Spanking


Fiannan
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I believe following any amount of punishment, there should be love expressed. "Hate the sin but love the sinner" and make sure they know it. :)

Every time my child does something wrong for which he is punished, he asks, "Do you love me even when I eat your chapstick?" I always say, "I will always love you no matter what you do, although I may not like your action."

Last night we said our bedtime prayers. I always say a simple prayer and then let him say whatever he wishes to say to God. He said, "God, I'll always love you no matter what you do to me." We said Amen, then he said he had one more thing to ask God. "God, are you at work?" He whispered that God said, "Yes," but he doesn't want to disturb the other people working so he has to whisper.

Where do kids get these things?

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I believe following any amount of punishment, there should be love expressed. "Hate the sin but love the sinner" and make sure they know it. :)

Every time my child does something wrong for which he is punished, he asks, "Do you love me even when I eat your chapstick?" I always say, "I will always love you no matter what you do, although I may not like your action."

Last night we said our bedtime prayers. I always say a simple prayer and then let him say whatever he wishes to say to God. He said, "God, I'll always love you no matter what you do to me." We said Amen, then he said he had one more thing to ask God. "God, are you at work?" He whispered that God said, "Yes," but he doesn't want to disturb the other people working so he has to whisper.

Where do kids get these things?

Shan, that was beautiful. I think that he has a great start on his relationship with God. "I will love you no matter what you do to me"

Where do they get this things? I believe they learn this things at home by listening to people talk there in. :)

You are a great mom and I laughed with the eating the chapstick! :lol:

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Shan, that was beautiful. I think that he has a great start on his relationship with God. "I will love you no matter what you do to me"

Where do they get this things? I believe they learn this things at home by listening to people talk there in. :)

You are a great mom and I laughed with the eating the chapstick! :lol:

You are very sweet! :wub: You are a great mom too. I know that from when you were going through Nick's ordeal with him, as well as other things. How is Nick, BTW? I hope he's doing well.

Yeah, the chapstick thing was pretty funny. He won't do it again, I can guarantee. It was all stuck in his teeth and he could not get it off of them. He was about 2 seconds from throwing up because it tasted so bad! I tried brushing it off his teeth with a toothbrush, which didn't help. Finally, I got him to eat crackers, and that helped.

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Shan, that was beautiful. I think that he has a great start on his relationship with God. "I will love you no matter what you do to me"

Where do they get this things? I believe they learn this things at home by listening to people talk there in. :)

You are a great mom and I laughed with the eating the chapstick! :lol:

You are very sweet! :wub: You are a great mom too. I know that from when you were going through Nick's ordeal with him, as well as other things. How is Nick, BTW? I hope he's doing well.

Yeah, the chapstick thing was pretty funny. He won't do it again, I can guarantee. It was all stuck in his teeth and he could not get it off of them. He was about 2 seconds from throwing up because it tasted so bad! I tried brushing it off his teeth with a toothbrush, which didn't help. Finally, I got him to eat crackers, and that helped.

Nick is physically doing well. Cognitively he will never be the same. He is still in therapy and going to college. He will be deciding on a trade where he can learn a skill based job. His cognitive difficulties make it difficult to learn from text books only. During the many surgeries we were in a positive ebb and flow sequence most of the time things were steadily getting better. Now at the 1.8 year mark we are dealing with another kind of grief...loss of what is lost. We have never been ungrateful for the many blessings we receive everyday but we have to go through many processes of grief and this is hard as we look at the past, present, and future. We are working through this and growing much. Thanks for asking. :)

For those of you who are newer to the site do a search here for "Nick" and you will see how wonderful this site is and how they supported me through a very difficult time when I almost lost my son.

It's funny with the chapstick. My kids ate various things from butter to dirt. Some mothers tried to help by saying that it was something they were lacking in their diet. :hmmm::lol: I think I remember eating chapstick it was the smell that appealed to me I think. :D

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Nick is physically doing well. Cognitively he will never be the same. He is still in therapy and going to college. He will be deciding on a trade where he can learn a skill based job. His cognitive difficulties make it difficult to learn from text books only. During the many surgeries we were in a positive ebb and flow sequence most of the time things were steadily getting better. Now at the 1.8 year mark we are dealing with another kind of grief...loss of what is lost. We have never been ungrateful for the many blessings we receive everyday but we have to go through many processes of grief and this is hard as we look at the past, present, and future. We are working through this and growing much. Thanks for asking. :)

I'm sure he'll do great with all the support he has... not that there won't be challenges. I wish him well!
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Im sorry for what I said Shan. I shouldnt have said it.

I figure Ill do what ever the spirit tells me to do when im a parent. That way ill never go wrong.

Something i just found i dont know if anyone has already posted this or not.

Principle 4: Use physical punishment rarely and with restraint

There are few occasions when spanking is as effective as other methods of correcting misbehavior. These may be occasions when there is an immediate need to change a child’s behavior—if he is in imminent danger, for example, or is abusing another child.

Physical punishment, in fact, loses its effectiveness when used with any frequency. The big problem with spanking is that it is generally used for the wrong reasons, as a release for emotions rather than as a means of disciplining the child. No discipline, particularly physical discipline, should be used to vent our anger.

In our time, great attention is being given to child abuse. Tragically, many parents, even some Latter-day Saint parents, go way too far in their use of physical discipline. In fact, physical discipline is a method that some parents would be better off never using. Some experts feel that physical discipline is so fraught with the danger of excesses that only the genuinely mature parent has the wisdom and self-control to use it appropriately.

“Disciplining with Love,” Ensign, Sept. 1985, 32

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Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work. Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate. Is that really the lesson we want the child to learn? I know the first to be true, because, I tried it. Very ineffective. Bottom line: kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults. Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.

I got spanked a lot when i was a kid. I dont abuse anyone. And I must also disagree about:

"kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave."

I learned how to behave not how to hit when I got spanked. The last thing I wanted to do was do something wrong and get spanked for it, i hated it. Although your statement might be true for some kids.

You say that you got spanked a lot, but don't abuse anyone. Do you spank YOUR kids? Then you do. The pattern is repeating. The problem with spanking is that it teaches the next generation to communicate with violence, rather than reason. Until we break the cycle, the next generation will be just as violent as we are.This stuff about "shocking" the kid into awareness with spanking is crap. Kids should be treated with the SAME dignity and respect that we want to be treated. No one has the right to hit kids, period. And yes, I do think it should be criminalized, just like any other form of battery is actionable at law.

Ehh I was just interested in the parenting forum, thought id read a couple posts. Im only 17 so i dont have kids but I read what that person said and had to say something. I do believe spanking should be a last resort. If me spanking my kids means they will show respect as I did to my parents, and my kids spanking their kids makes them show respect like I did to my parents, so be it, let the cycle continue. You can call it violent and abusive all you want. The lord sometimes DESTORYS his children to humble those around them, why cant parents spank their children to humble them?

Using the violent actions of ancient biblical peoples (where they used the name of God to justify their brutality) is hardly a good reason to justify the continuation of the same brutality. If the God you believe in condones the battery of children, then you and I don't believe in the same God.

I think that verse also adds to my belief in spanking ;)

That verse adds to my belief that the the Isrealites were less than civilized. What ever happened to, "Perhaps he was speaking as a man, and not a prophet"--Mormons use that one all the time to explain away ridiculous things "prophets" have said.

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This stuff about "shocking" the kid into awareness with spanking is crap. Kids should be treated with the SAME dignity and respect that we want to be treated. No one has the right to hit kids, period. And yes, I do think it should be criminalized, just like any other form of battery is actionable at law.

Quite often in these forums we'll reach a point of impass and agree to disagree. However, I sensed something more in Cal's quite radical position that ALL USE OF PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE AGAINST CHILDREN OF ALL AGES IS ABUSE. Cal would imprison me, and all of you who believe that spanking can be used as a last resort, or a rare discipline tool. We would all be labeled as abusers.

Such a position is radical, because historically even adults have been subject to physical discipline in some circumstances. Children always have. While historical precedent does not always justify continuation (such as slavery), it does mean the burden of proof lies heavily upon those who would force all to comply to their notions of morality. To take a position currently held by less than 30% of parents and say, "Disagree, and we will jail you for abusing your child," betrays the very notion that parents are to raise children, not the state.

The state is to intervene in extreme cases, where abuse is clear, and reasonable people agree. You're not even close to being there, Cal. I agree with your general idea that logic, love, reason, dignity are primary for children. But, there are occasions where the spank can be effectively used. Your stridency, inflexiblity, and willingness to force your radical notions on all through the force of law may end up harming children more than the totality of parents who use spanking as a rare discipline.

Simply labeling a position invalid because it disagrees with what MOST people think flies in the face of history. Throughout history there have been times when MOST people approved of slavery and all sorts of other nonsense.

As far as your objection to the state getting involved, I'm just willing to bet that you are totally in favor of the state getting involved when it supports the positions you agree with. Besides, the state is always involved when it comes to the mistreatment of children. It just hasn't decided, yet, that spanking is mistreatment. But then, in the first half of this century, the state didn't have many laws about ANY form of child abuse. It is simply a matter of public awareness and enlightenment. As you have pointed out, most people aren't there yet. But that doesn't mean they are right, and it doesn't mean they won't someday see the light.

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If me spanking my kids means they will show respect as I did to my parents, and my kids spanking their kids makes them show respect like I did to my parents, so be it, let the cycle continue. You can call it violent and abusive all you want. The lord sometimes DESTORYS his children to humble those around them, why cant parents spank their children to humble them?

And the only way your kids will show respect to you is if you spank them? I think not. There are much better ways.

And what are you talking about humbling your kids? Life is humbling enough!

Do the world a favor and wait to have kids!!!

Ditto, Shan

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If me spanking my kids means they will show respect as I did to my parents, and my kids spanking their kids makes them show respect like I did to my parents, so be it, let the cycle continue. You can call it violent and abusive all you want. The lord sometimes DESTORYS his children to humble those around them, why cant parents spank their children to humble them?

And the only way your kids will show respect to you is if you spank them? I think not. There are much better ways.

And what are you talking about humbling your kids? Life is humbling enough!

Do the world a favor and wait to have kids!!!

First of i NEVER said it was the only way. I do believe it should be used as a last resort.

Life for a 4 year old....wow that must be the hardest time in your life. You dont get a cookie before dinner.... How can you say life is humbling enough for a child?

And I will do the world a favor and wait. I am not saying that I know everything about parenting....I pretty much dont know anything about parenting. And by the looks of it neither do you.

Since you admit you don't know anything about parenting, how is it that you can judge whether others do or don't?

EEEKKKK :wacko:

Lets try to be respectful to one another here.

I believe the reality of the situation, of this topic, comes from the wisdom of our experiences. I also believe that when we have our own children we want to take what we have learned from our own childhood and improve on it to make life better for our children.

As I look back on the things that my parents did when raising me I have learned much. When I spoke to my mom about the way she was raised as a child she had learned much and softened her ways. It is my belief that parents want their children to go up responsible, respectful and happy. How they get there will greatly depend on the amount of knowledge they have about parenting.

When I was a child I was probably spanked a half a dozen times total. The thing that really hurt me was never really remember feeling good enough as their daughter and that didn't come from those few spankings. Looking back I think it came from not being caught doing good. I was caught plenty doing wrong. I remember being told I was bad many times and "the looks" of disappointment cut to the core of my being. It wasn't the few spanking that have affected me in my lifetime, it was the negative feelings that I received on a regular basis that really hurt.

In general, People don't always remember what you say, but they do remember they way you made them feel.

Great comment, Straw!

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Im sorry for what I said Shan. I shouldnt have said it.

I figure Ill do what ever the spirit tells me to do when im a parent. That way ill never go wrong.

Something i just found i dont know if anyone has already posted this or not.

Principle 4: Use physical punishment rarely and with restraint

There are few occasions when spanking is as effective as other methods of correcting misbehavior. These may be occasions when there is an immediate need to change a child’s behavior—if he is in imminent danger, for example, or is abusing another child.

Physical punishment, in fact, loses its effectiveness when used with any frequency. The big problem with spanking is that it is generally used for the wrong reasons, as a release for emotions rather than as a means of disciplining the child. No discipline, particularly physical discipline, should be used to vent our anger.

In our time, great attention is being given to child abuse. Tragically, many parents, even some Latter-day Saint parents, go way too far in their use of physical discipline. In fact, physical discipline is a method that some parents would be better off never using. Some experts feel that physical discipline is so fraught with the danger of excesses that only the genuinely mature parent has the wisdom and self-control to use it appropriately.

“Disciplining with Love,” Ensign, Sept. 1985, 32

I wish the Church would grow some, and just say, DON'T HIT YOUR KIDS, PERIOD. It doesn't seem to have a problem forbiding the use of alcohol, tobacco etc. Why is a little hitting ok, but a little coffee is not?

They outright admitted that spanking is essentially usless as a disciplinary tool, so why condone it at all. Just so that the parents who continue aren't offended? I was offended each and everytime I was hit as a child. Any, and I mean any, value it had as a means of changing my behavior was completely overshadowed by the resentment and humiliation and loss of self esteem I experienced. I'm going to keep saying this until it sinks into somebody on here----DON'T HIT YOUR KIDS, EVER!!!!! Don't use the rantings of 2500 year old Psalmists or modern day traditionalist cloud your thinking. Keep your hands off your kids except in approval and nurturing. Hitting another is battery. Battery is illegal. At some point society is going to realize this and criminalize spanking, just like it has criminalized it in the case of adults. Being a parent should not be a licence to batter, even though, at present, it is.

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EEEKKKK :wacko:

Lets try to be respectful to one another here.

BTW, I loved the "catch the child doing good" thing. For example, my middle daughter still struggles with occasionally backsliding in potty training department. She's 3.5. It's gotten to the point where whenever she asks to go potty, or she wakes up dry, we praise her. She say, "See, I made proud, right???"

It's this thing about respect for parents that has irked me a bit with this string. Allusions to spanking being an easy way out, or worse, child abuse, with no consideration or trust that the parents may know the child well, and have found it the best answer in a specific situation. No questions about do you praise enough, etc. Just the assumption: You were lazy, angry, and you had the power, so you hit your child to vent.

Yes, this happens. But, to assume and therefore condemn all parents who spank, no matter how seldom, and without knowing them or the children, betrays a general lack of trust/respect for parents in general. Of course, all of this is "IMHO."

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Using the violent actions of ancient biblical peoples (where they used the name of God to justify their brutality) is hardly a good reason to justify the continuation of the same brutality. If the God you believe in condones the battery of children, then you and I don't believe in the same God.

Cal, do you realize that when you condemn the biblical writers as brutal, and strongly insinuate that they were not inspired of God, but only claimed to be to justify battery, etc. you're not going to win too many converts to your cause from sites that are predominantly trafficed by people with rigorous faith practice?

That verse adds to my belief that the the Isrealites were less than civilized. What ever happened to, "Perhaps he was speaking as a man, and not a prophet"--Mormons use that one all the time to explain away ridiculous things "prophets" have said.

When you call Scripture ridiculous, your efforts here to win opinions also declines rapidly. Hey, I'm trying to help you here. :rolleyes:

Simply labeling a position invalid because it disagrees with what MOST people think flies in the face of history. Throughout history there have been times when MOST people approved of slavery and all sorts of other nonsense.

Great job of mistating my case, pretending I expressed no nuance of opinion, and making yourself look like the moderate, understanding poster. I specifically mentioned slavery as evidence that not all historical practices are justified. My contention is that when roughly 27% of people agree with you, and you overturn thousands of years of parenting practice, and withdraw from parents ANY discretion in the use of spanking, you are indeed the radical, and the burden of proof is upon you to prove you case to the strong majority of parents.

As far as your objection to the state getting involved,

Another misquote to paint me as the extremist. What I said was that the state rightly involves itself in strong cases of abuse that are well-evidence, and which reasonable people agree upon.

It is simply a matter of public awareness and enlightenment. As you have pointed out, most people aren't there yet. But that doesn't mean they are right, and it doesn't mean they won't someday see the light.

Glad to see you're willing to use the democratic process, at least. :)

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For example, my middle daughter still struggles with occasionally backsliding in potty training department. She's 3.5.

Just want to tell you that you are not alone here! My son (same age) has almost gotten it, but still has accidents when he's really into his playing and doesn't want to stop what he's doing to take care of business. I try to just act neutral when it happens and explain calmly and without celebration that he needs to be more careful. But how frustrating!

I really shouldn't complain though because up until a few months ago, he would NEVER go #2 in the potty... and I mean never! At least he has finally gotten to where he'll do it most of the time. I thought he'd be in the 8th grade wearing pull-ups!

What the heck did people do back in the day to potty train their children? My mother is so judgmental of me when she talks about it. According to her, my brother and I were both completely potty trained by the age of 2. They must have beat the crap out of kids for that then.

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When I think about punishment I think about the Savior and the merchants selling their wares in the temple. Sure this upset him, but he took his time to make and braid the whips he used to chase of those merchants. He did not respond to them in anger. I am not one to have really ever spanked a child as punishment. I have seen where parents do this out of anger and frustration and I think that is wrong. If a parent chooses to set guidelines and consequences that have the punishment of being spanked as long as it is not brutal I am okay with it.

I remember several years back when an American youth was in Singapore (I think it was) and he broke the law. It seems to me that it had something to do with spray painting something. The law said that he would be flogged which is I believe a public spanking. The American public was in an uproar about this but nothing could be done and apparently he was flogged. It would be interesting to see how effective this is as a punishment there.

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potty training (totally off topic):

1. every child is different. no use comparing one to another

2. in the olden days kids were potty trained younger -- cloth diapers! That would motivate both parent and child!

3. Any time I hear of a child being potty trained by 18 months, I think it's the parent who is trained, not the child.

4. I don't care how much you coax and teach and work at it, a child is ready when he is ready. When the child is ready, he almost teaches himself.

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potty training (totally off topic):

1. every child is different. no use comparing one to another

2. in the olden days kids were potty trained younger -- cloth diapers! That would motivate both parent and child!

3. Any time I hear of a child being potty trained by 18 months, I think it's the parent who is trained, not the child.

4. I don't care how much you coax and teach and work at it, a child is ready when he is ready. When the child is ready, he almost teaches himself.

Thanks for your reassuring words. I realized that myself - that it doesn't matter what you do - the child will not do it until he/she is ready... period! Hopefully we are almost there, with only the occasional accident.
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I agree totally with PC on this topic.

I was spanked when I was a child. My recollection is that it was frequent, and "always" by my Dad. Two days after my fathers funeral, Mom and I were reminincing about Dad, and I brought up "Why was it that Daddy always did the spankings?" Mom hooted ~ she said that they both shared in giving the spankings equally. I then mentioned that I felt that I got the most spankings. Hearing this statement she nearly fell off her chair laughing. My Dear, she said, you got all of 4 spankings your entire life. The first one wasn't even administered by your father, it was the Dr. that Spanked you!

Daddy had to spank you, nothing else got through to you. I can't remember the first two things I did, but according to Mom and my three sisters and one brother, Dad barely hit me. What he did was put me face down over his lap, slap the door jamb with his belt and then spank me with his left hand. Dad was severely right handed (so am I, so I know how awkward it was for him and how he didn't have any power to the "spank"). I would get three maybe four spanks.

Before I ever got to the "over his lap" part, I was already crying, and wishing I had not done the bad thing. NOT because I was going to get Whooped/ Beaten/ Spanked; NOT because I had gotten caught; but because I had done wrong, and had disappointed Daddy and Mom.

The last spanking I got was a doozy though, and I thoroughly deserved it. I deliberately slammed the front door on my brothers head. He had been teasing me - yet again - and bonking me on the head with a thimble on his finger. I was in the beginning of a migrain and I had had enough. I was going out the front door, he was right behind me, bonking me on the head, he got distracted by something and looked behind him, that is when I swung the door at him ~ just as he looked back to me and leaned forward to bonk me once more. I not only knocked him out cold ~ he had to have 15 stitches on his forehead! My Uncle took him to the hospital, and Dad took off his belt and had me hold my dress down over my buttocks and legs and after he whipped the hallway archway about ten times, he then whipped me 4 times. Like I said, I deserved it. I deserved more than that ~ but Daddy was crying so hard ~ he had to stop.

I got my mouth washed out with soap for: Lying, swearing, and calling people nasty names.

Once Mom whacked me up along side the head with the wooden spoon she was stirring the stew with, because I said in a nasty way that I wish Daddy would just go to work, so I could watch a movie on tv ( I was in High School, and my Dad worked 6 nights a week, Saturday being his only night home). Believe me, I deserved to get whacked all over for that snide, nasty, disrespectful remark. I sent myself up to my room sans dinner, tv, and Saturday night treats.

When I was about 7, my Dad and Mom started using Psychology on me. Sit there and just LOOK at what you have done. You are going to fix it, so you better figure out how you are going to do it AND PAY for it.

You are going to write a letter telling what you did, what you said, why you said it and you are going to apologize - IN WRITING and in person for what you have done.

I have six siblings. We all got spanked, we all got the same kind of discipline. My oldest brother had two children, he spanked them, and when they were old enough to understand it, he used the same psychology that our parents used on us. My youngest sister and brother have four children each. Same goes for them. Not one of those children were abused, beaten or neglected. They are a delight to be around. The oldest is 33 the youngest is 11. They all know right from wrong ~ good from evil. Not all are members of the LDS Church either.

When you spank a child that is still wearing diapers, you are spanking a well padded bottom ~ and if you take off the clothes and spank just the plastic covering of the diaper ~ you will get a better response from the child. Spanking a cloth diaper that is protected with that rubber/plastic pants was the best thing ~ it made so much noise, that is what the child heard and they felt a gentle "spank" on their behind.

Yes, there are parents/people out there who go way overboard. Who enjoy hurting children. Those people need our prayers, not our condemnation. We don't need more laws restricting parenting. We need more of Christ in our homes.

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Yes, there are parents/people out there who go way overboard. Who enjoy hurting children. Those people need our prayers, not our condemnation. We don't need more laws restricting parenting. We need more of Christ in our homes.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I think condemnation is a good thing for people who enjoy hurting children. And sure, Christ is a good thing to have in our homes, but unfortunately, many people defend hitting children with the Bible and their religion. WWJD? IMO, he would not spank!
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cal...please read what I type before you say anything about me k thx.

And Shan, if the church isnt completly against spanking, would there not be some situations where jesus would spank? If god kills his own children would it be completely against everything holy if jesus spanked his child out of love for them to learn and grow?

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[i wholeheartedly disagree with this. I think condemnation is a good thing for people who enjoy hurting children. And sure, Christ is a good thing to have in our homes, but unfortunately, many people defend hitting children with the Bible and their religion. WWJD? IMO, he would not spank!

I don't know if we need MORE LAWS, or simply more enforcement of the laws we already have. However, people who hurt their children (bruises, blatant neglect, or consistent berating) need the kind of prayers and support that I can offer them--behind bars.

At the same time, of course God spanks. He "spanked" Israel by allowing them to be occupied by foreign governments, by 40 years in the desert, by plagues that came upon the people. And, Mormons, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Baptists, etc. all agree that God inspired Solomon when he wrote about sparing the rod (neglect of discipline) being equivalent to hatred of the child.

Bottom-line: Rare or no spanking is certainly within the parameters of Scriptures, and of modern practice. Those who chose not to spank, and who invest time and energy into alternate means, probably do well--in that they are so involved, the child will learn parameters. Those who find the rare spank effective, deserve no presumed condemnation.

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There was a scripture that kept popping into my head, but I had to ask my dad about it because I couldn't find it, as I had remembered the wrong wording. It's Matt. 18:6. In looking it up, I also came across this message from President Hinckley “Behold Your Little Ones,” Ensign, June 2001. I will include the portion that really stood out to me as an expression of why I will discipline and teach my children the way I have stated previously. I too had friends who were given "the belt" anytime they were out of line, and it caused me to fear their fathers. I never want my children to be afraid of me or their father. I want them to be able to come to me when it comes to anything, and not worry that I’m going to punish them out of my own anger. I know there are several other sources they could turn to if they don’t feel 100% comfortable with me, and that’s something I’m not willing to give up. I'm not a perfect person, and I can't bring myself to feel anything but loathing for some who dare to hurt a child.

Gordon B. Hinckley, “Behold Your Little Ones,” Ensign, June 2001, 2

How fortunate, how blessed is the child who feels the affection of his parents. That warmth, that love will bear sweet fruit in the years that follow. In large measure the harshness that characterizes so much of our society is an outgrowth of harshness imposed on children years ago.

Once, when I met one of my childhood friends, there came a train of memories of the neighborhood in which we grew up. It was a microcosm of the world, with many varieties of people. They were a close-knit group, and I think we knew them all. I think, also, we loved them all—that is, except for one man. I must make a confession: at a point in my childhood I detested that man. I have since repented of that emotion, but as I look back, I can sense again the intensity of my feeling. His young boys were our friends, but I thought he was my enemy. Why this strong antipathy? Because he whipped his children with strap or stick or whatever came to hand as his vicious anger flared on the slightest provocation.

Perhaps I felt as I did because of the home in which I lived, where there was a father who, by some quiet magic, was able to discipline his children without the use of any instrument of punishment, though on occasion they may have deserved it.

I have seen the fruits of that neighbor’s temper come alive again in the troubled lives of his children. Every social worker, every duty officer in the emergency room of a large hospital, every policeman and judge can tell you similar stories. The whole tragic picture is one of beatings, kicking, slamming, and even of sexual assault on small children. And akin to these are those vicious men and women who exploit children for pornographic purposes.

No man or woman who is a professed follower of Christ or a professed member of this Church can engage in such practices without offending God and repudiating the teachings of His Son. It was Jesus Himself who, while holding before us the example of the purity and innocence of children, declared, “Whoso shall offend one of these little ones … , it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matt. 18:6).

Could there be a stronger denunciation of those who abuse children than these words spoken by the Savior of mankind? Do you want a spirit of love to grow in the world? Then begin within the walls of your own home. Behold your little ones and see within them the wonders of God, from whose presence they have recently come.

President Brigham Young once said: “A child loves the smiles of its mother, but hates her frowns. I tell the mothers not to allow the children to indulge in evils, but at the same time to treat them with mildness” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 340).

He further stated, “Bring up your children in the love and fear of the Lord; study their dispositions and their temperaments, and deal with them accordingly, never allowing yourself to correct them in the heat of passion; teach them to love you rather than to fear you” (Teachings, 172).

Of course, there is need for discipline with families. But discipline with severity, discipline with cruelty inevitably leads not to correction but rather to resentment and bitterness. It cures nothing and only aggravates the problem. It is self-defeating. The Lord, in setting forth the spirit of governance in His Church, has also set forth the spirit of governance in the home in these great words of revelation:

“No power or influence can or ought to be maintained … , only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; …

“Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

“That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death” (D&C 121:41, 43–44).

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From the above quote.

"Of course, there is need for discipline with families. But discipline with severity, discipline with cruelty inevitably leads not to correction but rather to resentment and bitterness."

This made me think of something after watching Super Nanny last night. The Super Nanny had set guideline of what not to tolerate and how to discipline these small children in this home. The situation was unique in that there were two women who were being coached. I came into the show late and asked my husband to catch me up on why there were two women. He told me that one was the mom and one was the aunt who baby-sits the children. Apparently the aunt was having a hard time accepting the guideline that the nanny set forth and she wanted to be liked by the children so was resistant on being firm. The nanny left but still recorded the events that were happening in the home. The aunt decided to but the children on the naughty spot when they misbehaved and reward them by moving up on "the chart" when they did good. The aunt became a believe in the system and the mom also learned to reward the good behavior and the praise the children when they did good.

As I watched the women as the nanny returned with the recorded events while the nanny was away a thought occurred to me. They all watched as the aunt firmly picked up her niece and took her to the stairs (naughty spot) for her time out. I watched as the aunt gasped as she watched herself do that and she showed what I thought to be embarrassment knowing that all could see her actions. The mom didn't flinch as she saw her sister discipline her child; there was not brutality, only firmness. Our children are not only ours to teach, they also belong to Our Father In Heaven. We should always think of these children as belonging to Him and treat them as if He will be watching our every move. I believe that He wants as to teach our children and to bring them up in righteousness. If our children are in fear of us we are doing something wrong. If they are in compliance with rules because clear on concise rules are in place then I believe that the Lord is pleased.

We all have rules that we must follow. If we break the law there are consequences that will be imposed. I was telling a friend the other day that we can not choose our consequences in most cases; we only have the ability to choose our choices

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  • 2 weeks later...

I always say, "I will always love you no matter what you do, although I may not like your action."

Last night we said our bedtime prayers. I always say a simple prayer and then let him say whatever he wishes to say to God. He said, "God, I'll always love you no matter what you do to me." .....

I just now read thru the rest of this thread, and this just jumped out at me Shanstress.... thank you so much for your loving heart..... and for sharing that sentence "I will always love you no matter what you do....:

I tell those I love also.... I will love you no matter what.... it's unconditional..... it's hard to put conditions on love. I'll love you IF..... just dosn't work for me.

and that little boy prayer to God.... "God, I'll always love you no matter what you do to me." .... That touched my heart so much today you'll never know... I think I'll repeat that to God myself.

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Thanks Lindy! It seems that I've been saying that a lot lately. I have a very mischievous child, always pushing the envelope and full of curiosity and energy. Last night I got so frustrated with him because he put an entire bottle of foot powder into his new shoes (and all over the carpet). After I scolded him, I once again told him that I love him even though he made a huge mess, but I would prefer he not do that again.

He told me that he'll love me no matter how much I get mad at him. Then he said, "Thank you SO MUCH for buying me these wonderful Elmo shoes. I LOVE them. I just wanted them to keep smelling good."

Could he please stay this age forever? JK - I look forward to all the various stages he will go through... at least until he's 16!

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I was wondering if anyone had come across an article or anything from someone with an advance degree in child psychology or child development where they have stated that "spanking is okay."

I have a friend who says that he will spank his children, because it worked for him. To me, furthering the pattern of corporal punishment with the reasoning of, "I was spanked and I'm okay," isn't a good enough reason to me. I was spanked, and it did not work for me. I have read a dozen different books since I became a parent, just so that I wouldn’t continue the patterns that I didn’t like in my childhood.

My friend and his wife have also spanked their young nephew while in their care. He wasn’t more than 2. Because of this, I'm very leery about leaving my son with him and his wife. Doesn't matter what I say or evidence I show him, he doesn't agree. I feel like, "hey do what you want with your own kids, but if you touch mine, I'll be calling the authorities."

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