Spanking

[Cal]

At any level of justice one must recognize that both positive and negative reinforcement (incentives) need to be employed. For all that I have read and experienced I am not convinced that spanking is either effective or unless. I think that one can justify what-ever their course. For the most part I do not think that parents are that much worse at being parents than children are at being children – that is with some exceptions. There are other issues that I think are more important or that I did wrong with my children.

1.Using chores as punishment.

2. Planning for them to have more leisure time than chores.

3. Putting them on the spot to lie when the truth would be difficult.

4. Not knowing the difference between teaching and training of children and not knowing when or which to employ.

5. Thinking that as parents you are the only influence in their lives that will (or can) really make a difference.

6. Attempting to spare them from “foolish” dreams that are likely beyond their reach. (Being the one to tell them they do not have what it takes to succeed at some given task – even if they don’t.)

7. Trying to make anything better for them without their knowing or participation.

8. Not making sure they know and understand what love is by your example.

Personally I think that any of the above can be more damaging to children than a spanking that is underserved or abusive. Do not take me wrong and think I condone abusing children with harsh physical punishments; extreams and excesses are always a problem – It is just that I think that so many parents think they are better than some other parents just because they do not spank or physically push their children and then to 50 other things that harm their children in other ways.

Spanking or not spanking is not the worse problem parents must face in raising children. I am personally concerned with the parent that think that it is.

The Traveler

Your post has some really good ideas about parenting. I don't notice any one on this thread implying that spanking is the WORSE thing a parent can do. Obviously, as you pointed out, there are other poor parenting behaviors. However, just because the items you mentioned are examples of poor parenting, doesn't mean that parents are somehow vindicated in thinking that spanking is therefore OK. Actually, IMHO, they are both bad parenting. Spanking is just one of many poor parenting behaviors.

[Cal]

<div class='quotemain'>

Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work.

While it may not work with your parenting style, to point-blank declare that it does not work, too quickly condemns what did indeed work for millenia. The Bible does not merely "condone" phsyical discipline--it calls for it. Is corporal punishment necessary for all parents in all situations? Of course not. On the other hand, to declare it 100% wrong is too strong, imho.

I've never seen any research, nor have I even seen anecdotal evidence that spanking is superior to OTHERS forms of discipline. And given the down side, I still stand by my statement. The fact that the Bible calls for physical violence, only says to me that the Biblical people were uncivilized and naive to human psychology. And no, 100% wrong is not too strong. No human being has the moral right to intentionally inflict physical pain on another. PERIOD. That we try to justify it with ancient religious texts just says we can't think for ourselves on the subject.

Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate.

No, it teaches that if you are disobedient, rebellious, and not mindful of the law, there can be physicall painful consequences. Little ons get spanked, big ones go to prison.

Since when do criminal who break the law get SPANKED. It is actually AGAINST THE LAW to physical abuse even prisoners? So why should it be ok to do it to our own kids?!!!!!!!!!!

kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults.

I would argue that spanking, properly done, can foster trust in adults, and teach children that physical restraint or punishment only happens in limited, properly governed circumstances.

Since when did getting hit foster trust? All it fosters is resentment. I got hit as a kid, and all it did was make me resent the person who did it. I said to myself, "how dare you violate my right to my own body. What gives you the right to inflict your physical self on me?" When you can answer that question maybe I can agree with something you are saying. Again, do unto others.... The fact that some people say "Well, my dad hit me, and it didn't do me any harm" begs the question. Children are human beings with the right to their physical and emotional space and privacy. Spanking and hitting VIOLATES that. Ask yourself this, as an adult, would you let anyone hit or spank you? What makes you think that kids like it or can handle it any better. Spanking only satisfies the "needs" of an out-of-control, angry parent. It does the kid NO good, PERIOD, end of story, and nothing you have said yet convinces me otherwise.

Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.

The Bible deals with slavery, it does not call for it. The Bible commands capital punishment, and it does call for the physical punishment of rebellious youth. We that take the words of Scripture as being from God will grapple with how to apply them in today's world, rather than dismiss them as "uncivilized."

Sorry, but THAT part of the Bible is the kind of thing Brigham Young was probably talking about when he said that the Bible has the Word of God, the Word of Man and the Word of the Devil. The physical punishment and condoning of slavery are definitely the Word of the Devil, IMHO.

I would contend, however, that corporeal punishment is best carried out only rarely, as way of saying to the child, "You've really crossed the line this time!"

The simple fact that you conceed that it should only be used "rarely" implies that you recognize that there IS something wrong with hitting. If you can get things across without hitting, why use it at all? And if you can't, maybe you need to rethink your parenting skills. As you've seen from this thread, there are many here who find that they do just fine without it. That should tell you something.

I don’t think we should spank children because they’re too young to enjoy it. Ba da bump. But seriously. I once spanked a child who did seem to enjoy it, because he kept asking for more. Ba da bump. Seriously though. I get no respect. No respect I tell you. Why, when I was a child, I’d had to wait my turn in a corner before getting a spanking. And not a very good one at that. But after I talked to my parents, we got it all worked out.

You know, this simple post explains just about everything I've ever wondered about you, my brother.

[prisonchaplain]

I've never seen any research, nor have I even seen anecdotal evidence that spanking is superior to OTHERS forms of discipline. And given the down side, I still stand by my statement. The fact that the Bible calls for physical violence, only says to me that the Biblical people were uncivilized and naive to human psychology. And no, 100% wrong is not too strong. No human being has the moral right to intentionally inflict physical pain on another. PERIOD. That we try to justify it with ancient religious texts just says we can't think for ourselves on the subject.

You equate ALL spanking with physical abuse, violation, etc. Absurd. It is also a very strange (and, imho, dangerous) reading of Scripture to say, "Well, I don't like what the Scripture says here, so it must be something God allowed for barbarians." Again, I grant that the underlying call of "spare the rod spoil the child" is for parental discipline. It does not have to take the form of spanking. However, to declare all parents who spank barbarians (do I read child abusers?) is too much.

Since when do criminal who break the law get SPANKED.

You've never been to Singapore? You don't recall the American teenager who nearly got caned for keying a bunch of cars?

It is actually AGAINST THE LAW to physical abuse even prisoners? So why should it be ok to do it to our own kids?!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, you are right. "They're here as punishment, not for punishment." My quick answer, is it is never okay to physically abuse children. On the other hand, spanking is not abuse. In fact, some school districts still have corporal punishment.

Since when did getting hit foster trust?

Bounderies foster security and trust. Spanking is one tool that parents use to enforce bounderies. You may not like it, and so, should not use it. But, in a nation in which most children suffer from willful neglect, I pray that your notion that all physical discipline, is, by definition, abuse, does not become widespread law.

All it fosters is resentment. I got hit as a kid, and all it did was make me resent the person who did it. I said to myself, "how dare you violate my right to my own body. What gives you the right to inflict your physical self on me?" When you can answer that question maybe I can agree with something you are saying. Again, do unto others.... The fact that some people say "Well, my dad hit me, and it didn't do me any harm" begs the question. Children are human beings with the right to their physical and emotional space and privacy. Spanking and hitting VIOLATES that. Ask yourself this, as an adult, would you let anyone hit or spank you? What makes you think that kids like it or can handle it any better. Spanking only satisfies the "needs" of an out-of-control, angry parent. It does the kid NO good, PERIOD, end of story, and nothing you have said yet convinces me otherwise.

Maybe you experienced abusive physical discipline, and so project your experiences on every act of spanking. However, the reason so many say, "I was spanked and it didn't hurt me," is because most kids that receive thoughtful spankings are well aware that they probably deserved more, and over the years, have become thankful for parents that bothered to discipline.

[Sorry, but THAT part of the Bible is the kind of thing Brigham Young was probably talking about when he said that the Bible has the Word of God, the Word of Man and the Word of the Devil. The physical punishment and condoning of slavery are definitely the Word of the Devil, IMHO.

The Bible is the Word of God, period. Yes, there are stories of men who failed, men who deceived, and of Satan's work. But no anointed reading of Scriptures would declare Solomon's proverb for parents to "spare the rod spoil the child" as Satan's words.

The simple fact that you conceed that it should only be used "rarely" implies that you recognize that there IS something wrong with hitting. If you can get things across without hitting, why use it at all? And if you can't, maybe you need to rethink your parenting skills. As you've seen from this thread, there are many here who find that they do just fine without it. That should tell you something.

Math lesson time. Sometimes "less is more." Nothing is always nothing.

My advice to rarely spank means that spanking is a strong measure that should be reserved for overt rebellion, and even then, not as a first resort. Spanking is not wrong, but, imho, is more effective as a near-last resort--kinda like wars between nations.

[prisonchaplain]

...doesn't mean that parents are somehow vindicated in thinking that spanking is therefore OK. Actually, IMHO, they are both bad parenting. Spanking is just one of many poor parenting behaviors.

I found quite a few interesting and diverse viewpoints at beliefnet.com. This site is explores many spiritualities, and so counts as fairly objective. In the poll on spanking I found myself in the largest camp--47% believing spanking is best used as a last resort. The article I chose to highlight (those interested should explore the several articles--including some that argue against using it) is an explanation from a self-proclaimed liberal parent as to why she uses spanking as a rare option.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/70/story_7001_1.html

[shanstress70]

My advice to rarely spank means that spanking is a strong measure that should be reserved for overt rebellion, and even then, not as a first resort. Spanking is not wrong, but, imho, is more effective as a near-last resort--kinda like wars between nations.

Like crying for no reason, the example of your own daughter you gave? Is this the overt rebellion you are talking about? That doesn't seem like an extreme behavior.

[prisonchaplain]

Like crying for no reason, the example of your own daughter you gave? Is this the overt rebellion you are talking about? That doesn't seem like an extreme behavior.

If you recall the full example, she had done so on three occasions within an hour, and had been given warnings. Also, at 3.5 years old, the tap after the third warning did the trick. Her behavior was extreme that day...she normally will start such whining or crying, be warned, and stop. Also, I can count the # of times she's been spanked on one hand--and never much more of a tap (again, 3.5 years old). Come on, Shantress, give the parents of 3 under-fivers the benefit of the doubt. B) Come to think of it, that may be my real point in all my posts in this string.

[Cal]

<div class='quotemain'>

...doesn't mean that parents are somehow vindicated in thinking that spanking is therefore OK. Actually, IMHO, they are both bad parenting. Spanking is just one of many poor parenting behaviors.

I found quite a few interesting and diverse viewpoints at beliefnet.com. This site is explores many spiritualities, and so counts as fairly objective. In the poll on spanking I found myself in the largest camp--47% believing spanking is best used as a last resort. The article I chose to highlight (those interested should explore the several articles--including some that argue against using it) is an explanation from a self-proclaimed liberal parent as to why she uses spanking as a rare option.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/70/story_7001_1.html

I'm glad that you at least see spanking as a "last resort". However, give it a little further thought. If you haven't been able to solve the problem without spanking, what makes you thing hitting the kid is the answer?

There is no point in trying to convince me that the Old Testament types have a single thing to say to me about human psychology or proper human behavior when they found ways to justify slavery, and killing kids that talked back to their parents. The impulse to kill kids that talk back is the same impulse that motivates spanking. None of it arises from consideration of what is good for the kid. Spanking is hitting, period. Hitting is abuse. Cloak it in any euphemisms you want, doesn't change the fact.

As far as your answer to where you refered to the hitting that goes on it Singapore, all I have to say is: We don't live in Singapore, a country still emerging (culturally) from tribality. I hardly think we should try to justify hitting our kids because it is done to prisoners in Singapore.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm glad that you at least see spanking as a "last resort". However, give it a little further thought. If you haven't been able to solve the problem without spanking, what makes you thing hitting the kid is the answer?

At the stage my children are at (3 & 5--no we don't spank the 19-mos old), it's the shock value. Lecturing takes place at a very simple level, at this stage. Timeouts usually work, also--and only need to be a couple of minutes. It's the embarrassment of having done wrong. However, there are those rare occasions when the dreaded spank (I really made Mommy or Daddy disappointed in me) is mentioned or invoked that "snaps" the child out of their negative behavior escalation.

There is no point in trying to convince me that the Old Testament types have a single thing to say to me about human psychology or proper human behavior when they found ways to justify slavery, and killing kids that talked back to their parents. The impulse to kill kids that talk back is the same impulse that motivates spanking. None of it arises from consideration of what is good for the kid.

I think we are operating from a different understanding of what Scripture is, here. Yes, sometimes children who were "of age," engaged in the type of rebellion against parents and God that, if left unanswered, would threaten the moral fabric of society. These cases were not about child welfare, but about law and punishment. These weren't little kids, but adolescents. Your discussion is more akin to whether 16-year olds should ever be tried as adults, then whether spanking is appropriate for very young children.

]Spanking is hitting, period. Hitting is abuse. Cloak it in any euphemisms you want, doesn't change the fact.

We disagree. History is on my side. The law in some places is on yours. So long as we understand that people of good will can disagree, we're okay. However, my sense is we are not there. Am I wrong, or would you advocate for all corporal punishment to be illegal, and for parents who used it to be charged with child abuse. In other words, would you go so far as to criminalize spanking?

As far as your answer to where you refered to the hitting that goes on it Singapore, all I have to say is: We don't live in Singapore, a country still emerging (culturally) from tribality. I hardly think we should try to justify hitting our kids because it is done to prisoners in Singapore.

Singapore's history is primarily Chinese. It exceeds 5000 years of history. They might teach us a thing or two about what is civilized. I only used Singapore to point out that a society that is in many ways more advanced than ours finds occasional use for corporal punishment.

Something else to consider. Push too hard for banning all corporal punishment, and the backlash will be such that many forms of actual abuse will be tolerated in the name of parents vs. an over-intrusive state. Our revulsion for government meddling is mighty strong in this country.

[Heather]

I found a pdf file off of the love and logic website about spanking that might interest some of you. I don't think it helps anyone to say, "Spanking is wrong," but then give no alternative, because it's quite simple to see that yes it can work. My belief is that spanking can work, but there are other methods which have been proven to be even more effective. I would be very interested (being a parent myself) to see if the love and logic methods are more effective in parenting rather than spanking. I would love to run a mini-case study through this thread to see if another method is more effective than spanking or if spanking still brings about the best results. (But I also know that I don't like anyone telling me how to parent, and I don't want to come across that way either. This is completely on a volunteer / mutual-curiosity basis.)

http://www.loveandlogic.com/pdfs/0401tvarticle.pdf - Look at the second page specifically, titled "Practice Alternatives to Spanking" The first two paragraphs really jumped out at me in regards to PC's stance on spanking. I think he is a good and loving parent, who probably has wonderful children who sometimes push the limits, just like every other child.

[StrawberryFields]

Have you seen the Nanny Shows on TV? They never hit to get the desired behavior. :)

[shanstress70]

I LOVE to watch those Nanny shows. I always learn so much from them.

And thanks, Heather, for that article. I will be getting that book to read... seems like a lot of great ideas.

Although my child is not aggressive, per say, there are still lots of great points in the article.

I have had the problem with my 3 year old being interested in 'shooting' people after his dad let him watch Star Wars for some stupid reason. He has agreed that it was a mistake and we will not let him watch things like that in the future. But the damage has been done and we somehow need to de-program him. He's all about 'shooting the bad guys'. He talks about it a lot. I've finally got him to see that in real life we don't shoot the bad guys... we call the police and let them put them in jail. I'm afraid I have a vigil ante on my hands.

For a while there, he was in a phase of pointing his finger at me and 'shooting' me when I asked him to stop a certain behavior. Had to nip that in the bud... and no, I didn't have to spank him to have success!

I've been told that it's natural for boys to be obsessed with guns and shooting the bad guys. Do any of you experienced parents have any advice on this? Except for that one movie, we have always been very conscious about what he watches, and have tried to keep him away from violence.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

Shan, unless you keep him locked in his room all his life, he's going to be exposed to it. He'll get it from other kids at school, and even from friends at Church. You can - and should - control what comes into your home (movies, TV, video games, etc.), but you're not going to prevent exposure. Talk openly about it. Express your concerns and feelings. Be prepared, though -- he will use your dislikes to irritate or infuriate you on purpuse when he's older (you're giving him an obvious tool to push your buttons if your reaction is strong enough -- kids know what hurts Mom, and will use it). And yes, it does seem that almost all boys play war at some level, and I don't think that's all bad. It's an elementary form of good vs. evil and a building block to being willing to fight for what is right - to defend what is good. I certainly don't want a generation of total pacifists being raised in my homeland while other societies are raising willing fighters.

[shanstress70]

Shan, unless you keep him locked in his room all his life, he's going to be exposed to it. He'll get it from other kids at school, and even from friends at Church. You can - and should - control what comes into your home (movies, TV, video games, etc.), but you're not going to prevent exposure. Talk openly about it. Express your concerns and feelings. Be prepared, though -- he will use your dislikes to irritate or infuriate you on purpuse when he's older (you're giving him an obvious tool to push your buttons if your reaction is strong enough -- kids know what hurts Mom, and will use it). And yes, it does seem that almost all boys play war at some level, and I don't think that's all bad. It's an elementary form of good vs. evil and a building block to being willing to fight for what is right - to defend what is good. I certainly don't want a generation of total pacifists being raised in my homeland while other societies are raising willing fighters.

Good ideas, Mom. I guess you're right that the good guy/bad guy scenario is something of value that he is learning. Last night when he went to bed, he wanted me to tell him a story about GI Joe shooting someone with his gun. I told him that we don't shoot people. He said, "But GI Joe does, and he's the good guy. He shoots the bad guys."

Who ever thought you'd have to teach a 3 year old about war? I explained in the most simple terms that sometimes it's necessary to shoot people to protect your country or family. This parenting business is tough stuff!

[Dr T]

Hello PC,

Just a side note. I'm pretty sure there is no "spare the rod spoil the child" proverb. I think that's a common misperception. Just like, "God helps those that help themselves." Let me know if I'm wrong though...

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Josh M]

Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work. Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate. Is that really the lesson we want the child to learn? I know the first to be true, because, I tried it. Very ineffective. Bottom line: kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults. Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.

I got spanked a lot when i was a kid. I dont abuse anyone. And I must also disagree about:

"kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave."

I learned how to behave not how to hit when I got spanked. The last thing I wanted to do was do something wrong and get spanked for it, i hated it. Although your statement might be true for some kids.

[Cal]

<div class='quotemain'>

Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work. Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate. Is that really the lesson we want the child to learn? I know the first to be true, because, I tried it. Very ineffective. Bottom line: kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults. Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.

I got spanked a lot when i was a kid. I dont abuse anyone. And I must also disagree about:

"kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave."

I learned how to behave not how to hit when I got spanked. The last thing I wanted to do was do something wrong and get spanked for it, i hated it. Although your statement might be true for some kids.

You say that you got spanked a lot, but don't abuse anyone. Do you spank YOUR kids? Then you do. The pattern is repeating. The problem with spanking is that it teaches the next generation to communicate with violence, rather than reason. Until we break the cycle, the next generation will be just as violent as we are.This stuff about "shocking" the kid into awareness with spanking is crap. Kids should be treated with the SAME dignity and respect that we want to be treated. No one has the right to hit kids, period. And yes, I do think it should be criminalized, just like any other form of battery is actionable at law.

[Josh M]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work. Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate. Is that really the lesson we want the child to learn? I know the first to be true, because, I tried it. Very ineffective. Bottom line: kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults. Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.

I got spanked a lot when i was a kid. I dont abuse anyone. And I must also disagree about:

"kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave."

I learned how to behave not how to hit when I got spanked. The last thing I wanted to do was do something wrong and get spanked for it, i hated it. Although your statement might be true for some kids.

You say that you got spanked a lot, but don't abuse anyone. Do you spank YOUR kids? Then you do. The pattern is repeating. The problem with spanking is that it teaches the next generation to communicate with violence, rather than reason. Until we break the cycle, the next generation will be just as violent as we are.This stuff about "shocking" the kid into awareness with spanking is crap. Kids should be treated with the SAME dignity and respect that we want to be treated. No one has the right to hit kids, period. And yes, I do think it should be criminalized, just like any other form of battery is actionable at law.

Ehh I was just interested in the parenting forum, thought id read a couple posts. Im only 17 so i dont have kids but I read what that person said and had to say something. I do believe spanking should be a last resort. If me spanking my kids means they will show respect as I did to my parents, and my kids spanking their kids makes them show respect like I did to my parents, so be it, let the cycle continue. You can call it violent and abusive all you want. The lord sometimes DESTORYS his children to humble those around them, why cant parents spank their children to humble them?

[prisonchaplain]

Just a side note. I'm pretty sure there is no "spare the rod spoil the child" proverb. I think that's a common misperception. Just like, "God helps those that help themselves." Let me know if I'm wrong though...

The phrase is a summary of the following proverb:

Proverbs 13:24 (King James Version): He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

[Josh M]

I think that verse also adds to my belief in spanking

[prisonchaplain]

This stuff about "shocking" the kid into awareness with spanking is crap. Kids should be treated with the SAME dignity and respect that we want to be treated. No one has the right to hit kids, period. And yes, I do think it should be criminalized, just like any other form of battery is actionable at law.

Quite often in these forums we'll reach a point of impass and agree to disagree. However, I sensed something more in Cal's quite radical position that ALL USE OF PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE AGAINST CHILDREN OF ALL AGES IS ABUSE. Cal would imprison me, and all of you who believe that spanking can be used as a last resort, or a rare discipline tool. We would all be labeled as abusers.

Such a position is radical, because historically even adults have been subject to physical discipline in some circumstances. Children always have. While historical precedent does not always justify continuation (such as slavery), it does mean the burden of proof lies heavily upon those who would force all to comply to their notions of morality. To take a position currently held by less than 30% of parents and say, "Disagree, and we will jail you for abusing your child," betrays the very notion that parents are to raise children, not the state.

The state is to intervene in extreme cases, where abuse is clear, and reasonable people agree. You're not even close to being there, Cal. I agree with your general idea that logic, love, reason, dignity are primary for children. But, there are occasions where the spank can be effectively used. Your stridency, inflexiblity, and willingness to force your radical notions on all through the force of law may end up harming children more than the totality of parents who use spanking as a rare discipline.

[shanstress70]

If me spanking my kids means they will show respect as I did to my parents, and my kids spanking their kids makes them show respect like I did to my parents, so be it, let the cycle continue. You can call it violent and abusive all you want. The lord sometimes DESTORYS his children to humble those around them, why cant parents spank their children to humble them?

And the only way your kids will show respect to you is if you spank them? I think not. There are much better ways.

And what are you talking about humbling your kids? Life is humbling enough!

Do the world a favor and wait to have kids!!!

[Dr T]

Hello PC,

Yes, that is the closest biblic verse. But again, "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is not in the Bible. Just wanted to clarify.

Dr. T

[Josh M]

<div class='quotemain'>

If me spanking my kids means they will show respect as I did to my parents, and my kids spanking their kids makes them show respect like I did to my parents, so be it, let the cycle continue. You can call it violent and abusive all you want. The lord sometimes DESTORYS his children to humble those around them, why cant parents spank their children to humble them?

And the only way your kids will show respect to you is if you spank them? I think not. There are much better ways.

And what are you talking about humbling your kids? Life is humbling enough!

Do the world a favor and wait to have kids!!!

First of i NEVER said it was the only way. I do believe it should be used as a last resort.

Life for a 4 year old....wow that must be the hardest time in your life. You dont get a cookie before dinner.... How can you say life is humbling enough for a child?

And I will do the world a favor and wait. I am not saying that I know everything about parenting....I pretty much dont know anything about parenting. And by the looks of it neither do you.

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

If me spanking my kids means they will show respect as I did to my parents, and my kids spanking their kids makes them show respect like I did to my parents, so be it, let the cycle continue. You can call it violent and abusive all you want. The lord sometimes DESTORYS his children to humble those around them, why cant parents spank their children to humble them?

And the only way your kids will show respect to you is if you spank them? I think not. There are much better ways.

And what are you talking about humbling your kids? Life is humbling enough!

Do the world a favor and wait to have kids!!!

First of i NEVER said it was the only way. I do believe it should be used as a last resort.

Life for a 4 year old....wow that must be the hardest time in your life. You dont get a cookie before dinner.... How can you say life is humbling enough for a child?

And I will do the world a favor and wait. I am not saying that I know everything about parenting....I pretty much dont know anything about parenting. And by the looks of it neither do you.

Maybe I don't, but I'm sure trying my damndest, and I don't take the easy way out and hit my child! Yes, life for a young child is humbling if you look at the world through their eyes. They are getting very independent and want to do everything for themselves, but try as they may, they drop things and make messes, put on their pants backwards, can't tie their shoes, etc. Someone is always telling them what to do, they get yelled at, SOME get spanked. And I won't even talk about the humbling that happens when they start school... some kids are cruel.

At this age, they are still trying to figure out what's acceptable, and how much mom and dad will stick to their guns... it's all a test. Our children don't need to be hit by the ones they love and trust more than anyone in the world. They need to be guided.

[StrawberryFields]

EEEKKKK

Lets try to be respectful to one another here.

I believe the reality of the situation, of this topic, comes from the wisdom of our experiences. I also believe that when we have our own children we want to take what we have learned from our own childhood and improve on it to make life better for our children.

As I look back on the things that my parents did when raising me I have learned much. When I spoke to my mom about the way she was raised as a child she had learned much and softened her ways. It is my belief that parents want their children to go up responsible, respectful and happy. How they get there will greatly depend on the amount of knowledge they have about parenting.

When I was a child I was probably spanked a half a dozen times total. The thing that really hurt me was never really remember feeling good enough as their daughter and that didn't come from those few spankings. Looking back I think it came from not being caught doing good. I was caught plenty doing wrong. I remember being told I was bad many times and "the looks" of disappointment cut to the core of my being. It wasn't the few spanking that have affected me in my lifetime, it was the negative feelings that I received on a regular basis that really hurt.

In general, People don't always remember what you say, but they do remember they way you made them feel.