Need assistance with an investigator

[Jamie123]

Several years ago my wife and I were in the gospel essentials class, and a lady said that she had recently been to a Catholic Funneral and that the spirit definatly was not there, and that as far as she was concerned, a funneral had to be LDS to have the spirit there.

Some 20 years ago when I used to attend LDS meetings, I heard a lot of strange things about what you might call "Mormon exclusivity". On one occasion a woman stood up to talk and - having droned on about how her co-workers gave her a hard time for not drinking tea and coffee - went on to say that it's ONLY the Mormons who ever had to put up with this sort of thing. (She said this several times, with greater emphasis on each repetition.) No one voiced any disagreement, but I thought this was rather offensive to people of other faiths who are persecuted for their religion. I bit my tongue though: As an investigator I was already a thorn in the missionaries' flesh, but I wasn't quite ready to be thrown out and banned.

For years now, it has struck me as odd how many different members of our church seem to think that blessings coming from acts of faith (such as praying) only come to righteous members of our church. Do these people not realize that we ask every nonmember to pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith?

I read once (admittedly in an anti-Mormon book) that Mormons believe the Holy Spirit will only answer a nonmember's prayers in the specific matter of whether the Book of Mormon is true. The Spirit will only return to that person after they are baptised and confirmed in the Mormon Church. I don't know if there's any basis in this, but it seems to fit with what the officiator said at the only Mormon baptism/confirmation I've ever attended. (He said something like "The Spirit has visited you, but now He will return to dwell with you" - though there may be nuances in the exact wording that I'm missing). On the other hand, the missionaries on their first ever visit told me that the Spirit was working in other churches...

Mormon beliefs are certainly difficult to untangle, and (if you'll forgive me for saying so) I think many Church members are as confused as anyone!

P.S. Having thought about my last remark, it probably goes for every other religion too: I'm reminded of that scene towards the end of Brideshead Revisited where the agnostic Charles asks his Catholic friends explain the purpose of the Last Rites, and gets more of a heated debate than an answer.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Jamie123
Afterthought

[rameumptom]

Perhaps the reason Catholics invoke prayer to 'others' they believe are in heaven is to help get another word in to God about their prayer request. The best thing may be to express your trust in the words of Jesus, that the Father does hear our prayers and that since this is what Jesus taught, that you have full trust in the teachings of Jesus being fully true. If he asks questions, maybe you could invite him to show you any examples where Jesus taught otherwise? If he's willing to see what Jesus said, that should be all the help he needs to see the truth.

Makes sense to me anyway:-)

Catholics invoke prayers to the Virgin and to Saints because they believe these individuals were exceptionally righteous and worthy in life, to the extent that they had an abundance of blessings and spiritual strength left over. They petition the Saint to share some of their overage of blessings with them, or that they petition God on their behalf based upon their status and not on our own.

While not worshiped here in the USA, they essentially take the place of Jesus Christ as their Mediator for that one petition. Yet they understand it is still Christ who is the Great Mediator.

I would look at it in the sense of the early days of the Church, where members would petition Joseph Smith to pray on their behalf for a revelation, rather than seeking one of their own. Even today, how many LDS members, when they need a priesthood blessing, call upon the bishop because they think the bishop has some special priesthood gift that their hometeacher does not have.

Such prayers through the Saints were beneficial at one point in the average Catholic's life, but eventually we can graduate to receive blessings from a more direct source to God. It works on Elder Oak's concept of "Good, Better, Best."

[Mute]

Due to a very slow night at work, a coworker and I got into a discussion of religion. Well actually there was a 3rd coworker (return RM) who was confusing the heck out of him and of me.

He is Catholic and is adamant that he will not change religions. I told him that was just fine. But he was very willing to listen to what I had to tell him about the LDS religion.

Surprisingly he asked me to tell him the Joseph Smith story. I did. He has now asked me to bring him a copy of the Book of Mormon which I will do tonight.

Now this is where I need the assistance. He had a rather uncomfortable encounter with some LDS missionaries that left a bad impression.

Being Catholic, he of course, prays to the Virgin Mary and other Saints. Also being from Mexico, he mainly prays to Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe. The missionaries told him that was wrong and that he needed to stop. Wrong answer to give a man that has been Catholic all his life.

His question: If we are to pray only to God, explain why do good things happen when we pray to the Saints or to the Virgin Mary?

His other issue was: How do you explain Jesus' face or the Virgin Mary's face appearing on objects. He claims he went to a tree in the SLC area had the Virgin Mary's face and had tears coming from the eyes. I remember hearing about this myself though I didn't go to check it out.

I would like to figure out how best to answer his questions without putting down his beliefs or the Catholic religion but yet get him to understand where we are coming from.

I hope I have explained this well enough. I'm not familiar enough with Catholicism.

Good things happen when you don't pray at all. You could ask the same question of why do good things happen when I pray to God? It would help if you knew what these good things were though. You can't prove one way or the other. If believing in Mary is something which he believes in and which makes him feel better, then perhaps he notices good things more when he prays. If you're looking for good things to happen, chances are you're going to find them. I wouldn't dispute with him whether or not Mary is the cause of it and I would never tell him he's wrong in his beliefs. Maybe you could ask him more about why he believes as he does. You could even tell him why you believe as you do. What do you believe in regards to his statement? Do you believe it's just a coincidence good things happen to him or do you believe it's really God helping him instead of Mary? I would give him a copy of the Book of Mormon like you planed and see what he thinks of it. Remember, there is no harm in simply saying you don't know the answer to something.

How do you explain Michael Jackson's face being in a cloud or in a reflection on a car? Is there some divine meaning behind it or is it just a coincidence that something happens to be in a vaguely similar shape to something a person recognizes? There are no actual photos of Mary to go by. Was this something divine or was there another explanation involved? People see what they want to see and then they imply meaning to it. I would just give him the Book of Mormon and see how he feels after praying about whether or not it's the word of God. Other than that, I'm really not sure.

[cathyyg]

People pray 'in the name of Christ' all the time. I fail to see the difference.. it's really the exact same concept.

No, it's not the same concept. Catholics pray to Mary and other saints, to ask for their intercession. To put it crudely, they are saying "Mom, could you ask Dad if <insert reason for prayer>. They aren't asking in Mary's name, they are asking Mary to ask God. The Catholic belief is that Mary and the saints are already in heaven. The proof of them being already in heaven is the miracles that must be performed by them before their canonization, i.e. elevation to saint status. Being in heaven, they have better/more immediate access to God than we on earth do. The saints are able to hear our prayers, unlike ordinary dead people who are merely dead, not in heaven. This is what is meant by "the Communion of Saints" line in the Apostle's Creed.

Latin Catholics have a very strong devotion to the Virgin, particularly Our Lady of Guadalupe. This devotion is nothing sacrilegious or idolatrous; as one Catholic once said, "how could we ever honor Mary more than God himself did already?" After all, Jesus performed his first miracle at her request, turning the water to wine at the wedding in Cana. Praying to Mary is also an act of humility; you aren't wanting to bother God directly with your petty issues.

You are right that this is a very hard issue to deal with. Mary is a big deal in the Bible, but Mormons tend to depend more on the Book of Mormon than the Bible. If you don't believe me, compare how many people have read the entire Book of Mormon with how many have read the entire Bible, even though the LDS Church says it is scripture, too, albeit sometimes badly translated.

Having the investigator read the Book of Mormon is about the only thing I can think of that might be helpful. Make sure they know what the book is about, the pre-history of the Americas. One reason Our Lady of Guadalupe is so popular is because she appeared to a peasant of aboriginal descent, not a higher class person of Spanish descent.

[bytebear]

You are right that this is a very hard issue to deal with. Mary is a big deal in the Bible, but Mormons tend to depend more on the Book of Mormon than the Bible. If you don't believe me, compare how many people have read the entire Book of Mormon with how many have read the entire Bible, even though the LDS Church says it is scripture, too, albeit sometimes badly translated.

I think this is a common perception, but I don't think it's true. The Bible is like 4 times as thick as the Book of Mormon, so reading it cover to cover takes more time, and much of the OT is hard to trudge through. For example, you really can't read Psalms or Proverbs like a book since it's just a collection of poems or anecdotes.

In study, the LDS church has a cycling four year program: Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Church History. So in regards to study, the Church devotes twice as much time studying the Bible than the Book of Mormon. And given the ties to OT prophecy, Mormons do emphasize things other churches tend to skip over. Isaiah is a big one, as are studies of ancient Temples, and Hebraic covenants.

Finally, I think a lot of Mormons have read the Bible cover to cover. I know I have, and often re-read the NT often. That recent poll shows Mormons know their Bible, and I believe they can go toe to toe with those of other faiths in Bible knowledge, often more so, particularly with active LDS Youth who I think get a much deeper understanding of the Bible than their counterparts and certainly more than their less religious contemporaries.

[john doe]

I think this is a common perception, but I don't think it's true. The Bible is like 4 times as thick as the Book of Mormon, so reading it cover to cover takes more time, and much of the OT is hard to trudge through. For example, you really can't read Psalms or Proverbs like a book since it's just a collection of poems or anecdotes.

In study, the LDS church has a cycling four year program: Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Church History. So in regards to study, the Church devotes twice as much time studying the Bible than the Book of Mormon. And given the ties to OT prophecy, Mormons do emphasize things other churches tend to skip over. Isaiah is a big one, as are studies of ancient Temples, and Hebraic covenants.

Finally, I think a lot of Mormons have read the Bible cover to cover. I know I have, and often re-read the NT often. That recent poll shows Mormons know their Bible, and I believe they can go toe to toe with those of other faiths in Bible knowledge, often more so, particularly with active LDS Youth who I think get a much deeper understanding of the Bible than their counterparts and certainly more than their less religious contemporaries.

I think you missed her point. She's addressing it from a non-LDS view, you're looking at it from an LDS view. I believe that when she talks about people reading both books, she is comparing the number of non-LDS who have read the Book of Mormon as compared to how many have read the Bible.

[spamlds]

There is a gap of understanding on what prayer is with many Catholics. They have wonderful faith in Christ and they seek to be obedient to the commandments as they understand them. They, like us, have great respect for the principle of authority.

I served a mission in France, where 90 percent of the people were Catholic and 90 percent of them never went to services again after their first communion. Catholics have been taught to pray rote prayers. They say the Our Father or Hail Mary or any number of prayers that are always constructed for them. They have not been taught to approach Heavenly Father directly in prayer.

When you ask them to pray about the Book of Mormon, they get confused, because they don't have a prayer written for them to say. When we taught them in their homes, we would diplomatically try to teach them that special needs require prayers from the heart. Your friend, very literally, may not know how to pray and listen for an answer. His experience has been to pray a novena to St. Jude or some other saint and then wait for a "sign" to occur.

The best thing you could do is to invite him into your home or to a church meeting, where he can hear prayers offered from the heart and be taught how the Spirit communicates and guides us. Let him know that good things happen because of his faith in God. We build on faith. We don't demolish it and then rebuild.

For many people, it takes years for them to shed the sectarian notions they have learned. They become faithful members of the Church, but the "old leaven" gets purged out over time. I once heard a district president's wife in France say in a district conference that she still prayed to Mary from time to time because she had such esteem for the Lord's mother and it comforted her. She had been a valiant member of the Church for many years, yet she still held onto some of the old beliefs, half out of habit, half out of superstition.

The Lord knows conversion takes time. It is sufficient for him to accept us when we come to him with a broken heart and contrite spirit, taking upon us his name, and being baptized. If we'll hang around after that, he'll let the Spirit take care of teaching us the rest.

[Whynot]

Catholics invoke prayers to the Virgin and to Saints because they believe these individuals were exceptionally righteous and worthy in life, to the extent that they had an abundance of blessings and spiritual strength left over. They petition the Saint to share some of their overage of blessings with them, or that they petition God on their behalf based upon their status and not on our own.

While not worshiped here in the USA, they essentially take the place of Jesus Christ as their Mediator for that one petition. Yet they understand it is still Christ who is the Great Mediator.

I would look at it in the sense of the early days of the Church, where members would petition Joseph Smith to pray on their behalf for a revelation, rather than seeking one of their own. Even today, how many LDS members, when they need a priesthood blessing, call upon the bishop because they think the bishop has some special priesthood gift that their hometeacher does not have.

Such prayers through the Saints were beneficial at one point in the average Catholic's life, but eventually we can graduate to receive blessings from a more direct source to God. It works on Elder Oak's concept of "Good, Better, Best."

Asking for council on a matter among the living is wise, and the best advise comes from the best people:-) Even I ask advice:-) This is scriptural and good. As one verse says, there is wisdom in much council and how can two walk together unless they agree. If we have a question, asking someone we respect in the Lord is very helpful. But those things are not prayers. Prayers are a petition invoked to the unseen relm to the one who is able to effect the matter.

Early LDS prayed to Joseph Smith Jr.? I've always thought that all spiritual blessings are in Jesus Christ in the heavens - that He is the only mediator between God the Father and man on earth. This is a new angle that I really hadn't given much thought to - priesthood blessings. I get God answering prayer, or prayer and laying on of hands as part of a sanctification process to specific charge/end of the Lords' work, and the prayer of the righteous being effective for God to answer. How is the 'priesthood blessing' different?

This is a question due to ignorance of the topic: Did they ask Joseph to pray for them while he was alive? or after he had died? If it was after he had died, that would seem to reflect the RCC practice. I just remember that somewhere in the Bible it speaks of not seeking things from the dead.

Thanks!

Edited October 23, 2010 by Whynot
before or after he died?

[pam]

Early LDS prayed to Joseph Smith Jr.?

He didn't say that. He said early LDS petitioned Joseph Smith to pray on their behalf for revelation. That is different than praying TO Joseph Smith. This would have been when he was alive.

Edited October 23, 2010 by pam

[Whynot]

That's the only thing that made sense to me - thanks for the clarification! I'm sure we've all had people ask us to pray for them...

[jayanna]

I think that it is important to remember that we are not told to study other religions in order to help people with their conversion, we are asked to know our own doctrine and prayerfully explain it as the Holy Spirit directs.

You do not have to know all about someone else's religion in order for them to understand the true church. It does not matter what their religion practices, or how far from truth it is, they could be practicing voodoo, or having s*x with goats, it doesn't matter. What matters is that we shine a light on the truth and how great it is. When praying according to the Lord's example, miracles are not an occasional occurence, but rather daily ones.

When speaking to someone about the gospel, it is a good idea to start with principles that he/she is already familiar with and may have a testimony of already. You can then start from there.

As far as the RM is concerned, he needs to realize that we are not supposed to be overbearing. We don't need to look for reasons to argue, that we are supposed to help in the spirit of charity. Maybe directing him toward a service outlook would be a good idea. He could fast, or look for service opportunities until he grows love for the investigator. Speaking ill of him in any way would be a terrible idea...it is the wrong spirit...he is so zealous because he cares, he just needs to learn a new love language :)

[Intrigued]

That's the only thing that made sense to me - thanks for the clarification! I'm sure we've all had people ask us to pray for them...

Absolutely this. It's in that same light that Catholics 'pray to Saints' too. I think it's cool

[skippy740]

Now this is where I need the assistance. He had a rather uncomfortable encounter with some LDS missionaries that left a bad impression.

Being Catholic, he of course, prays to the Virgin Mary and other Saints. Also being from Mexico, he mainly prays to Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe. The missionaries told him that was wrong and that he needed to stop. Wrong answer to give a man that has been Catholic all his life.

His question: If we are to pray only to God, explain why do good things happen when we pray to the Saints or to the Virgin Mary?

His other issue was: How do you explain Jesus' face or the Virgin Mary's face appearing on objects. He claims he went to a tree in the SLC area had the Virgin Mary's face and had tears coming from the eyes. I remember hearing about this myself though I didn't go to check it out.

I would like to figure out how best to answer his questions without putting down his beliefs or the Catholic religion but yet get him to understand where we are coming from.

I hope I have explained this well enough. I'm not familiar enough with Catholicism.

The principle of prayer is universal. It's a way of having "karma" work for you. God looks upon the sincerity of the heart and faith of the person asking.

Does that make it wrong? No. It makes us different.

Some missionaries are a little too "self-righteous" about certain religious practices of other faiths. For the state of our nation, communities and world as a whole... I think ANY kind of prayer is good!

Now, it then becomes our job to re-teach the proper way, order and method of prayer as the Savior taught in the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

Seeing the Virgin Mary in different objects... I can't explain that. (I still remember the grilled cheese sandwich on ebay about 5 years ago.) There are always 'signs' and perhaps these are some ways that it turns some people toward God.

Missionaries should NEVER put down a different religion or religious practices. They can build upon the truths that they have, but it's just stupid to put people down. (Who would want to join a church where you get to be insulted before joining?)

[rameumptom]

I think it is important to understand some key points of what the investigator currently believes, and do so for the following reasons:

1. Terminology. Christians and Mormons do not always use the same terminology, or use it in different ways. To be saved can mean different things for example. So, we need to know enough to explain the gospel in terms they will understand, so we are not talking past each other.

2. Understanding their beliefs helps us to frame the discussion accordingly. Where beliefs are alike or similar, we can help show those similarities. Where they are different, we can explain why we believe differently, and perhaps show a view scriptural verses to support our statements.

3. It shows the individual that you care enough to understand/know their own religion. It avoids wrong presumptions on our part. For example, many people consider the Catholic prayers to saints as idol worship. Not a good way to begin a discussion, is it? With some background understanding, we can help our friends understand that while what they have done has blessed them, there is a higher and better way of prayer and supplication.

[pam]

Thanks Ram. You mirror my thoughts exactly.

[rameumptom]

Oh, if everyone could just mirror my thoughts, we'd have no more problems in the world!