Need assistance with an investigator


pam
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Due to a very slow night at work, a coworker and I got into a discussion of religion. Well actually there was a 3rd coworker (return RM) who was confusing the heck out of him and of me.

He is Catholic and is adamant that he will not change religions. I told him that was just fine. But he was very willing to listen to what I had to tell him about the LDS religion.

Surprisingly he asked me to tell him the Joseph Smith story. I did. He has now asked me to bring him a copy of the Book of Mormon which I will do tonight.

Now this is where I need the assistance. He had a rather uncomfortable encounter with some LDS missionaries that left a bad impression.

Being Catholic, he of course, prays to the Virgin Mary and other Saints. Also being from Mexico, he mainly prays to Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe. The missionaries told him that was wrong and that he needed to stop. Wrong answer to give a man that has been Catholic all his life.

His question: If we are to pray only to God, explain why do good things happen when we pray to the Saints or to the Virgin Mary?

His other issue was: How do you explain Jesus' face or the Virgin Mary's face appearing on objects. He claims he went to a tree in the SLC area had the Virgin Mary's face and had tears coming from the eyes. I remember hearing about this myself though I didn't go to check it out.

I would like to figure out how best to answer his questions without putting down his beliefs or the Catholic religion but yet get him to understand where we are coming from.

I hope I have explained this well enough. I'm not familiar enough with Catholicism.

Edited by pam
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This is a tricky issue, Pam. You're talking about something that is deeply engrained.

The first thing to remember is that a Catholic, though praying to Saints, are not worshipping Saints. They are praying to them for intercession - That is, that they will use their good deeds on behalf of the person praying.

Forget arguing about idolatry, that doesn't work. Instead, simply say something akin to: "The LDS church believes very firmly that God loves all His children - Both the famous and the obscure, the loud and the silent. We believe that God will listen to His children without need of another to intercede."

If he presses on the question of, 'Why do good things happen to people who pray to the Virgin Mary.', there are several things you can say, but I hesitate to put them as they may be construed as bashing.

1) The LDS church believes in returning to the form that Jesus had. His most famous prayer began, 'Our father who art in heaven' - It was a direct prayer to God, rather than his mother or John the Baptist or Moses or the Patriarch.

2) God knows the heart of His followers. If someone desires something, they can pray and God will hear regardless of who the person prays to. Proverbs 15:3 - The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Basically, you're in a tough spot. This is something he's accepted for a very long time. Don't try to bash. It'll only make him defensive. Instead, simply say what you know to be true - That God lives, that you have seen His miracles when directly praying to him and that your church loves Him with all its heart and soul and mind.

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My primary suggestion would be to stop thinking of it as praying to the Virgin Mary or to saints and instead think of it like you do when you kneel down and pray as you do. The thinking is really not that different. You pray to Heavenly Father, but do it in the name of Christ and most likely have asked for the assistance of the Holy Ghost in you life or the life of others in some way. You would not say that you pray to Christ or to the Holy Ghost, although you are not really doing anything all that different that what a Catholic does in their prayer. They are praying to the Lord in the name of Mary or some other saint and asking for that persons assistance in some way.

No, it is not exactly the same, but seeing the similarity and using that as the starting point of explaining the difference will work better in my oppinion. I am a former Catholic who has a deep understanding of Catholic tradition and doctrine; and have found that much of what Catholics do has been passed down from the early Church that Christ founded. As such, they had it right at one point and have distorted and chaged things over the past almost two millenia. But, this means that there is a base of truth that you can go back to. In being converted myself, I found that being told I was wrong did little to help change my heart or mind, but being told the truth and being allowed to see how it better explained things and fit what the Spirit told me helped a lot more.

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As much as we in modern times demonize the Scribes and the Pharisees in the time of Jesus there would not be a Bible today without them. Not everything that was taught by the Scribes and Pharisees was demonic – there was much good that came about because of the Scribes and Pharisees. However, they did very carefully lead many (everyone that followed them) away from Christ.

I would say to encourage him to read the Book of Mormon, highlight some scriptures that you have found important – like Moroni chapter 10 (verses 4-5 are often referenced but the entire chapter carries a powerful message – verse 18, I think applies.)

I feel strongly that we should not teach so much against anything but rather teach of that which is true.

The Traveler

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i like funky's suggestions. on the prayer i thought about the fact that often many ppl pray, even those that don't really know who god is. just a silent pleading to a higher power. if we pray in faith, even if that prayer isn't said perfectly, god hears us.

another principle that might help you to explain things without an attack is that god knows us, he will reach out to us in ways we are able to listen. how we are raised and where in the world we live and sometimes even our economic status will alter how we are able to see and hear god in our lives. it's a little different for everyone, it's very personal. what is evidence to me that there is a god that is aware of me may not be evidence to you that it's true.

i often also like to remind ppl that though we believe we have the fullness of the gospel that the final judgment is personal. god will not judge someone that is catholic and never received a witness of anything else by the same standards as a member of the lds faith. he will judge them on what they did with what they knew. i think it was monson that quoted mother teresa recently. we have respect and appreciation for ppl that seek knowledge and seek to do god's will as they have received a witness of it. no one will be damned for following god as best as they know how. we believe in a very loving and personal god.

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I suggest Alma 29:8. God gives to all people the amount of truth and light they are ready to receive. There is nothing wrong with honoring and adoring the Virgin Mary, as Nephi spoke wonderfully about her in the Vision of the Tree of Life. However, there is a higher and more effective way, and that is to pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Christ.

Miracles can happen to all believers, but greater miracles occur to those who are following God's teachings and doctrines more correctly.

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My general take on things: If he finds miracles and blessings and truth coming from the Catholic church - then hooray. Miracles and blessings and truth are all good things. The world owes the Catholics an unpayable debt for preserving the Bible as well as they did. They're good people.

It's just that we're Christ's church. I got no arguments or proofs to offer, I got no way to convince him. The only way he'll ever be convinced is when he's on his knees and the Holy Ghost lets him know the truth. We don't win converts through superior mastery of the facts or better ways of letting people know they're wrong. Christ wins converts who seek Him in earnest, following that section of the BoM.

LM

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His question: If we are to pray only to God, explain why do good things happen when we pray to the Saints or to the Virgin Mary?

You could just as easily ask him, why do good things happen to those who don't pray at all? Or to those who do bad things? There is not a direct link between prayer and good things, or doing good and good things, which is a difficult concept for many to understand. Yes, the Lord rewards the righteous. Yes, the Lord answers prayers. But in His own time, and in His own way. He will not permit rain to fall only on the wicked or the sun to shine only on the righteous. We are all subject to experiencing the good and the bad.

Pulling from what funky said- Catholics pray to Saints for intercession. This is not "wrong" (as the missionaries told him) insomuch as it is flawed or incomplete. The Saints are not capable of providing intercession for anyone. Only Christ can do that. He is the Only Way to God. This is why we pray "in the name of Jesus Christ". He is our intercessor. We pray directly to God, invoking the name of Christ as our mediator. This is similar to Catholic prayers to Saints, because Catholics had the right idea. It just got thrown off a little bit.

His other issue was: How do you explain Jesus' face or the Virgin Mary's face appearing on objects. He claims he went to a tree in the SLC area had the Virgin Mary's face and had tears coming from the eyes. I remember hearing about this myself though I didn't go to check it out.

Most of the time? I'd call it coincidence. As anyone who's spent time looking at ink blots can tell you, you can see just about anything you want to see out of something that has absolutely nothing hidden in it at all. One person says they see Christ or the Virgin Mary on something, and suddenly everyone sees it. The brain will impose what we want to see on an obscure object, especially if we've trained it to do so making clouds into puppies and kittens ;) .

However, I would not knock off all occassions of divine images this way. There are certainly some that could very likely be explained by true divinity. I would explain these the same way any personal revelation should be explained. Each occassion that could be attributed to divinity was meant as a message to a particular individual. Only that person can offer an accurate explanation as to the nature and purpose of the message. It is personal. It is sacred. It is meant to be kept personal and sacred, shared only with those whom the spirit inspires the person to share. Unfortunately, the sanctity of many of these messages is destroyed when made public.

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I don't think, as a Mormon, we have to disavow all supernatural events that occur outside of the auspices of our church. The key is Moroni 7:16-17:

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

If he's reasonably well-informed, I should think he would probably agree with you that some people, at least, take entirely the wrong message from such events; and that at least a few such reported events are based on less-than-reliable testimonies. As long as he understands the need to be cautious, and the primacy of Jesus Christ; I don't see a need for him to renounce every "miracle" he's ever heard about as complete bunkum.

The Lord speaks to people in their own tongue/language. If a Catholic expects God to reveal Himself through tears on a statute or blood on a cloth or what have you--maybe He will.

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We should not diminish the spiritual experiences of those outside our faith. often those experiences lead people to the restored gospel. I remember talking to my sister in law who was investigating the church, and she didn't understand why she had to be baptized again, because her protestant baptism was a very important and spiritual experience to her. I firmly believe her baptism did grant her forgiveness of her sins, but I said baptism in the LDS faith has another purpose which is to gain entrance into the church. When the church was organized in 1830, those who were baptized for the remission of sin, were rebaptized into the newly formed church. Second, we bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands after baptism, something few if any other churches do.

The 13th article of faith says "anything virtuous, lovely or of good report, we seek after these things." So we should not diminish things others have found to be joyful in their previous worship. Yes, he will have to adjust his worship a bit , if he were to join the church, but he has done wonderfully given the knowledge he has, and that should be praised.

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Second, we bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands after baptism, something few if any other churches do.

Sorry but you're totally wrong. In the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Orthodox and some other churches, confirmation involves receiving the Holy Ghost, typically through anointing and laying on of hands by the bishop (or equivalent minister in churches that don't have bishops). The details differ from those of the Mormonism, but the gist of the ceremony is quite similar.

There is one important difference, which is that in Anglicanism children born into the church are usually baptised as infants and confirmed when they reach 12. However, adult converts are often confirmed immediately after baptism, much as they are in the LDS church.

Edited by Jamie123
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{edited to add} Oops sorry, I didn't realize this had gone to 2 pages (blush)

Funky Town took the words out of my mouth. Catholics aren't idolaters, and don't pray TO the saints. That's just a protestant mis-understanding.

Yes, be careful if he's had a bad experience with some misinformed missionaries. My wife had a bad experience with some sister missionaries and it almost destroyed any interest she had in joining the Church.

My family is VERY religiously diverse. We consist of Catholics, Baptists, Methodist's and Mormons, but mostly Catholics and Mormons, and yet we all sit at the same Thanksgiving table together. No eyebrows are raised when the Catholics cross themselves before the prayer (in fact, I would be disappointed if they didn't. If your going to subscribe to a religion, PRACTICE it!).

I have long believed that we can all learn from each other and have tried to get many Catholics interested in Family Home Evening and Food Storage (and succeeded in some cases).

I know I'm wandering off topic here a bit, but my all-time favorite Catholic story is the story of the Miraculous Medal.

I don't remember the whole story, but when the BVM appeared to Saint Catherine, she was standing on a globe with her arms outstretched and bright rays and dark rays eminating from her fingertips.

When Saint Catherine asked what the rays were, Mary answered "Those are blessings granted to those who ask for them". When she asked what the dark ray's were she replied "Those are blessings for which no-one has asked".

I always took the moral of the story to mean that there are always blessings awaiting those who ask, we just need to remember to ask for them.

In fact, that is one of the reasons for the Miraculous Medal. It's not a "charm" or anything as some protestants would have everyone believe, but just a simple reminder to pray. I have one that my sister gave me that was blessed by her priest, and though I'm LDS and always will be, I never take it off. It simply reminds me to pray.

Edited by Raven21633
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This is a tricky issue, Pam. You're talking about something that is deeply engrained.

The first thing to remember is that a Catholic, though praying to Saints, are not worshipping Saints. They are praying to them for intercession - That is, that they will use their good deeds on behalf of the person praying.

Forget arguing about idolatry, that doesn't work. Instead, simply say something akin to: "The LDS church believes very firmly that God loves all His children - Both the famous and the obscure, the loud and the silent. We believe that God will listen to His children without need of another to intercede."

If he presses on the question of, 'Why do good things happen to people who pray to the Virgin Mary.', there are several things you can say, but I hesitate to put them as they may be construed as bashing.

1) The LDS church believes in returning to the form that Jesus had. His most famous prayer began, 'Our father who art in heaven' - It was a direct prayer to God, rather than his mother or John the Baptist or Moses or the Patriarch.

2) God knows the heart of His followers. If someone desires something, they can pray and God will hear regardless of who the person prays to. Proverbs 15:3 - The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Basically, you're in a tough spot. This is something he's accepted for a very long time. Don't try to bash. It'll only make him defensive. Instead, simply say what you know to be true - That God lives, that you have seen His miracles when directly praying to him and that your church loves Him with all its heart and soul and mind.

This is probably the closest of the responses to what I have already done. I will in no way put him down for his beliefs. I totally respect that and I think he knows that I do.

I asked him a lot of questions about what Catholics believe with Saints etc to understand more to better answer his questions.

The problem I am having is the return missionary that also sits with us that keeps interrupting me to answer questions. The other problem is he is not answering questions. He's asking questions back that can appear to be judgemental etc. GRRRRRRR

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Talk to the RM and give him counsel. Tell him your concerns. Remind him that it is the responsibility of the full time current missionaries to teach, etc., not his. He is only there as a chaperone.

You may also share your concerns with the full time elders, and see if perhaps someone else can be used instead.

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Catholics aren't idolaters, and don't pray TO the saints. That's just a protestant mis-understanding.

We talked at length over this and he did say they pray TO the Saints.

If he presses on the question of, 'Why do good things happen to people who pray to the Virgin Mary.', there are several things you can say, but I hesitate to put them as they may be construed as bashing.

Thank you. That was the last thing I wanted was this thread to turn into anything negative towards our Catholic brothers and sisters.

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Talk to the RM and give him counsel. Tell him your concerns. Remind him that it is the responsibility of the full time current missionaries to teach, etc., not his. He is only there as a chaperone.

You may also share your concerns with the full time elders, and see if perhaps someone else can be used instead.

At this point he doesn't want to talk to the full time missionaries. He is only asking me basic questions. You don't know this RM. lol He is never wrong.

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Perhaps the reason Catholics invoke prayer to 'others' they believe are in heaven is to help get another word in to God about their prayer request. The best thing may be to express your trust in the words of Jesus, that the Father does hear our prayers and that since this is what Jesus taught, that you have full trust in the teachings of Jesus being fully true. If he asks questions, maybe you could invite him to show you any examples where Jesus taught otherwise? If he's willing to see what Jesus said, that should be all the help he needs to see the truth.

Makes sense to me anyway:-)

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At this point he doesn't want to talk to the full time missionaries. He is only asking me basic questions. You don't know this RM. lol He is never wrong.

So, try to talk to your friend without Mr. Know It All RM there. Is that possible? Or tell your friend you'd love to discuss this more in a setting more conducive to talking (restaurant, break room, on the other side of the world from RM).

For me, whenever I come across someone who wants to know more about the church from a purely curiosity setting, I find that if we simply exchange information there is no pressure and rarely arguements or contention. As others have said, truth is truth so simply telling him your beliefs and confirming his truths ("I believe that too!" "That is a true statement.") is a way for the Spirit to testify. We don't always have to bear testimony by using the words, "I want to bear my testimony. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." The Spirit will testify of truth, even without those words. ;)

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Well, I have a little bit of experience in talking to Catholics about our faith. I might have even helped bring one into our faith (although, truth be told it was many people in my ward), you see, my wife was Catholic. She swore up and down that she would never change religions. Well, we were recently sealed, and every so often I remind that she should never say never.

So here a few things I learned;

First, do not ever, EVER tell someone from a different religion that their beliefs make it so they cannot feel the Holy Ghost. Several years ago my wife and I were in the gospel essentials class, and a lady said that she had recently been to a Catholic Funneral and that the spirit definatly was not there, and that as far as she was concerned, a funneral had to be LDS to have the spirit there. This was a few weeks after my wife burried her brother, and them being catholic, it was a catholic funneral. Now no doctorine that I can find from the church states that our services alone have access to the spirit. Rather, we are told that all are able to feel the influence of the spirit at different times.

Second, don't let anyone tell your investigator that certain traditions of the Catholic faith are sacriligeous. My wife still lights prayer candles, because it was how she grew up. The difference is now she gets and lights the ones that don't have pre printed prayers on the sides. No where are we told that lighting a candle when we pray is offensive to Heavenly Father, rather we are told that we should pray often and sincerely. Just because a tradition seems odd to us, it doesn't make it wrong or bad.

Third, it is ok if good things happen as a result of faith displayed by those who are not members of our church. For years now, it has struck me as odd how many different members of our church seem to think that blessings coming from acts of faith (such as praying) only come to righteous members of our church. Do these people not realize that we ask every nonmember to pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith? If Heavenly Father only answered prayers of members, then these people would never receive an answer. The point is, whether praying to Heavenly Father through a saint, or through our Savior, good things happen to people of all faiths.

I hope these are benneficial. These are all things that would seem like no brainers, but all came up when my wife was investigating. And no matter how hard I tried, it always seemed like the wrong person said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

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So, try to talk to your friend without Mr. Know It All RM there. Is that possible? Or tell your friend you'd love to discuss this more in a setting more conducive to talking (restaurant, break room, on the other side of the world from RM).

For me, whenever I come across someone who wants to know more about the church from a purely curiosity setting, I find that if we simply exchange information there is no pressure and rarely arguements or contention. As others have said, truth is truth so simply telling him your beliefs and confirming his truths ("I believe that too!" "That is a true statement.") is a way for the Spirit to testify. We don't always have to bear testimony by using the words, "I want to bear my testimony. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." The Spirit will testify of truth, even without those words. ;)

We have a couple of hours alone that we are the only 2 there. So that helps. It's pretty much been just conversation. I'm learning from him and he is learning from me.

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Well, I have a little bit of experience in talking to Catholics about our faith. I might have even helped bring one into our faith (although, truth be told it was many people in my ward), you see, my wife was Catholic. She swore up and down that she would never change religions. Well, we were recently sealed, and every so often I remind that she should never say never.

So here a few things I learned;

First, do not ever, EVER tell someone from a different religion that their beliefs make it so they cannot feel the Holy Ghost. Several years ago my wife and I were in the gospel essentials class, and a lady said that she had recently been to a Catholic Funneral and that the spirit definatly was not there, and that as far as she was concerned, a funneral had to be LDS to have the spirit there. This was a few weeks after my wife burried her brother, and them being catholic, it was a catholic funneral. Now no doctorine that I can find from the church states that our services alone have access to the spirit. Rather, we are told that all are able to feel the influence of the spirit at different times.

Second, don't let anyone tell your investigator that certain traditions of the Catholic faith are sacriligeous. My wife still lights prayer candles, because it was how she grew up. The difference is now she gets and lights the ones that don't have pre printed prayers on the sides. No where are we told that lighting a candle when we pray is offensive to Heavenly Father, rather we are told that we should pray often and sincerely. Just because a tradition seems odd to us, it doesn't make it wrong or bad.

Third, it is ok if good things happen as a result of faith displayed by those who are not members of our church. For years now, it has struck me as odd how many different members of our church seem to think that blessings coming from acts of faith (such as praying) only come to righteous members of our church. Do these people not realize that we ask every nonmember to pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith? If Heavenly Father only answered prayers of members, then these people would never receive an answer. The point is, whether praying to Heavenly Father through a saint, or through our Savior, good things happen to people of all faiths.

I hope these are benneficial. These are all things that would seem like no brainers, but all came up when my wife was investigating. And no matter how hard I tried, it always seemed like the wrong person said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Very good insights. I also know people who God had lead through different churches before he finally lead them to the LDS church, because otherwise they would not have believed it nor would have been as strong in it. God does things in his own time and way... His sheep will hear his call at some point.

Traditions are fine, the test and trial of traditions is to not let them get in the way of having your eye single to the glory of Christ (and keeping his commandments) this is something the LDS have to be on guard for as well as Catholics or anyone from any sect

Also if you pay attention to Christ in the gospel, his way was not going around proving others wrong, or decrying their sins... and about the only time he ever did that was when he was confronted by such people.

Edited by Blackmarch
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Also if you pay attention to Christ in the gospel, his way was not going around proving others wrong, or decrying their sins... and about the only time he ever did that was when he was confronted by such people.

Or when he cleaned out the temple of the moneychangers.

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At this point he doesn't want to talk to the full time missionaries. He is only asking me basic questions. You don't know this RM. lol He is never wrong.

The tell your RCC friend that the RM is a "know it all' that thinks he knows everything - but doesn't. we all know people like that, he should understand.
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