in life see one line from the talk as a solid statement that there is NO biological factors. When this was taught in the past in the church members didn't divide between the urges and the actual actions and treated both equal. There is nothing wrong with the talk on the surface but it's wording had rallied a large number of the members to KNOW 100% there is no biological factor and being gay is 100% choice that can be changed without doubt if people have enough faith. This has been proven wrong. They can control it with faith, yes. Less than 25% have successfully changed and even less than 25% have stayed changed.

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If I am thinking inappropiately about another mans wife?

Don't you think I should repent and replace those thoughts with a lifestyle change?

So you say all attraction is a sin? there is a difference between attraction and lust. If you lust at a mans wife that is a sin, if you appreciate her beauty it's not. Every time you notice a beautiful woman you sin is the argument you are making, which doesn't sound right.

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I've already posted these:

(Old Testament | Proverbs 23:7)

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:28 - 30)

hath committed adultery already in his heart.

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer anone of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your across, than that ye should be cast into hell.

again, we can all learn to control our thoughts.

read ya'll later.

President Packer said nothing wrong. Again, there was no reason to throw a protest.

I'm not saying that thinking lustful thoughts are not a sin. They are most definitely sin as well. What I am saying is those that are attracted to the same sex is not a sin in itself. Just because one is attracted to the same sex doesn't mean they are thinking lustful thoughts about the same sex just as those that are attracted to the opposite sex doesn't mean they are thinking lustful thoughts as well.

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So you say all attraction is a sin? there is a difference between attraction and lust. If you lust at a mans wife that is a sin, if you appreciate her beauty it's not. Every time you notice a beautiful woman you sin is the argument you are making, which doesn't sound right.

I like being with males, does not mean I'm gay so it depends on the type of attraction. If it's a sexual attraction and that sexual attraction is outside Gods commandments - then it's a sinful one, if its a general attraction, then obviously it isnt.

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I like being with males, does not mean I'm gay so it depends on the type of attraction. If it's a sexual attraction and that sexual attraction is outside Gods commandments - then it's a sinful one, if its a general attraction, then obviously it isnt.

So every time you look at a beautiful woman you aren't married to you are sinning. Good to know.

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I'm not saying that thinking lustful thoughts are not a sin. They are most definitely sin as well. What I am saying is those that are attracted to the same sex is not a sin in itself.

If it is a 'sexual' thought of a homosexual nature involving an intimate yet sinful act then it is no less sinful than that of a man sexually attracted to or possesing intimate thoughts of another mans wife, adultry.

I believe any contemplation of any kinds of immorality are repent worthy.

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So as long as there is no lust in the intent all is good, which was what was already said and you took exception to.

Not just lust, the contemplation of any sinful act, period. Be it, murder, adultry, incest, theivery, and even homosexuality.

You cant have it both ways.

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Not just lust, the contemplation of any sinful act, period. Be it, murder, adultry, incest, theivery, and even homosexuality.

You cant have it both ways.

But the sin of homosexuality is lust outside of marriage, that's the only sinful part of it according to the church. Been repeated many times by Dallin Oaks, President Hinkley and others. So if there is no lust, there is no sin, the Previous prophet and many speakers have all made this very clear.

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